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thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/16/2009 8:06 PM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		JEZZZZ......

got out my beetle this evening running away as normal.TRYING TO TAKE IT EASY ACTUALLY...running away for half hour or so all fine.then 3/4 way through video MAD WHEELIE popping action, it goes crazy with wheelies {{uncontrolable allmost}}  then BOOM never saw anything like this it SPLIT elcon spur gear in half..........told you this engine was nuts!!!  

see pics & vid..

must sent this gear back to elcon an expensive helical cut one.
i have my replacment gear here ready.  {see pic}

keep in mind everything was set up perfect on car,the gear just gave way under the tremendous power.

SEE IN VID WHERE GEAR BREAKS TOWARDS the end,you can hear it lol


VID:

http://www.vimeo.com/7100563




< Message edited by dc2 man -- 11/16/2009 4:00 PM >

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/16/2009 8:11 PM   
DarkFire989



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Status: online 		Thats crazy damage.

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/16/2009 9:32 PM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		people the reason for me posting a few extra threads recently was solely for the purpose of a build thats going on for a long time,i recently put together enough money to finish this project and im VERY excited about it...hence the few new threads.i suppose being a project i done nothing with for a long time i wanted to post up a few new things.

im sure the nice people here understand.

from now on everything will be kept in my own thread

this is a one off project for me and this beetle is now done........
it wouldnt run in FG format due to the heavy bashing i give it but elcon came to rescue....

apart from the gear today lol

cheers.


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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 12:07 AM   
Lars from Norway



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Status: offline 		Isnt helicals supposed to be stronger as they mash with two teeth at the same time?Anyway,something crazy has been going on there!

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 12:13 AM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		nothing crazy....you have seen the video,after the batch of wheelies it just snapped!!

its the engine,believe it or not i have never broke a gear in my life,the car has no week point what so ever,it is very powerfull and heavy so i presume something had to give.

im actually convienced now that maybe a screw or two had came out of the gear/adaptor and caused the gear not to line up properly ....hence the snapping gear..

this is my only feesable theory.
i have build l/scale cars/trucks for years and never had this happen.


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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 12:17 AM   
waqr



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Status: offline 		That is a sick engine man Is there some kind of warranty on those expensive Elcon gears?

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 12:26 AM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		i hope so man........lol
i must get in touch with elcon now directly as i must get warrenty on that gear .......expensive little gears over 70euro each or more.

thats why i started up this thread cause i never saw a gear to breal like that in my LIFE.....


man i couldnt even imagine this engine in a stock PLASTIC fg lol


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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 5:01 AM   
bentley marshall


 

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Status: offline 		like you posted befor you think it was missing 2 screws i would say no warranty becouse it was not fitted corectly any motor would have broken it

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 5:53 AM   
Wild YFZ 450



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Status: offline 		Yea, Should have used some Loc-tite....

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 7:09 AM   
Bad boy Hobby


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bentley marshall

like you posted befor you think it was missing 2 screws i would say no warranty becouse it was not fitted corectly any motor would have broken it



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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/17/2009 1:38 PM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		well the reason i cant justify screws missing cause they were all loctited.

dont worry elcon WILL be sending me a new gear........

i never seen a gear like this to be cut in half, no engine ever done that,i have often have had screws missing.

dc2


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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/18/2009 2:37 AM   
splcrazy


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars from Norway

Isnt helicals supposed to be stronger as they mash with two teeth at the same time?Anyway,something crazy has been going on there!

i always knew helical gears to work extremely well in diffs , but as spur gears ive always had doubts, and the fact that these helical spur gears are constructed like a ring weakens the whole system down, if it was a full solid construction instead of ring design it never would have broken in half like this , it would have just smashed a few teeth but thats about it. if i get the FG MT elcon drive train i will use the normal gears or just replace them to all steel , but even steel or hardened steel doesnt last that long either , ive mashed hardned steel gears in my 5b using bullet proof clutch carrier's so there you go

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/18/2009 2:41 AM   
Dirty_Vinylpusher



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quote:

i have often have had screws missing



That's funny on so many levels.




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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/18/2009 2:46 AM   
splcrazy


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirty_Vinylpusher

quote:

i have often have had screws missing



That's funny on so many levels.




LOL yeah ,apart from the joke lol , its just stupid what happened here and if some screws were missing to cause this failure its just stupid design , and hell yes any motor would have caused that damage regardless of how much engine power

< Message edited by splcrazy -- 10/18/2009 10:08 AM >

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/18/2009 4:47 PM   
Lars from Norway



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quote:

ORIGINAL: splcrazy
i always knew helical gears to work extremely well in diffs , but as spur gears ive always had doubts, and the fact that these helical spur gears are constructed like a ring weakens the whole system down, if it was a full solid construction instead of ring design it never would have broken in half like this , it would have just smashed a few teeth but thats about it. if i get the FG MT elcon drive train i will use the normal gears or just replace them to all steel , but even steel or hardened steel doesnt last that long either , ive mashed hardned steel gears in my 5b using bullet proof clutch carrier's so there you go


I always think to myself there must be some reason for why the rally and high performance cars are using straight cut gears!The gearboxes are a lot more stronger than helical cut gears which is used in regular cars.

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/19/2009 2:20 AM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		UPDATE:

mmm i found the problem,an old part i used as part of the rebuild,it was slightly bent and cost me an elcon helical gear

the layshaft was bent slightly causing the spur gear to wobble a little...

problem solved,time for an elcon layshaft to match the rest of beetle.




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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/19/2009 3:13 AM   
SAVAGEJIM



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From: Torchy the Fiery Fast RC Turtl, USA
Status: offline 		That is some seriously sick damage there. Testimony that your engine has tremendous torque to do this. I have an ESP modded G270 Zen and even with 5(FIVE) screws missing, there is no way that it will exert as much force like your engine did.

See my next post for my thought on why the gear failed, I am replying to Lars' post.

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/19/2009 3:22 AM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		jim thanks for your opinion here man...

man ill tell you a good one,i now am at car and looking back that was a new layshaft IT BENT THAT ALSO....

good god thats serious damage,now i suspect there was nothing wrong only the power......

i have a competition layshaft ordered as they are stronger.
the stock are strong and its wobbleing in my hand lol


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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/19/2009 3:28 AM   
SAVAGEJIM



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lars from Norway

Isnt helicals supposed to be stronger as they mash with two teeth at the same time?Anyway,something crazy has been going on there!


In this case, I believe that the gear is weaker because it is missing a substantial amount of material in the middle; it is a "doughnut" or ring gear instead of a solid single piece gear. The reason why I think this is because none of the teeth on what is left on the gear are stripped or look like they are about to be stripped off.

The helical cut teeth are superior to a straight cut gear with the exact same tooth thickness along the gear pitch. The reason why a straight cut hear will be stronger, assuming the very same metallurgy, is because the teeth are bigger with a larger pitch to accommodate the thicker teeth.

Here is an illustration from Wiki (There are better sites that describe gear design, but I was too lazy to search more in depth):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gear_words.png


Based on no missing teeth on the gear (at least what we can see of it), this causes me to think that the fact that this gear is a ring is the cause of failure. The material missing in the middle (the "doughnut" hole) therefore is structural support material that does not reinforce the gear ring. And the ring is now able to twist and bend sideways more easily as the engine's torque transmit forces onto the spur. And combined with one or two screws missing from the cross piece gear adaptor, the gear ring is allowed to twist and bend even more; to positions beyond the failure point.

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/19/2009 11:20 AM   
Foxy



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Status: offline 		I always believed (of my own volition), that straight cut gears were used in full scale racing due to the fact that they make significantly less friction to helical cut ones due to less contact area. Helical cut last longer, but straight are more efficient basically. Anyone who knows for sure, feel free to correct me.

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/19/2009 11:21 AM   
splcrazy


 

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From: melb, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		hey i been doing some research on the FG drivetrain , and they say you have to use elcon layshaft from the begining to complete the package or else damage will result as you have found out here , i cannot remember which site it was makes me sound like a liar lol i have like over 50 bookmarks of hobby sites lol , all i remember is thats what they said or if you dont get the helical gears you must change the main pinion gear to 14t
quote:

ORIGINAL: dc2 man

UPDATE:

mmm i found the problem,an old part i used as part of the rebuild,it was slightly bent and cost me an elcon helical gear

the layshaft was bent slightly causing the spur gear to wobble a little...

problem solved,time for an elcon layshaft to match the rest of beetle.






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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/19/2009 2:22 PM   
dc2 man


 

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From: limerick, IRELAND
Status: offline 		well i have ordered a 16t 46  {actually waiting on wolfgang from hobbythek to e-mail me back with them best spur/clutch combo}  to match the helical layshaft/diff combo.

anybody here suggest the best ratio for spur/clutch.

i have mentioned the ratio here for me elcon helical set up on the diff /layshaft which im currently running someplace but its an odd size.

anyway here is the gears & new style spur adaptor thats available to custumers from hobbythek,they are a good deal as the spur comes with a new designed spur adaptor alloy.
i have one ordered in order to get this running again

http://www.rc-car-online-shop.de/lshop,showdetail,26417,e,1255948038-27477,tuning.zahnraeder.zahnrad_st,y0190_46,,Tshowrubtuning.zahnraeder.zahnrad_st,.htm

.


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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/22/2009 4:54 AM   
rangerfredbob


 

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Status: offline 		Helical gears are stronger, they most likely use straight cut gears in racing because there are no thrust forces involved in straight cut gears, and racing uses custom ratios, and straight cut gears are MUCH easier to machine (think about it). Helical gears are used on cars because they are stronger and quieter, more contact time on each tooth, most cheap cars use straight cut gears in reverse (if you stand around in a parking lot, you can hear the winding noise they make) because they are cheaper, no one drives in reverse long enough to complain about the noise.

the reason that broke was probably a combination of that bent shaft and the design of the gear, all of those lightening holes in the ring cause areas for stress concentration (places to break), that and the large distance between mounting holes. Helical gears have side loads due to their design, put a lot of torque against them and they will push to the side pretty hard, throw in another issue like the bent shaft and things can go bad... it probably wouldn't have broken if the gear adapter piece was a full circle instead of a cross.

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RE: thread wrong pics.....off topic - 10/23/2009 11:53 AM   
*AT*Transmissions


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dc2 man

well i have ordered a 16t 46  {actually waiting on wolfgang from hobbythek to e-mail me back with them best spur/clutch combo}  to match the helical layshaft/diff combo.

anybody here suggest the best ratio for spur/clutch.

i have mentioned the ratio here for me elcon helical set up on the diff /layshaft which im currently running someplace but its an odd size.

anyway here is the gears & new style spur adaptor thats available to custumers from hobbythek,they are a good deal as the spur comes with a new designed spur adaptor alloy.
i have one ordered in order to get this running again

http://www.rc-car-online-shop.de/lshop,showdetail,26417,e,1255948038-27477,tuning.zahnraeder.zahnrad_st,y0190_46,,Tshowrubtuning.zahnraeder.zahnrad_st,.htm

.



Better take one of these: http://www.pitstop-shop.nl/nl/dept_407.html
And than part nr. 0798
You have the option to put 3 different gearwheels on 1 carrier...
The gearwheels are carbonitrated, very strong.
( i know, we used to produced those gearwheels ourselves)
Many drivers here in the Netherlands drive around with those gears...

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