Setting max rpm for P 120  
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> RC Jets >> Turbine Clinic >> JetCat Turbine Direct Support >> Setting max rpm for P 120
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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/3/2003 9:25:46 PM   
jonkoppisch



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Hi,
I have a p120 on a kangaroo. I'm wanting to limit the rpm's for thrust so that I'm at least close to ama specs on the .9 thrust to weight ratio. What rpm is around 20-21 lbs thrust and is this the correct way to go about limiting the rpm without buying the speed controller? Jon

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, - 7/4/2003 6:26:44 AM   
bcovish



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According to the chart I got from Jetcat. 20 lbs is about 108,300 and 112,000 is about 22 lbs. These can very slightly from engine to engine.

That is the best way to limit your engine in-lieu-of a speed limiter.

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Bob-O
Austin TX

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/4/2003 6:30:34 AM   
jonkoppisch



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Great! Thanks for the info. Jon

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/5/2003 6:42:29 AM   
don b


 

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Jon It is great that you want to follow the AMA regulations and make our sport safe and responsible.
You limiting the rpm and thrust does not meet the AMA requirements.
A Jet Cat rep with access to the boss mode needs to go in and set the maximum rpm on your engine. Thus limiting the thrust to a .9 thrust to weight ratio.
When this is done you can not go back in and change the rpm. to a higher setting.
This is why the speed limiter is a better way to go, you can have the power for take off, go arounds , and vertical. and still meet the AMA requirements.

Thanks Don B Miniature Turbine S & S Jet Cat Dealer


Thought I should add these AMA Safety Regulations to our discussion.

# 513 AMA Documents
SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR FIXED/ROTARY WING MODEL AIRCRAFT GAS TURBINES

# 2 For fixed wing aircraft: The max. installed static Thrust to Weight ratio shall be .9 (dry) unless a speed limiter is used.

# 17 De-tuned engine thrust settings will be accepted. The pilot must provide manufacture documentation.

I think Manufacture documentation would mean that they adjusted the thrust, and provided the pilot with a document.

thanks again

Don B Miniature Turbine S & S

< Message edited by Don B -- Jul 8 2003 5:24AM >

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/5/2003 6:53:53 AM   
jonkoppisch



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I really believe that the safest way to fly is to know when to throttle back. Just like the giant scale aerobatic planes, there's more than enough power (way more than .9 ratio) to tear the plane apart, you just have to be responsible enough to throttle back a little!! Having a 'waiver' or a giant scale plane doesn't mean that you're automatically 'responsible'. Just my ranting and raving :^) Jon

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RPM - 7/5/2003 9:12:46 AM   
bcovish



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Don, I'm not quite sure on what you are saying about limiting the RPM to achieve a certain thrust level.

Are you saying that a Jetcat owner can't go in dail down the rpm and that it has to be done by a Jetcat rep?

If I read you wrong, I'm sorry. Just curious.

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Austin TX

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/5/2003 9:38:02 AM   
DavidR



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Don,

The rules (AMA document 513) only state that the thrust to weight be set to .9 to 1 if a speedlimiter is not used. Otherwise use a speedlimiter. No where does it spell out that a "rep" or manufacturer must set the max RPM. Item 17 says that detuned engine thrust settings are acceptable but the pilot must provide manufacturer documentation. This is on JetCat's website for any of the engines in the form of a thrust vs rpm chart.

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/5/2003 11:12:23 AM   
bcovish



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Thanks David for clearing that up.

I thought I was missing something there for awhile.

I don't think the rpm - thrust chart is on JC's site. At least I can't find it. Bob Wilcox e-mailed me a chart for the 120

Hope all goes well for you. Busy building Bobcats. (2)

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Austin TX

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/5/2003 12:54:16 PM   
DavidR



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Bob,

The Thrust to RPM chart for the P-160 is there, and the one for the P-120 used to be there as well, I can't seem to find it now though.

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/5/2003 3:20:46 PM   
jonkoppisch



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Here's the link to the chart. [URL=http://www.jetcatusa.com/faq.htm#Thrust]P120 RPM to thrust chart.[/URL]



Jon

< Message edited by jonkoppisch -- Jul 5 2003 9:17PM >


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Enforcing the 0.9 T/W Rule Redux Redux Redux - 7/5/2003 9:08:10 PM   
Tom Antlfinger



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A little history here.....

Don and David are both right....depending on how you interpret, or more accurately, how the AMA and it's insurers interpret 513/17........"provide manufacturer documentation" specifically.

About 4 years ago, when the first KJ-66 engines appeared that were capable of 120N(read P-120) there was allot of discussion on RCO and RC Digest about whether user detuning was acceptable, OR whether the intent of the AMA was to "provide manufacturer documentation" that the max RPM was set at the factory, and not restorable by the end user.

At one point this became quite testy, since it got into the RAM vs JETCAT debate, since when the P-120's first came out and I got mine(5th one into the USA), I was one of very few people who could really exceed the 0.9 limit on allot of different planes with a KJ-66 size engine, since RAM was still running only about 17-18 lbs on their 750F's at the time. I was INFORMED by a couple of high-profile RAM owners(David not included) at Superman that I was totally illegal if I just turned the RPM down.....even threatened to check me during my entire flight....be sure I didn't flip a mix switch to bring back full RPM ......report me to the AMA.....pure nonsense, deserving of a finger-flag.....and it all disappeared when RAM finally brought out their 120N engines.....and was finally put to rest at last when everyone "Made the switch".....thanks for little favors!!

Until we hear differently from the AMA via a 513/17 Rule Change, end users apparently can use the charts to set their MAX THRUST and, by the same token, are also allowed to set their speed limiters.

If an individual chooses to violate the T/W Rule, then it's ultimately between him and the insurance company anyway, if there is a claim.

Tom

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Setting max rpm for P 120 - 7/6/2003 1:59:42 AM   
DavidR



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On another related note the speedlimiter can be a lot of fun. I am running one on my Bobcat with a P-160 and anyone who has seen it will definetly agree I have unlimited vertical performance while maintaining a sensible speed such that the airframe won't come apart by exceeding the Vne. With the JetCat speedlimiter you also have a cruise control function that is a lot of fun to play around with as well.

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just a question or is it a thought... - 8/11/2003 6:44:11 PM   
Scott Strimple



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All of the talk about the AMA .9-1 T/W ratio is great, but I have seen very little dialog beyond the "black and white" .9-1 rule.

Its no secret (or is it?) why the .9-1 rule...
The Thrust to Wt. chart is calibrated for a "std" day (so I have been led to believe)...ie. 29.92 in merc. Sea Lvl and 59 deg F.

(Arts Hobbies Thrst vs RPM chart used here)

This being the case and all other things being equal:
a pilot in Florida at virtually Sea Level sets his ECU for a P120 at max rpm of 115k, this equates to roughly 22.5 lbs on a "std" day, and meets his .9-1 thrust to wt params of his ultra cool super speedster standoff scale Korean war jet model that weighs 25lbs.

At the same time in Denver Co. a pilot has the same model and engine type and as you may guess after reading the AMA docs ...adjusts his P120 to the same 115k rpm setting for the same reasoning as our Floridian pilot.

The question/stmt here is now: at what point do we consider some system knowledge and situational circumstances to our particular case. The pilot in Denver at 115k rpm and a pressure altitude of thousands of feet higher than the Floridian pilot will be developing far less thrust than the .9 -1 he thought he was getting, not to mention the degradation in airfoil efficiancy due to the same factors. Without far more sophisticated hardware and software our little "hobby" jet engines are gonna loose thrust as temps increase and as altitude increases for any given Max RPM. So is there room to use common sense within the AMA guidelines... IMHO I would say yes!

Ok ... go ahead ...blast away...I just had to get it out...whew!

Scott Strimple


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Hi Scott - 8/11/2003 8:03:59 PM   
mr_matt



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There is a simple solution...the rule is for "installed thrust". These conversion tables are just a reference, to do it right you need a scale to measure the static thrust installed in the plane, presumably in your prevailing atmospheric condition.

Now of course if you travel with the plane you have the same issue, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Thrust testing at events has never seemed viable IMHO.

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Matt
JetCat rep

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