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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> RC Jets >> Turbine Clinic >> Jet Central Turbines - Artes Jet >> Couldn't get bee to start
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Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 10:46 PM   
Socomon



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From: Riva, MD, USA
Status: online 		I took the Nano out to the club today to try to start the Super Bee for the first time. I had a couple of the other turbine guys there to help (though they are JetCat guys). Anyhow - when we tried to get the Bee to start, the start cycle initiated, we heard the click, click,click. The starter spooled up and then down and then up and then down, but the engine did not start. We tried increasing the gas % and brought it up as high as 40%. We made sure the coil on the glow plug was pulled way down. We increased the glow plug value up to 40 (actually, we went to 45 one time and blew the plug and had to replace it).

We tried the gas valve test from the GSU menu and we could hear the gas running and could smell it at the back of the engine. It seems like the propane was not igniting during the start cycle for some reason.

Anyhow - any thoughts on the problem are welcome.

The manual says: Usually the lack of ignition is caused by the glow plug that doesn’t have enough filaments exposed or too much gas.

Maybe it was getting too much gas - though I think we started at 10%?

Steve

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:34 PM   
smitty1001



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Status: offline 		Steve,

Keep going up on the propane... of the 5 JC engines I have owned they all used different settings. One of my superbees started on 10% gas and the other wouldn't even think about lighting on anything below 80%... go up slowly and you're fine. Did you check the plug outside of the can?

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:35 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		Yes, my buddy pulled it and put it in a glow driver and tested it.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:36 PM   
smitty1001



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Status: offline 		The other thing is: what propane are you using? Powermax or green bottle straight propane?

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:37 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		I am using the green coleman bottle with a regulated valve from Dreamworks.

Is it necessary to hold the coleman bottle upside down? My buddy is uding the same set-up on his Jetcat and does not need to turn it upside down.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:37 PM   
smitty1001



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Status: offline 		gas definately too low if you saw the plug glow and started at 10%

you can put your glow percentage back down so you don't blow anymore plugs and just go up by 10% each start

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:39 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		OK - we will have to go to 50 and above next time then. Thanks.

BTW - how many times should I let the starter cycle up/down before aborting the start?

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:41 PM   
smitty1001



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Status: offline 		When I was running straight propane (green bottle) I was at 100% Gas using the dreamworks valve going through the setup as per manual - I never had to hold it upside down but not much propane gets through that filter and restrictor especially through a regulated valve. If you want to see if it will light on propane (and then cancel the start) I will walk you through it by phone

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:43 PM   
smitty1001



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Status: offline 		doesn't really matter how many times you let it cycle but if it doesn't light right away something is not set optimally - there is no need for it to keep trying - something needs to be changed if that is happening

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:43 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		OK - thanks again.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:45 PM   
smitty1001



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Status: offline 		you bet - give me a shout if you want to give it a try 817-360-5697 - I'm just watching the cowboys get spanked by green bay

The internals with regard to the propane sticks are very different on Jetcat than Jet Central lending to different starting personalities. The Jet Central engines only have a single propane stick which can make it a little different in response to propane amounts

*something else I just thought of re-reading your posts..... you really want to test the glow plug under the ECU power instead of a seperate glow driver so you can see how it is glowing with the startup supplied voltage. The glowdriver test tells you the plug is good but nothing about how it is glowing during the startup procedure. So, take the glow plug out, hold the ground wire/washer on it and initiate a start (no propane connected) and see what the plug is doing. This is the most real-world way to test the glow strength - there is a "glow test" in the menu but it is not cycling the starter motor during that test and so it is not neccessarily what the propane in encountering inside the can.

All that paragraph ^ is sorta moot though because I'd bet my dog that the propane is not enough.

V Roger that, don't wanna go at it without a fire can!

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/15/2009 11:59 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		Thanks for the offer. I would give it another go, but my CO2 bottle isn't charged. We had my buddies bottle at the field today. I gotta get mine charged.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 12:57 AM   
sailing1


 

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Status: offline 		Well I could sure be wrong about this but I think your problem is using the regulated valve. My two two Jet central turbines both require the use of an un-regulated propane source. There is a gas line restrictor between the gas solenoid valve and the trubine which regulates the amount of propane that gets to the turbine. If you are regulating the propane at the source, ie, your proppane container you probably are not getting enought pressure to the restrictor and thus not enough propane to the turbine.

There have been several threads on this forum regarding the correct valves to use on the for colman fuel to the Jet Central turbines. I also had problems similar to what you are experienceing berfore Eric had me replace my restrictor valve and change to a very simple non regulated propane valve on the green colman canister.

You might search the support forum for propane valves. That is where I got the directions for my propane canister valve. I think it was even Eric's design.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:07 AM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		Interesting. This is the one I am using:

http://dreamworksrc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_39&products_id=716

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:13 AM   
Pete737



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Status: online 		Im new to turbines. I had trouble getting my falcon to light off now and then. All my starting troubles dissapeared when I discovered this technique, Just wait about 3 second after the starter disengages then introduce the gas. It works EVERY time for me..

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:23 AM   
noahb



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Status: offline 		I used a regular propane head on mine. I mounted a brass tube on it and secured a tube to that. It's not regulated. If that valve you have is regulated I am not sure it will work, however you might try contacting Eric to see what he says. The tiny restricter in the gas line restricts the flow, so any other restriction will require an extremely high gas setting. However, I do not know how the dreamworks valve works. The other valve is very easy to make and I have had flawless performance with coleman propane.



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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:24 AM   
sailing1


 

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Status: offline 		Found the thread. Check out this link

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9057251/anchors_9059644/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#9059644

The valve I use is like the one Bill Hatcher shows in post 21 and my procedure is Exactly as Eric mentions in post 22. By he way it cost me about $7.00 to make the valve.

And the procedure that Pete 737 mentioned above works perfect as well. It is just charging the gas line after the first glow test and before the next comand from the ECU to start.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:26 AM   
smitty1001



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Status: offline 		Steve, that valve works fine with Jet Central motors as does an unregulated one. Open yours all the way for a start. Don't get distracted  that bee will start next time you try with enough propane!

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 3:24 AM   
phjoker



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Socomon

Interesting. This is the one I am using:

http://dreamworksrc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_39&products_id=716


I am using the same one and have no problems at all. Plug the propane bottle into the check valve if your not using the on-board tank(make sure the check valve is the right direction, don't ask how I know that I did it once NEVER AGAIN!!!!) and turn the valve on all the way. The propane valve is restricted and you have a restricter in your line. So it's just a matter of getting the right % of Gas

I had trouble at first with my Falcon but I had the propane valve closed to much and my gas setting was to low. Once I got it the Gas setting right with the Glow % She lights every time.
I also turn on the propane valve as soon as I plug it into the check Valve. With the Gas Solenoid it will not let the Gas out to the turbine until the ECU tells it to.I then wait until it reaches Fuel Ramp then I turn off the valve and Unplug.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:02 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		Thanks. I confirmed the valve is running the right direction and we did have the valve on the propane bottle fully open - so it is sounding like gas % based on everyone's responses.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:26 PM   
ww2birds



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Status: offline 		You have good advice here ... I am sure you'll get it going next time, and I'm sure you'll be happy with the motor once you find the right setting.

Just be careful even THINKING about turning the bottle over ... if liquid propane makes it into the motor you will have big big trouble and probably overheat the motor to the point where it will have to be sent back for service.

This can even happen in a relatively innocent accidental situation where you have the Coleman bottle offboard sitting on the ground next to the plane, and it is knocked over on its side during a start. Fortunately I have not had this happen but I have had one of the mfrs tell me it is a disaster when it has happened to their customers. Scared the heck out of me and got me thinking about making a wider base to set the propane can into.

Dave


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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 1:33 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		Thanks Dave. It was this section from the Super Bee instruction manual that had me confused about whether to turn the propane bottle over:

Gas supplied must be liquid gas; dip-tube liquid feed types are suitable, if your system
doesn’t have one, just hold the gas bottle upside down. Propane and Propane/Butane
mixtures work well in temperate climates

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 3:16 PM   
carcraze


 

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Status: offline 		Hey all

I am new to turbines and your best bet is to give Eric a call he has been great with me. I have an eagle and use standard propane and made a hook up which is not regulated. The supplied propane for my eagle must be in liquid form so from a standard propane bottle the bottle must be held upside down to get liquid as it does not have a dip tube. This was one of my first questions to him as the manual indicated liquid propane.

My starts well at 5% gas mind you I am running an igniter and not a glow plug.

Again mine is an Eagle not sure if it is the same procedure as yours.

Mat

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 3:36 PM   
Socomon



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Status: online 		Thanks. It sounds like perhaps the manual was saying what I thought it might be saying.

We were not holding the propane bottle upside down but maybe should have been.

I have been in e-mail contact with Eric and will follow-up with him on the phone shortly as well. He said he would call me when I was able to be at the jet and ready to fire it up. Unfortunately my wife left today on a work trip and I'm alone with the little ones, so no playtime for me for a few days until she returns.

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RE: Couldn't get bee to start - 11/16/2009 3:37 PM   
Planecrazy232



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Status: offline 		One thing that is a little confusing for you guys is the instructions for using liquid propane is for FILLING the inboard propane tank that is supplied with the turbine. I fill my inboard tank with liquid, disconnect the filler and there is enough gas for at least 2 starts. If you do not use the supplied inboard tank, then you must use only gas from the outboard tank. Goes like this: Outboard tank>gas valve (ecu controlled)>filter>restrictor>engine.

I just don't see the justification of using an outboard tank when the inboard tank works just fine.

Anthony Greco, Jr.
Team Horizon

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