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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/10/2003 7:37:15 PM   
Tattoo



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From: Wichita, KS,
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quote:

I'll try to answer your rhetorical question while risking being branded an "unholy" troll.


I have seen the light, you're not the unholy troll you once were, you are indeed Father Reverend Balsa.

quote:

Some people believe payoff is proportional to investment


Some people see me pull out my Spa3d, and they see a $5 airplane that is ugly. They see an airplane that took me an hour to build and don't think it's fair. They see me having a blast, defying the ground, with thumb reactions I never dreamed of, and think I am an instant gratification junkie. Some don't think this is modeling. Well, I have to ask, how did it come to be?

Here is what the Spa3d represents to me.

It is the culmination of everything that came before it. It started by not being happy with the grocery store gliders my Mom got me when I was 6. Even then I was modding them. It didn't take long before old school notebooks became gliders.

My first store bought kite broke in half. I wasn't even in second grade yet and I discovered that I could make something better myself than I could buy. When my first dowel rod/trash bag kite took to the sky, I learned the satisfaction of something I designed far outweighed something designed by someone else.

By third grade I bought an Estes model rocket. My $2 investment rotted at the top of a tree that was too tall to climb. All my rockets after that were made from paper towel tubes for pennies and flew just as good as my buddies store bought rockets.

My Cox PT-19 exploded after it's first figure 9 into the parking lot. The engine promptly went onto a flying wing made out of thin door skin, and I'll be darned if my first attempt at a C/L plane didn't loop great!

From 4th grade through high school I built everything from Lil' Wizzards to Lil' Satans to my pride and joy ringmaster. I became a master at dope and tissue. Not a single one was ever stock. Larger wings and bigger control surfaces made better flyers. I never bought the same plane twice. Yet flew many versions of each. Most were scratched for much less paper route money.

I built somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 Balsa R/C airplanes from 77-98. Again, not once did I leave one stock. I was never satisfied by flying something that someone else had already proven would work. You can ask Kraut, I was the king of kit bashing. Some of my finest work was blending 3 or 4 wreckage piles into another flyable airplane. Incredable sense of accomplishment.

My past experiences gave me the confidance needed to make something fly out of alternate materials when we discovered them. When my current life's financial situation should have dictated that I get out of the hobby, my tenacity caused me to continue on with the newly discovered plastics.

My designing has rarely included knowing formulas or aerodynamics. It has much more to do with feel, TLAR, trial and error, and most importantly the balls to try.

there are currently 36 designs listed on the Spad Originals index. This does not mean that kraut and I have designed 36 airplanes. This means that Kraut and I have designed hundreds of airplanes, and only 36 of them were good enough to make plans for. That my friend represents more time and effort and balls over the last 5 years than most people put into this hobby in a lifetime. I won't even mention the time and effort that has been put into the web site.

Personally, I consider the Spa3d my finest work. It represents sticking my neck out and trying something that I had absolutely no idea if it would work. It represents hundreds of hours and airplanes, trying to get things to their absolute simplest form. It represents 5 years of being willing to try new ideas, and it took 30 years before that to get to the point of being willing, and having the knowledge to try.

So, when I see someone pull a beautiful scale master contender out of their trailer on a perfect weather day, I can admire it's beauty, it's workmanship, and the time and effort that was put into it. Even if it was built from a proven design, or even a kit. Even if the design was built and successfully flown by someone else before, I can still appreciate everything that has gone into it, because it's owner has made the choices required to get the utmost out of his hobby. That's what this is all about.

I can turn right around and pull my Spa3d out of my car, and my enjoyment of the hobby and sense of accomplishment and pride in workmanship is every bit as high, if not even a little more. Because I know how much time and effort and my entire being has been put into my $5 airplane that I put together after supper the night before.

And when I add to this formula the fact that a few other people in a few other places have also enjoyed what I've done, well I don't even know how to calculate that into the formula.

One of the dreams I've always had is to build a scalemaster quality 1/4 scale Spitfire. It may someday be a reality (no time soon though...saving this one up until I retire). I can also guarentee you that I already know what it will be built from. I really don't know what it will feel like to see it take off, since I already know I will have to follow a set of dimensions already known, and already proven. It may be an incredable sense of accomplishment, but then again it may pale to the feeling I get when I read a post that goes something like this:

Thanks Kraut and Tattoo, I never thought I could afford this hobby. I built a Debonair after I creamed my first trainer and it flies awesome. I never considered my self a designer, but after reading some ideas here I tried it, and my own design flies great. This is a great hobby. Sincerely, Fellow Spadder

< Message edited by Tattoo-RCU -- Jul 10 2003 5:27PM >

(in reply to Big Sasquatch)
       Post #: 51

Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/10/2003 7:50:34 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



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From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
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Great post Dean,

I think I'm beginning to "see the light".

SPAD is about prototyping ideas and extending RC to those on tight budgets. Two very worthy endeavours.

Now when are you gonna finish prototyping and build the real thing?

-----------

I guess I just get miffed when I see others (some present company excepted of couse) belittling the carftsmanship aspect of modelling.... but, since I think differently I guess I'm just a "self promoting", "drivel espoucing", troll. :

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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/10/2003 8:10:19 PM   
ChuckAuger



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From: Pampa, TX, USA
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I don't think Tattoo will ever quit prototyping....it's not a destination but a journey.


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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/10/2003 8:31:19 PM   
`3D


 

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From: here,
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It's the old been there done that here too....flying, building, scrach, kits , arf's..........

But I have more fun with my $10 SPAD then all of the others put together... My Magic comes close...but bulsa breaks...plastic just bounces....I still fly them all Heli too.

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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/10/2003 8:43:23 PM   
jmayle



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From: Hinesville, GA, USA
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Tattoo,

I have a nice collection of airplanes, from my third scale Pitts down to a wonderful Corostang and I have the skills to fly a pattern competition or just burn holes in the sky. For the past couple of years I have just enjoyed passing this great hobby on to others, and that is where my Spads has helped more than anything else that I have. I have been given plastic airplanes and I have given them away, where I do not think that I could give any of my balsa giants away.

I have been standing by the trash can watching someone pick through what is left of their plane and complaining that they will have to wait until next payday to buy their next ARF, and then next day stood proud, that I could keep them flying, as they continued to learn with their new Spad.

I always wanted to drag my rudder down the runway, while inverted on a high speed pass and as you can imagine, I have only done it with a SPAD. I am not saying that SPAD are "thow away" airplanes, but they do allow the brave to be just a little bolder.

I think that SPAD has opened up a new niche for modelers that invites all, but caters to many.

This is just one old mans thoughts on SPAD so please do not flame me.

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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/10/2003 8:51:25 PM   
dm2000t


 

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From: Lombard, IL, USA
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I must say that this is a very interesting debate...

I'm just getting back into flying after a long time...I've flown balsa, and am looking forward to flying a Spad. I will be flying both...but I must admit..the thought of spad has got me.

Hobbies mean so many different things to different people....but bottom line is....HAVING FUN.

We all go to the field for one thing......to fly and have fun.

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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/10/2003 11:08:22 PM   
thudriver


 

Posts: 72
Joined: 2/19/2003
From: apache junction, AZ,
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Now This is just my opinion. I really think we should quit spelling balsa as b$%^&sa. That is kind of inflamatory. I like the balsa guys at our club and I am not trying to convert them. Their airplanes look and fly beautifully. I wish I had the craftsmanship to build them but I could not do it even if trained with a cattle prod. The two groups should coexist.Personally, I get a kick out of the friendly insults. Besides I really don't care for one who has to flaunt their superiority! I think my club uses me and my SPA3D as an entertaining floor show. thudriver

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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/11/2003 2:26:48 AM   
secondchildhood


 

Posts: 166
Joined: 7/28/2002
From: Collinsville, IL, USA
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre


Same here, but I like it even better after a few hours work
I especially like it when I take a basic idea, then add enough modifications and changes to it that it is no longer a proven design. Then when it turns out to fly great, that REALLY makes my day. And if not- well a couple of bucks worth of coro and a few hours wasted. No biggie. The ability to think freely and try ones design out "on the cheap" is great with SPAD.


>

Agreed, just this morning a few fellas showed up at the field because a TV reporter wanted to do a short documentary. It turned out that it was EXTREMELY windy. No Fear-- I was the first one up with my "A10 Warthor" doing high alpha stuff, harrier landings, flying backwards in the wind, instant flips right off the deck, and tail touch - and Gos. But a miscalculation would mean possibly a broken prop, probably not much else. This is what makes it easy for me to learn as compared to being worried about busting months of work. To those who do this kind of flying with a stick built plane, my hat is off to you, I just prefer something a little more durable and easy to replace.

[ to me, is about creating something pleasing to the eye that is also quite functional and having the skill to wring it out. Pride in workmanship is not a sin I suspect, not even in the church of SPAD.>

Pride in workmanship is something that I absolutely admire. I've restored cars, built "real" boats, you name it, and I can appreciate the work that goes into a labor of love. I've seen many BEAUTIFUL scale balsa birds that I admire, but would be afraid to fly for fear of a radio glitch or whatever turning them into a "rekit" No matter how skilled a pilot you are, or how well you double check everything, "Feces Occures" I would really bum out to lose a labor of love to a bad transmitter or some other Murphy Law thing.

As I've said before, to each their own. Your enjoy your hobby, I'll enjoy mine.
[/QUOTE]

I'm all for that, I don't wish to sound like a SPAD Evangelist, (though I've been referred to as the "coro pimp" by my buds at the fly club , because I have passed my coro planes around and so many others have then built one for themselves. I love anything that flys, regardless of what it is constructed from.
To Dean, and Colin, I cannot thank you guys enough for promoting the "SPAD" idea. It is a great way to go. Especially for an "ol fart" who is trying real hard to fly like the youngsters do

Peace, and as Rodney King once said,
"Can't we all just get along"

Dwight Hayden

As long as you're having fun, and not hurting anyone, it's a good thing. (Did Martha Stewart really say that )

(in reply to Big Sasquatch)
       Post #: 58

Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/11/2003 8:22:35 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by thudriver
The two groups should coexist.[/QUOTE]

In fact they do (except prehaps on the net), and and are not "two groups" but one.

I think I was the first to coin the phrase 'fold-n-fly' for SPADs and didn't think it a derogatory term at the time, I thought it summed up the simplicity of design quite well at the time.... others branded me a non-believer. :

Later I saw SPADs being suggested to newbies and I questioned the logic of having a nebie design and scratch build their own FIRST plane (regardless of material)... again, I was branded a heathen. :
-----------------
I travel to many events and fly at several clubs. You have to have a good sense of humour to endure the good natured ribbing you can expect to receive (and are expected to give).... I just don't get why this friendly atmosphere disappears on the net????
------------------
Flaunting superiority?
Me? I know humility, I'm probably best known for my nose-over on takeoff maneuver at the worlds.

I guess you do meet some prima donnas at the field but they seldom feel welcome, they can't "lower themselves" to participate in the firndly banter.
As for me, all I ask is that you reserve judgement until we meet... not in prose.

< Message edited by Jim_McIntyre -- Jul 11 2003 3:32PM >


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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/11/2003 9:20:25 PM   
Tattoo



Posts: 2124
Joined: 2/10/2002
From: Wichita, KS,
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quote:

Later I saw SPADs being suggested to newbies and I questioned the logic of having a nebie design and scratch build their own FIRST plane


First of all, a newbie certianly doesn't have to design anything, it's already been done for him several times, all he has to do is choose which one he likes. And secondly, you know as well as I do that scratching a Spad in some cases is actualy easier that setting up and ARF. However, after 5 years of answering Spad questions, my opinion of starting out as a fresh newbie with a Spad has definately changed. I have come to realize that there is just too much involved in this hobby that some of us who have been doing it forever take for granted. I must qualify this and say that if a newcomer has a buddy that's a Spadder, and other Spadders in the club willing to help them, by all means, starting with a Spad is awesome. But, for a rank newbie coming to this hobby with no prior knowledge, and no Spadders in his club or area to help...I now reailize that this is a daunting task. Yes, the forums are here to help, and many have done it, but it does take some solid effort to succeed. A full explination of my view on this is here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tm.asp?m=911051

For those willing to do it, beginning with a kit is awesome. For those with the money, beginning with an ARF is awesome. Finding Spad after those experiences is awesome because they will have the basic knowledge of setting up an airplane and what they need. They also have an engine/radio/hardware/ground equipment. But more importantly, they have the appreciation of how little it costs to get back into the air, the satisfaction of creating their own machine, and the comparison of the different materials..

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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/11/2003 9:54:20 PM   
SeacretsOceanCity



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Not said better,by anyone else.

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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/11/2003 10:06:22 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tattoo
I have come to realize that there is just too much involved in this hobby that some of us who have been doing it forever take for granted. I must qualify this and say that if a newcomer has a buddy that's a Spadder, and other Spadders in the club willing to help them, by all means, starting with a Spad is awesome. But, for a rank newbie coming to this hobby with no prior knowledge, and no Spadders in his club or area to help...I now reailize that this is a daunting task.[/QUOTE]

What's that I hear? ... is it the sound of agreement.?

I think we're starting to find some common ground.

Geez, we might even see an end to the spelling of BALSA as if it were a curse word.
Maybe even Calvin and the attack donkey will show balsa some respect. Can you imagine the response to my posting the equivalent SPAD attacks?

< Message edited by Jim_McIntyre -- Jul 11 2003 5:11PM >


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Interesting Debate in the Clubhouse - 7/11/2003 10:10:52 PM