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kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 4:43 PM   
boblt


 

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Status: offline 		hello guys i have a 60 size super kaos that i have been flying since 1990 and i was told the wiggle came from the design to be almost out of control when ballanced perfectly that was what made it such a good early pattern ship this info . came from a a master builder and monocote expert and is also a judge at top gun take that for what its worth

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 5:52 PM   
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken



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Status: offline 		What??

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 6:58 PM   
Jeff Worsham


 

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Status: offline 		Does your Kaos have a canopy? I know the Kwik Fli would wiggle with a canopy, and much reduced without.

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 7:10 PM   
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken



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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 7:14 PM   
martenson


 

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Status: online 		My KwikFli wiggles and it has it's canopy.
I had a P47 and flying it fast was not fun, that one WIGGLE alot

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 8:08 PM   
NM2K


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: boblt

hello guys i have a 60 size super kaos that i have been flying since 1990 and i was told the wiggle came from the design to be almost out of control when ballanced perfectly that was what made it such a good early pattern ship this info . came from a a master builder and monocote expert and is also a judge at top gun take that for what its worth




Being a scale judge has absolutely nothing to do with knowing what he is doing regarding pattern trimming. Kind of like owning a hobbyshop has absolutely nothing to do with knowing what you are doing regarding the modeling hobby/flying/etc.

I've never witnessed the alleged Kaos wiggle and I have built and flown my share of Kaos models in many different sizes. Me thinks someone is having problems with their rudder thumb and doesn't want to admit it.


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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 8:33 PM   
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Status: offline 		Whereas my Super Kaos DOES 'wriggle'. Something to do with airflow breakaway from the fin, and does affect lots of aircraft, model and full size. There are cures, most are simple, thickening the trailing edge of the rudder will do it, a simple litho angle attached both sides of the trailing edge then trimmed to suit is a common one. That being said, my wriggle is only apparent in windy (turbulent) conditions, and is not visible in calm weather.
Evan, WB #12.

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 8:54 PM   
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Status: offline 		Add a dorsal fin. Seal your hinge gaps (all of them). Fix your sloppy rudder linkage. Use a smaller node wheel. It is destabilizing out in front of the CG/CP.

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 8:57 PM   
aerowoof


 

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Status: offline 		the original kaos[1965] added a sub fin to eliminate this problem.

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 9:33 PM   
boblt


 

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Status: offline 		hello Ed being a judge at top gun was just thrown in as a comment john ||||||||| was one of the most respected flyers and model shop oweners in the north east desighed and distributed his own models and was very much into pattern flying when i first built my super kaos and flew it it slowely wiggled back and forth i thought i built it wrong i was told the reason it flew so well and had a slight wiggle was it was on the verge of instability at high speed and that was what made it such a great plane ive had it for 19 yre and it still flies well and fast and it wiggles

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/7/2009 11:34 PM   
JAS



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Status: offline 		Mine wiggles too with a DBish canopy. Has a tight pull-pull set-up on it.

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< Message edited by JAS -- 11/9/2009 5:59 AM >

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 12:20 AM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		I think the "Kaos Wiggle" and the "Kwik Fli Dance" are related...


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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 12:30 AM   
Jeff Boyd 2



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Status: online 		Yeah . . funny you should say that. When I was a kid I flew a friends Kwik Fli Mk3 and noticed it wiggled. I later built one and didn't fit a canopy (just couldn't be bothered) and it seemed OK . . A lot of years ago, though.

Hmmm . . wonder if the canopy is deflecting airflow or causing turbulance over the fin ?? Maybe fit a T-Canaliser

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 12:37 AM   
boblt


 

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Status: offline 		hello yes it has a canopy

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 12:39 AM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		That was the theory I remember hearing most often, back in the mid 70's...a big bubble type canopy causing disturbed airflow around the fin/rudder.

There were a couple guys who built a lot of Kaos's (probably 7 or 8 between 'em ) and they decided that the canopy of choice was the Wing Manuf. streamlined style or the jet fighter style...not the original big bubble type.

Another friend built a Kwik Fli III without a canopy at first, then added the stock canopy to test the theory...he said he thought the big bubble was "probably" what caused the "dance".

Another theory though was the thick wing tips (and possably the barn door ailerons ) of the constant chord wing causing the "dance" vs. the thinner tips of the tapered wing Kwik Fli...but I don't know about that? (I mean the Kaos has a tapered wing, aye!? )


I just started flying a Tower Kaos .40 with a Webra .50 but have yet to notice any wiggle...only have half a dozen flights on it...will have to look out for it next time


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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 12:42 AM   
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Status: offline 		I have found that the wiggle in the Kaos and the Kwik Fli was related to the design of the rudder pushrod and the poor servos we used tp use. Most people made their pushrods with a long 2-56 rod exiting the fuselage and then having a bend in it before it attaches to the rudder. If you re-engineer the pushrod using a 5/32" or 3/16" carbon tube with short straight metal rods at each end (preferably 4-40 at the rear) and NO bends, and upgrade to a high quality servo with a minimum of 60-100 oz of torque you will be amazed at the improvement in the way these airplanes fly and respond to rudder inputs.
Scott

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 12:48 AM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		That's interesting Scott...
I wonder if the relatively low torque servos used back then, (along with less than desireable pushrod geometry ) could have a problem dampening the turbulence caused by the canopy?

My Kaos linkages are good 'n tight...and I'm using std. "sport" digi's (HS-5475's )


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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 1:08 AM   
smacfe


 

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Status: offline 		This Kaos I built from plans using the rudder pushrod on the plans and it had the wiggle and felt like the rudder was "soft" in k.e. and in the point rolls. Put in a straight carbon rod and what a difference! So much more rudder now in k.e. I had to add expo. Wiggle in the figure m and at the bottom of split s disappeared. I built a Kwik Fl from the Graupner kit and found the same solution to work.

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 1:09 AM   
flywilly


 

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Status: online 		I had a Super Kaos 60 with an OS 60FSR with the perry pump and carburetor. It had the wiggle at full throttle which I cured by adding a triangular piece (fin) in front of the vertical fin, I don't remember how much area, but it worked. I suspect part of the problem was the increased available horsepower (and resulting flight speed), but I only had my Super Kaos for 27 flights, then the RX took a vacation and the plane rolled through some trees at full speed.. . I moved on to the Dirty Birdy shortly afterwards.
-Will

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 2:45 AM   
RonMcCormick



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Status: offline 		smacfe, I think you are correct, back in the 70's my first low winger was a Kaos, and I had at least four total. I never had the wiggle and it was not common in my area altho I did hear of people having that issue. It was not uncommon back in that period to put a Z type bend where the wire exits the fuse. I never did that, I tried to make the rod straight and the wire as short as possible. Every time I noticed that pushrod condition on some ones plane I would show them how the control surface could move and was not stiff. I never studied the problem of wiggling because I did not have it on any plane. It can be that the Kaos is more sensitive than other designs and when a loose push rod is used it wiggles. I don't believe the servos in general would cause the wiggle they weren't that bad (were they?) and we have people reporting having the problem recently , some of them very good builder fliers. I like your explanation, makes sense to me. It will be interesting to see the wiggle induced and corrected by someone.


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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 7:08 AM   
Wrench66


 

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Status: offline 		It MUST be a Kaos thing...LOL...my scratch built foam 400 size (32in wing, 29in length 12oz auw) wiggles when I really start getting with it at max speed.
A high speed dive in a slight breeze is really something I tell ya!
BTW..it does have a HS65MG moving it's rudder.


Ray

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 8:42 AM   
NM2K


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: boblt

hello Ed being a judge at top gun was just thrown in as a comment john ||||||||| was one of the most respected flyers and model shop oweners in the north east desighed and distributed his own models and was very much into pattern flying when i first built my super kaos and flew it it slowely wiggled back and forth i thought i built it wrong i was told the reason it flew so well and had a slight wiggle was it was on the verge of instability at high speed and that was what made it such a great plane ive had it for 19 yre and it still flies well and fast and it wiggles



I was just joshing you, boblt. What happened to my smiley?


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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 1:49 PM   
Deadstik



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Status: offline 		I haven't seen this topic brought up in a LONG time...The Kwik Fli Dance was seen by just about everyone who has ever flown one while the Kaos Wiggle is not. After the last big Discussion/arguement about the reason for it and what caused it the best I can recall the answer was not the canopy but the WING FILLETS !!! I'm sure many of you have built a Kaos and when it got to shaping those big railroad ties supplied to make wing fillets from just went... it looks just as good without them...while others (who are into pain) patiently shaped them into the fillets. That is my best recollection of these aerodynamic rarities. BTW... the wing fillet answer included not just whether they were there or not but also the size...as in bigger was better....

Dan
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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 2:04 PM   
Free Bird


 

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Status: offline 		smacfe, that's one sharp looking Kaos! Is that a painted finish or iron-on film?

FB

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RE: kaos wiggle - 11/8/2009 2:19 PM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		Dan...that's verrrryyy interestinggg (insert Arte Johnson's Laugh In imitation here )

I recall reading of the early P-38's having a buffetting problem in high speed dives...(disturbed airflow over the tail surfaces )
They "fixed" it by adding wing root fairings at the L.E.


FB...I was thinking the same thing...nice looking airplane Scott.


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