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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 3:41 PM

wjcalhoun

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Joe
What do you mean that it was toed in an inch; the width of the gear strut at the wheel is only about 1.4"; do you mean that the struts were toed in by 30-40 degrees?
I have never seen that.

Some toe in is good for ground handing; as weight shifts to the outer wheel during a ground turn, toe-in helps with the turn, whereas toe-out opposes the turn.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 3:58 PM

JoeMamma

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wjcalhoun

Joe
What do you mean that it was toed in an inch; the width of the gear strut at the wheel is only about 1.4''; do you mean that the struts were toed in by 30-40 degrees?
I have never seen that.

Some toe in is good for ground handing; as weight shifts to the outer wheel during a ground turn, toe-in helps with the turn, whereas toe-out opposes the turn.

Thanks, but I understand toe-in principal and I could have lived with a little.

But the bottom of each strut (where the axle attaches and viewed directly from the bottom of each strut) was bent inward about 25 degrees. I placed a tape measure on the tires (at the front of each tire and at the rear of each tire) and found out I had a total of 1" (about 25 degrees on each strut) toe-in..........this is WAY too much. With the toe being that severe inward, it would have probably caused some drag.

Joe M.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 4:00 PM

wjcalhoun

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Agree that is too much; your struts were deformed. Does GP have an idea how that happened?

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 4:04 PM

microdon2

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wjc - actually your point about the other two bolts\nuts not reinforcing the other side is probably more relevant, as that would also distribute the stress over a larger area. I'm surprised any design engineer thought this split design was a good idea. Guess they do it so it'll fit inside the box easier?

JoeMamma - that's a strange problem. I'd ask TH to send you a replacement set, no shipping charges. (even if you HAVE bought other gear).

WHAT the bleep is going on at the Great Plains plant on China?? Also, I'm no manufacturing engineer, but I'm not even sure how these types of errors happen? Is someone from another mfg co messing with the machine settings?? Still, no excuse for QA not to catch it. OR is QA aware and they're letting these problems out the door anyway, hoping few will complain??

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 4:41 PM

lopflyers

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From what we hear here is more than a few. God only knows how many more we haven't hear from

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 5:45 PM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lopflyers

From what we hear here is more than a few. God only knows how many more we haven't hear from

It seems there are no less than four of us here complaining and of course I stated of one other that the guy is living with his as they are minor so that tells me that there are issues and folks just don't bother to tell GP. When I called Tower Hobbies they sort of acted like they had not heard of any issues. Yeah, right! Or maybe guys have not opened and look at their planes or bothered to call in any issues. When I buy an ARF, I no longer will leave it in the box without a careful inspection, once I am satisfied all is good-to-go then I will put the parts back in and then it can be saved for later.

My first 70 size Revolver was closed to perfect except for one of the elevator slots off a tad and the rear canopy gap and that was it. Wing pins were straight and the wings fit very nicely going on the wing tube and to the fuse. Plane flew and tracked beautifully. Being the second great GP ARF I have had I was impressed with GP planes. The reason I bought this one was because I missed that plane.

BTW, on the landing gear. What I did no my first revolver was to fit a small aluminum plate against the gear where it bolts on. I put the bolts through the plate and into the gear. Maybe this helped more than I realized as I never had any issues. I would always do this with split gear. To me it just makes sense as split gear don't have as much strength in the mount area.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 6:11 PM

Luchnia

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Just got off the phone with GP support. Spoke to a guy named Robert - very nice guy. He said just shoot him the photos and they would take a look. I told him to check out this thread as others are reporting issues and he said he would definitely do that.

I told him I would get him some photos as soon as I can and send them to airsupport@hobbico.com. If I get another set of wings I want to make sure they measure them and check the pins before sending them out. No use to get a set with the same issues.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 7:20 PM

wjcalhoun

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Luchnia and other who have had the issue with the anti-rotation pins not aligning:

Is it clear that the AR pins are misplaced in the wing root, or is it possible that the index holes are incorrectly placed in the fuse? May be a small point, but if we can figure it out, it might help GP sort out the QC issues.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 9:05 PM

landeck

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What I found on my second R70 was that the holes were drilled fine but on one wing the rotation pin was tilted such that it would not go in the hole in the fuselage. I had to file the end of the pin to allow it to fit the hole.

Bruce

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 9:59 PM

lopflyers

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 10:00 PM

lopflyers

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I just came back from flying mine. It is just perfect.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 10:07 PM

microdon2

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I've had that too, where the anti-rotation pins were not perfectly square. As stated you can file it down, or, possibly, grab it with a channellocks, rotate it (to break the glue) and re-epoxy it in, square this time.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 10:46 PM

RoyR

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I’m not sure what type problem some of you are having with the split gear. My gear also broke off from turning while taxiing. It was similar to the picture u2fletch posted. What little glue was on the LG block just did not hold. When the block pulled loose all that was holding the gear on was some small strips of 1/16 plywood, which easily broke. It was also easily repaired and epoxied back, so it won’t break in that particular place again.
Are there other problems with the gear? The gear itself is solidly attached to the plywood block even if the bolts are in a straight line. That will make no difference on whether the block comes off from lack of glue. If it is the plywood block that comes out every time, I can’t see what good reinforcing the gear with a plate joining the two halves, or changing the bolt pattern would do.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/28/2013 11:17 PM

microdon2

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RoyR -

I see two major problems with the stock gear config. The split means that, unless you hit both wheels at exactly the same time, you're getting a lot of torque on one side, which is supported by only two bolts\nuts, instead of four. My gut says that that momentary stress increases the chance of failure of the supporting fuse area. This is magnified by what we have known for years now is an already weak LG area. This force is also increased when you have a rough landing or have the uneven stresses of a grass field.

The problem I see with in-line bolts is that the general force of a landing on the gear is not only straight up into the fuse, but also back. The length of the gear acts as a lever against those bolts\nuts, magnifying any longitudinal force. A box formation gives you longitidinal support to handle this stress - a line-formation does not. I have seen Revolver gear where only one side of the gear split out, and, in another instance, folded under. I have never seen a failure on my setup, despite some rough landings (and crashes!)

Could the stock gear formation hold if you keep reinforcing every time it fails? Probably, eventually. But I'd rather avoid all the pain and suspense and address this weakness up front. But that's just my preference from my experience.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 12:06 AM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wjcalhoun

Luchnia and other who have had the issue with the anti-rotation pins not aligning:

Is it clear that the AR pins are misplaced in the wing root, or is it possible that the index holes are incorrectly placed in the fuse? May be a small point, but if we can figure it out, it might help GP sort out the QC issues.

It is the pins. It looks like someone just did not get them straight when they glued them in. The hole may even be crooked. The fuse is fine and looks very nice. It did not even have many wrinkles in it. It is not a big deal to fix the wing pins as you could either remove the pin and make sure the hole is corrected in the wing, then replace the pin or you could file it down to fit. I think it is just the aggravation of this being a new plane and out of the box having rather poor workmanship on the wings - something you don't expect from GP.

If you are buying a 100 dollar CMP or Nitromodels you would figure to have cross drilled holes, wrong size bolts, misaligned wing pins, servo bays off, etc., but just not something expected from GP product. I can certainly fix my issues, however I decided to let GP know and give them an opportunity to respond to see what they would do.

Again mine is fixable and to me that is not the question. The question is should I fix it and let it slide? The Revolver is not a hundred dollar plane. It is just a tad under 240 and at that a bargain for the type of flyer it is. If GP does nothing it won't upset me at all, however it could sway my next purchase. At least they have the info and I told them to check this forum out.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 4:23 AM

VictoryRoll

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Luchnia... ditto... I am in your corner, my friend and totally agree. These are what is simply described as "Manufacturer's Defects", and NOT the responsibility of the consumer to design, develop and employ fixes for issues/problems that were caused by the factory/manufacturer.

I am NOT a fan of modifying the wing pins or the fuselage so that the alignment pins fit, for the sake of having them fit. This is called "incidence" or angle of attack of the wing. It is not my responsibility to modify, fix, or orrect in any manner whatsoever this defect and I could possibly (and if you know me, definitely, lol) change the angle so that the plane is nonfunctional, unpredictable and could possibly cost me more than the cost of the ARF itself (i.e. engine, servos, etc, etc).

If GP was unwilling to take responsibility, I would be upset, but the opposite is true. They have ONLY been MORE than willing to work with me (and it seems many others), to get this remedied. It will take time, no doubt, since the USA operation needs to compile all of the issues, verify and then convert the problems/issues and document them in a readable, transferable state to the factory in China. I give them the slack that is appropriately needed so that this situation, as a whole, is fixed, once and for all. I trust GP to do that, as that is their history and track record. Not that I am raising the GP flag and all, but "crap" happens, and it seems the crap has hit the fan on this specific ARF.

As always, I will keep you informed of my trials & tribulations with this frustrating conundrum.

Meanwhile, communicate, convey, document and keep on top of your situation and together we will survive and hopefully cause change/improvement.

I too, am frustrated, but I look for action from GP, not BS or being run in circles.

Best to all,

Don

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 4:32 AM

RoyR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia

It is the pins. It looks like someone just did not get them straight when they glued them in. The hole may even be crooked. The fuse is fine and looks very nice. It did not even have many wrinkles in it. It is not a big deal to fix the wing pins as you could either remove the pin and make sure the hole is corrected in the wing, then replace the pin or you could file it down to fit. I think it is just the aggravation of this being a new plane and out of the box having rather poor workmanship on the wings - something you don't expect from GP.

If you are buying a 100 dollar CMP or Nitromodels you would figure to have cross drilled holes, wrong size bolts, misaligned wing pins, servo bays off, etc., but just not something expected from GP product. I can certainly fix my issues, however I decided to let GP know and give them an opportunity to respond to see what they would do.

Again mine is fixable and to me that is not the question. The question is should I fix it and let it slide? The Revolver is not a hundred dollar plane. It is just a tad under 240 and at that a bargain for the type of flyer it is. If GP does nothing it won't upset me at all, however it could sway my next purchase. At least they have the info and I told them to check this forum out.

I agree with what you said. From a cheap plane, just bite the bullet and repair it yourself. But relatively speaking, the Revolver is at a price that we should not be having minor problems, much less the major problems that are being reported here.
Initially i thought, 'why not just make these repairs myself and get it flying?' If I had not had the bad cowl I probably would not have sent anything back. But to get replacement parts that have the same problem, and to hear many people are having the same problem, that is not acceptable. If they claim to be quality airplanes and charge a quality price then we should get quality. Maybe a misaligned pin every now and then, but not as many as I have been reading about, and certainly the servo cutouts should not be different on Any of the wings.

So my answer to you, if you can afford to wait, is to send it back or ask for replacements, and keep asking until you get something you don't have to repair before you use. Maybe they will begin to see that something is wrong.
Had I known all the issues I have had beforehand, I would have kept asking for replacements. There is really no excuse for these airplanes to be like this.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 12:01 PM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RoyR

So my answer to you, if you can afford to wait, is to send it back or ask for replacements, and keep asking until you get something you don't have to repair before you use. Maybe they will begin to see that something is wrong.
Had I known all the issues I have had beforehand, I would have kept asking for replacements. There is really no excuse for these airplanes to be like this.

Good post and I do agree. I have plenty of planes and in not in a hurry to build this one. I just want to make sure it is right is why I pulled it out of the box and that thanks to you guys posting these problems on the forums. I could have had this plane for a year or two and then opened it up and found these issues.

This has reminded me on any new plane purchase to open the box, remove ALL the parts and look them over and even make sure they all fit. I can always put everything back and put it away for later. I mostly bought this Rev 70 because I liked my last one enough to have one on hand.

If I were building this plane it would be important to me to make sure my customers are getting the product in top condition as I believe GP will do. More than that though is to get to the bottom of why these planes are slipping out with some of this shoddy workmanship. Just the wrinkling alone in the wings has amazed me for a GP product - again maybe expected from some el-cheapo plane, but not GP.

Since they are coming from different vendors with problems there should be concern about the quality of the shipment. The two we bought came from TH. There could be twenty five or thirty or many more of these out there sitting in boxes with these quality issues.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 1:00 PM

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Guess I'm still too used to having to build it if I wanted to fly it. Maybe more forgiving of having to tweak a few things while doing the final assembly? Maybe old age just makes me more forgiving?

When I got back into the hobby after a 15 year hiatus 5 or 6 years ago, I thought the degree of prefabrication available in ARFs was awesome! When I look at this 200 dollar kit I see extreme value, even if I have to beef up the gear or possibly fit a few other parts I'm not happy with? Doesn't bother me at all?

I think people should slow down and smell the roses. Asking for perfection in a 200 dollar kit is a bit much. Doubling that price may legitimize this griping? Maybe they should have a second/premium model available with a higher degree of prefab available for those that want the plane assembled in one 4 hour session? As it is, with the work required to straighten out the few known issues taking an extra evening or 2 (including fabing up an alum reinforcement that will make the landing gear mount nearly indestructible) just doesn't seem that much to ask for your return on the investment?

Consider your options? How many other choices do we have in this price, size and weight range that will handle 20cc's like this plane does? How many of those have replacement parts even available?

Yes, I do get the fact that it wouldn't take that much to eliminate some of these issues, especially if there were a shorter path to travel from those constructing the kits to those that are doing final assembly. From that standpoint I can see the purpose for all these notes. Otherwise, I think we're beating up on one of the better kits available to us right now? That's me though. FWIW, -Al

< Message edited by ahicks -- 1/29/2013 1:35 PM >

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 2:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks

Guess I'm still too used to having to build it if I wanted to fly it. Maybe more forgiving of having to tweak a few things while doing the final assembly? Maybe old age just makes me more forgiving?

When I got back into the hobby after a 15 year hiatus 5 or 6 years ago, I thought the degree of prefabrication available in ARFs was awesome! When I look at this 200 dollar kit I see extreme value, even if I have to beef up the gear or possibly fit a few other parts I'm not happy with? Doesn't bother me at all?

I think people should slow down and smell the roses. Asking for perfection in a 200 dollar kit is a bit much. Doubling that price may legitimize this griping? Maybe they should have a second/premium model available with a higher degree of prefab available for those that want the plane assembled in one 4 hour session? As it is, with the work required to straighten out the few known issues taking an extra evening or 2 (including fabing up an alum reinforcement that will make the landing gear mount nearly indestructible) just doesn't seem that much to ask for your return on the investment?

Consider your options? How many other choices do we have in this price, size and weight range that will handle 20cc's like this plane does? How many of those have replacement parts even available?

Yes, I do get the fact that it wouldn't take that much to eliminate some of these issues, especially if there were a shorter path to travel from those constructing the kits to those that are doing final assembly. From that standpoint I can see the purpose for all these notes. Otherwise, I think we're beating up on one of the better kits available to us right now? That's me though. FWIW, -Al

+1 I have built at least 100 kit or scratch planes in the last 60 years and correcting things like a tilted anti-rotation pin I do not consider a big deal. I consider the R70 one of the best designed and flying planes I have seen. Yes, I have had to add a bar across the landing gear and beef up the glueing on the inside of the landing gear mount. And, yes I had to file down the anti-rotation pins, iron out wrinkles in the covering, and add glue to the aileron servo boxes. But in the end it was no big deal and I ended up with a great looking and flying plane.

Bruce

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 2:58 PM

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I love reading when guys who have been building planes for 60 years say that the Revolver is one of the best designed and flying planes they've seen. Makes me feel good! (and even at $240 I still think it's a bargain!)

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 4:03 PM

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I think most are just saying that even a small effort to increase quality control could yield big results as far as the final "out of the box" condition of these ARF's. Have the work stations spend a few extra seconds to make sure there is enough glue in the places that really need it and maybe pull a few kits out of every 50 or so and check them for obvious defects. Sure we get a pretty good product at a decent price, but I think everyone would actually spend a little more money if they saw a substantial increase in quality. i've been lucky with my two 70's. Really nothing more than a few wrinkles to iron out. I have beefed up my landing gear area after they ripped out once and that really is my only gripe about this aircraft.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 5:00 PM

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I'm not trying to be a hard case, but I too am an old guy and have been flying RC since the 70s, Built more kits and scratch built than I can remember, so I know how to build. I have bought and assembled my share of ARFs, and have come across good and bad. I would agree with the above statements up to a point, and for me that point was crossed with this Revolution. I had recently purchased a Great Planes Escapade to break into electrics larger than park flyers, and loved the way it went together. The design of the Revolution seemed similar, but the quality was out of control on the bad side. In my "Many" years of building I have never bought an ARF with wrinkles as bad as this one had, even with the very cheap el cheapos. I can also understand some of the alignment pins being off, but not as many as I read about here. (and for me the pins were off on 4 different wings) And for the record I did remove and realign the pins myself, but that is not something you should have to do if buying an ARF. The servo cutouts are also unacceptable. That's why they are built on jigs, so they can all be made the same and all fit.
Yes, I can accept some slip ups every now and then, but to have this many similar problems with this many different people is a sign that something is slipping through and should be corrected.

I will also add, I have been flying my Revolution. I corrected all the mistakes myself except the cowl which was too badly damaged to use. So yes, these things can be fixed with a little work. But I can’t understand letting it slide on this kit when there are much less quality and less expensive kits with much less problems than the Revolution.

I imagine most of you have been buying and driving cars for years also, and how many of you would not take a new car back if the radio didn’t work, or there were large scratches down the paint, or the wheels wobbled, even if you were a master mechanic?

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RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 6:15 PM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: afjetmech
I think most are just saying that even a small effort to increase quality control could yield big results as far as the final ''out of the box'' condition of these ARF's. Have the work stations spend a few extra seconds to make sure there is enough glue in the places that really need it and maybe pull a few kits out of every 50 or so and check them for obvious defects. Sure we get a pretty good product at a decent price, but I think everyone would actually spend a little more money if they saw a substantial increase in quality. i've been lucky with my two 70's. Really nothing more than a few wrinkles to iron out. I have beefed up my landing gear area after they ripped out once and that really is my only gripe about this aircraft.

I see and understand both sides of this issue totally. I have fixed some of the worse ARFs imagineable - one was a PHP Edge 30cc (a total workmanship disaster). I spent hours upon hours fixing the plane because I "got a deal." Granted it flies good now, but I could have just paid more and got a better plane. I don't intend to buy another one, unless it is almost free.

Something more rides along with the GP name. Could I have fixed the Rev, absolutely. Should I have fixed it? I debated on that question for quite some time and I thought about the quality of GP planes and that is why I decided to let them know. I fly my ARFs with some guys that are builders and have some well built planes. I have had many compliments on the Rev 70 and I could hear them now talking about the wing pins being poorly installed.

I just received an email from airsupport at GP and they are sending me out a set of wing blanks. I think that is very reasonable as long as the wing blanks are ok. The way I am looking at it is if the wing that is the worse one can be exchanged then I am good-to-go and applaud GP for their great support. I told them I had no problem fixing the other minor issues. GP has a great support team and seems to me they do a fantastic job.

Here are some more thoughts about this. If you were the manufacturer would you be satisfied that your planes were going out severely wrinkled, cannot put the wings on, and some servo bays so misaligned that you have to do modifications to? Just ponder this for a moment or two. I am always proud of what I build and know GP holds to that standard and I can bet they do not want thier name brought down over some poor quality control issues.

If there is a chance that a plane will have issues when we buy it one would wonder why there is not a disclaimer on the web site covering such, ex "You may notice on our airframes there may be misaligned wing pins, improperly cut servo bays, and improperly glued landing gear blocks which can result in problems such as the wings won't fit." and so forth?

Wrinkles are a known with covering as temps change, but faulty build issues is another matter entirely. I am still trying to figure out if not being able to put the wings on is an acceptable issue even if you are a builder. How do you builders view that?

This in no way implies that the Rev 70 is not a great bargain and a fantastic plane, nor is it a slam against Great Planes.

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(in reply to afjetmech)

Post #: 6399

RE: Larger Revolver - 1/29/2013 8:38 PM

landeck

Posts: 1616
Score: 137
Joined: 11/6/2007
Last Login: 5/22/2013
From: Sandy Springs, GA, USA
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The one thing we all seem to agree on is that the R70 is a good looking and great flying airplane!

Bruce

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Bruce L. AMA# 54227
Ultra Sport Brotherhood #15

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(in reply to Luchnia)

Post #: 6400

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