RE: How to handle a difficult pilot!

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 4:43 PM

DocYates

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Perhaps, it really shows that he is not some cowboy out looking for fight but someone who was concerned enough about doing the job he was tasked with and when he came hear seeking answers was railed by the typical tail-pullers. If indeed that was the case, it is hard to blame him for not having anything else to say. He has nothing to gain by it, and everything to lose, which could also include a flying site that is shared not only by his club but by other fliers who obviously do not have a problem observing the etiquette displayed by the majority of the people who use the site.
Whether you think you are right or not, it does not give you a license to act like an azz anytime you feel so obliged to do so. This is typically one of the things children learn in kindergarten, but fail to utilize it thru their adult years.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 5:08 PM

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I can't help but think that most people, when they ask for "ideas" are really just seeking support for their own views. Perhaps I'm a cynic.

I've forced myself to re-visit some of the earliest posts in this thread. Of these, the very first post is revealing; in fact, the very first sentence is most revealing. That sentence defines the whole argument...Our club has a unique feild that is owned by the county park system and is open to all pilots so long as they have a Valid AMA membership.

All the rest is just strong personalities grappling for control; or so it seems to me.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 6:44 PM

804

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Srewinkel

quote:

According the OP, threats were made. Here is a link to a Florida law office with a little info, for whatever it is worth. I also checked into the Florida statutes a bit, and there are statutes dealing with verbal threats under ''Assault'', and ''Stalking''

Wow talk about twisting and smearing what is happening here. There was no assault, and no stalking. But thanks for the info, next time i am in florida and someone calls me a name I'll be sure to call the cops. What was this about common sense earlier???

Srewinkel,

Florida law is pertinent, because the OP resides in...Florida!
And, I didn't say, never have, there was an assault, or stalking. Only that verbal threats are covered under those subtitles. Meaning, verbal threats can be classified as a form of assault or stalking. Get it?
If you had bothered to read the link, or Googled Florida Satutes, you would have been just a bit more informed than you were in your above post.
The twisting and turning were on your part.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 7:13 PM

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804,

We don't know what the threats were. We do know threats were made from a confrontation started by the OP. It sounds like a case for judge Judy.

The flying club is acting like an 800lb gorilla at this fllying field by trying to impose thier rules on anyone that shows up there. We're talking about a public park here. All that is required by the county is to have a valid AMA card. There is no mention of a need to display it except for the club rules. The club does not have authority over non-members. Why is this so hard to understand?

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 7:34 PM

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We have a similar county-provided r/c field. It too is public access. We have an AMA chartered club at the field, and as long as a non-club member has an AMA card, they of course can fly there too. As the so-called "safety officer", I am tasked with asking people to post AMA cards on the frequency board. I don't know everyone, so I don't know if they actually have AMA insurance. Although I have not encountered anyone who objected to the point of potential violence, I have been told on more than a couple of occassions to "KMA". I also want to note I have observed very little unsafe flying at our facility, and when it does happen, a group of flyers approach the unsafe flyer and counsel him. 2.4 has revolutionized frequency control, nevertheless, I still think its a good idea to post one's AMA card on the frequency board, as it is visible proof of AMA membership.

This past Sunday, the club president and I had an interesting conversation with the deputy sheriff assigned to park security. Because we would like to avoid the problems encountered by the gentleman who started this thread, we asked him if someone refused to post their AMA card, could we summon him and ask the person to post and be in accordance with our written safety rules. He obliged us by driving over and talking with his supervisor, and returned a short time later to tell us he had no authority to enforce any of the flying field safety rules, and the only thing he could respond to was a "disturbance", i.e., a fight, public drunkeness, someone injured, and so on. He suggested we take it up with the county. That meeting has yet to take place, but it will be interesting to see what the county's position is on our club rules that require the posting of an AMA card, and does that rule carry over to non-club members flying there? Perhaps more importantly, if they want AMA cards posted as part of their county policy, will they assist when necessary to make sure those who refuse to post either do so, or be asked to leave?

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 8:07 PM

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I'd still like to know, in a public park where all can fly with ama card that the county can grant a private club the authority to ask a non club member to show his ama card. I would think that the non club member only would have to show his card to a county employee if ask (such as a county park ranger)

I can see where sticking the club S.O. with this job could get somebody in a heap of dung by trying to enforce a COUNTY rule on somebody that isn't a club member.

If I was the club, I would sure want something official in writing from the county where they were granting me the S.O. specific authority to be doing this. I could foresee some liability problems arising from this also.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 8:10 PM

Quikturn

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Glowplugbuy,

I believe we are on the same page on this issue. I don't know if I agree with you on wheather or not the non-member should post his AMA card. I see it both ways.

I would be surprised if the county would require to post one's AMA card though. If they do that, why not require all who fish in public areas to post thier fishing license somewhere in view?

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 8:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quikturn

Glowplugbuy,

I believe we are on the same page on this issue. I don't know if I agree with you on wheather or not the non-member should post his AMA card. I see it both ways.

I would be surprised if the county would require to post one's AMA card though. If they do that, why not require all who fish in public areas to post thier fishing license somewhere in view?

Well said. That's why we are going to discuss this with the county. We want to get in writing their policy on this issue, and we will abide by it.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 9:02 PM

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Here is the signage you decide what it means.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 9:17 PM

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CCCDAD, go up a couple posts an read mine an let me know whos the authority at your place, an if you have it written from the county that you/club are the legal authority there. Remember, heresay in court don't mean squat anymore. Make the county give you something in writing if your it....

Edit..... by the way, how come the first sign doesn't say anything about the county on it, an the second one does? Anybody can make or have a sign made that says anything they want

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 9:22 PM

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Safety is monitored
Proof of membership is required
If proof of membership is to be enforcable, there is no other way to do it than to either require display of the card upon request, or give the Safety Officer Xray goggles.
If you file a complaint with the Sheriff, you will have done all that can be expected of you.
Get the club's blessings first.
There is no reason why some users of the field should be treated "more equal" than others.
Everyone should be held to the same set of standards.
Stories about, "We don't do it that way at our field" do not apply here.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 9:44 PM

Mike in DC

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CCCDAD, I know this will be hard for you, but I would recommend dropping the issue. I also fly on County owned land, and my experience is that government officials are very comfortable with ambiguity, which is where they have put you, probably intentionally. They have ceded tax-payer owned land to a particular club, and they have required non-club members to buy insurance from one specific organization, the AMA. They know that if anybody made a really big stink, the whole thing could fall through. So, their problem is how to keep the most people happy and protect the tax-payers from liability without pissing someone off so much that they have to spend a lot of time on it. They have written the rules vaguely on purpose so that most people will be happy, and they won't face any law suits. There is no way they are going to give you a badge to enforce rules with anything more than your charm, and I think you've wisely avoided calling in Law Enforcement. If you call LE, it might get back to the County that "we're always getting calls to resolve petty issues at the field," and someone at the County office may think the entire situation is more trouble than it's worth.

The reason this will be hard on you is that you are thinking absolutes, and worrying about "what ifs". You think if one person doesn't post their AMA card that others won't, and then people will start flying without AMA insurance and then the world will collapse. I highly doubt it. Most people will respond to your sincere efforts to keep everybody safe. Most people will follow your club's rules. Your "difficult flyer" sounds like he has a chip on his shoulder, and the truth is there may be absolutely nothing you can do about it.

My advice is to leave him alone. If someone says, "Why do I have to post my card if difficult flyer doesn't", just explain things the way you have here. If they refuse as well, so be it, but I doubt it will happen much. Don't think because you've reached the limits of your authority with one person that you should give up and do nothing. You're still doing a world of good educating and helping the people who cooperate, which should be most of them. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

One last thing. In this forum, you sound very reasonable, helpful and friendly. But if you find that you have a LOT of "difficult flyers" then you might want to do some self-searching, or talk to your friends, to make sure you're not inadvertently drifting into "Field Nazi" territory. We don't know your age, but there can be definite communication issues between members of different generations. Guys are not going to like it if they feel you are watching their every action for a possible rule infraction.

Good luck to you!

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 9:49 PM

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cccdad-
thank you for putting up the pics of the signs,
it really demonstrates the lack of clear directions you as SO have to work with.

One sign is extremely vague on requiring AMA, the other is talking about flying safely,
and we know FCMG flying on 2.4 steps side steps the freq safety concerns.

Neither sign mentions the Freq Board,
and that seems to be the crux of your dilemma

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/17/2009 11:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quikturn

804,

We don't know what the threats were. We do know threats were made from a confrontation started by the OP. It sounds like a case for judge Judy.

The flying club is acting like an 800lb gorilla at this fllying field by trying to impose thier rules on anyone that shows up there. We're talking about a public park here. All that is required by the county is to have a valid AMA card. There is no mention of a need to display it except for the club rules. The club does not have authority over non-members. Why is this so hard to understand?

cccdad knows what the threats were. Who cares what "we" think? Up to you to decide if he is lying.
For the rest, his pics of the signage is enough for me.
Why so hard to understand? I ask myself the same question.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 12:49 AM

littlecrankshaf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cccdad

Here is the signage you decide what it means.

Thanks for "posting"

the pics.

If I were to hazard a guess, the first sign was put up by the club (due to amateurish wording) and the second by the county but at any rate, none of them mandate posting a card…and the second sign only conveys the safety marshal the right to monitor safe operation…kind of ambiguous to say the least…maybe monitor and report…monitor and help…maybe just monitor.

Sounds like the “hall monitor” thingy again to me.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 3:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: cccdad

Here is the signage you decide what it means.

Thanks for ''posting'' the pics.

If I were to hazard a guess, the first sign was put up by the club (due to amateurish wording) and the second by the county but at any rate, none of them mandate posting a card…and the second sign only conveys the safety marshal the right to monitor safe operation…kind of ambiguous to say the least…maybe monitor and report…monitor and help…maybe just monitor.

Sounds like the “hall monitor” thingy again to me.

Yeah, that's about where I'm at after reading most of this tedious thread. Deputy Fife got told to put his officious roolze where the sun never shines. Tough noogies.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 7:01 AM

Quikturn

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I agree with littlecrankshaf. The first sign looks like it was written by an angry club member and only requires a valid AMA card. No mention of posting it anywhere. The second sign is more calmly and professionally written and includes the county on the botton of the sign. I am a bit surprised it names a specific club to monitor saftey. Now I think we can all agree about monitoring safety. But requiring one to post their AMA card on a 2.4 board has nothing to do with safety.

cccdad, I think you will be a happier man following the advise of Mike in DC.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 8:22 AM

psb667

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Take a vote at your next club meeting and after a decision has been made act on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt Kirsch

My club also operates a flying field on county property for public use. We have an agreement with the county that gives us the authority to establish and enforce rules, and the COUNTY stipulates that anyone who flies there must belong to AMA.

When there are problems, the parks department has our backs. All we need to do is call the parks department and they will take the necessary steps to remove the unruly individual from the park.

If you do not have such an agreement with your county, I suggest you develop it.

As I said before the rangers are there for a reason. If he comes back and dosnt comply let the rangers deal with it. if you vote and all agree then you probably arnt singling the guy out. unless all of you hate him in wich case he probably deserves it.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 3:39 PM

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quote:

Florida law is pertinent, because the OP resides in...Florida!

NEVEr said florida law wasn't pertinent, didn't even say you were wrong that the threats were against the law.

One could consider the OP as stalking, approached the guy twice in less than 2 months asking for something he knew he had. But I'm sure almost everyone would agree he isn't stalking.

You are twisting the situation here. It started about posting a card on the Freq board, you were unable to change everyones opinion to match your own, so you now chase the threat aspect of it. The OP should call the police if he feels he is any kind of danger. I think we all would agree on that.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 4:52 PM

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Oh heck yeah he should call the cops if threatened at a model field.
As should folks threatened at the mall parking lot, or at the stadium by opposing fans.

Great thing about a toy airplane field,
there are plenty of reasons to be rolling a vid camera at the field,
and it will be easy to find someone that 'happened to be filming'

and got the threats recorded

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 5:09 PM

BalsaBrkr

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I view it a little differently. There is an established field norm that most follow which simplifies the validation of AMA membership (by unpaid and un-empowered volunteers).

A pilot violates the norm and it creates agitation and stress. Very common. Try cutting line at the super market. It's legal and usually not in violation of any posted rule - yet it is also an anti-social violation of an established norm. If you do try cutting lines you will likely find that it often results in agitation and stress.

So, what do to about the card non-poster? I guess that depends on just how deep your conviction is that the person who cut in front of ya isn't gonna check out first.

That said, is the non-poster an "anti-hall monitor" bastion of liberty or an anti-social $%$&*? Here opinions will differ and additional insight into specific actions and history will contribute to perceptions.

< Message edited by BalsaBrkr -- 11/18/2009 5:30 PM >

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 7:00 PM

804

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quote:

Srewinkel

NEVEr said florida law wasn't pertinent, didn't even say you were wrong that the threats were against the law.
One could consider the OP as stalking, approached the guy twice in less than 2 months asking for something he knew he had. But I'm sure almost everyone would agree he isn't stalking.

You are twisting the situation here. It started about posting a card on the Freq board, you were unable to change everyones opinion to match your own, so you now chase the threat aspect of it. The OP should call the police if he feels he is any kind of danger. I think we all would agree on that.

Srewinkel,
I have been consistent from my first post: follow the rules, don't make threats.
No "twisting the situation here."
If you want to accuse me of that, then prove it.
And before I provided you with some information, you said something to the effect that you didn't realize one could be arrested for threats. Now you know, and apparently agree with me.
Even if I haven't changed your opinion, I was able to learn ya' somethin'.
Glad I could help.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 7:02 PM

The Toolman

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Guys, nowhere on either sign does it say you hafta show the card, just have one. That way if the park ranger comes around, you will have it to show to him, just like the guy above a few posts said about the fishin' license.

Like I said before,, I really can't believe the county would grant this club or person the legal authority to do the rangers job....

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 7:20 PM

combatpigg

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Toolman, would you really want to see the County put another daughter-in-law on the payroll with full benefits, shiny little truck, etc. to go around and check AMA cards? Besides field maintenance personel crews getting sent out to do the work that 1 illegal alien could do by himself, should we have specially assigned "Rangers" from the County patrolling around, or just leave it up to a model club to informally check AMA membership when they can.?
I have a similar arrangement with the City Airport and I'm not going to go blasting in there like Barney Fife when I see someone new flying, but I have helped newcomers get started flying control line and for the 2 that stuck with it [got hooked], they got AMA insurance and have signed in with the Airport manager.

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RE: How to handle a difficult pilot! - 11/18/2009 7:36 PM

The Toolman

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I figure the club members can take care of their own, and the others can get ckd whenever the ranger comes around.

Either that, or the club get something in writing from the county authorizing them to act as their agent to ck cards.

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