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Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/20/2009 9:43 PM   
SooperFlye



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From: CHICAGO, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Folks ...
This is a tiny departure from the mishap that unfortunately occured with Guitarman52: (Warning Graphic Picture!!).  10/1/2009 5:25 PM

As a newbie, when I first got involved with this wonderful hobby back in 2007, the main concern I had then as well as now, is safety.   This is not from experience because I have none in regards to model airplanes.   But it made all the sense in the world to think safety first.   So as I began to learn about building airplanes, understanding the tools needed for such a hobby and ultimately learning the do's and don't's of airflight, I naturally thought of safety.   Always!!

In my RC flight studies, I downloaded tons of images and videos so that I can learn as much as I can about starting and flying an airplane.  Most importantly, where one should stand when starting the engine.   The first instruction I read when starting one's model airplane engine, is that you NEVER stand in front of it while starting.   NEVER.   Well, of course, every single image and video I've downloaded demonstrates a person standing, and in most cases, precariously in front and around the propeller.   And these are guys who are supposed to be experience AMA flyers.  

I found a video of a RC pilot trying to start this huge & gorgeous three engine Savoia Marchetti S.79, and the guy was on his knees in front of this monster.   He started the 2 wing engines - which made me nervous enough - then he had a problem with the 3rd engine to the fuselage, and all this while the two other engines were roaring away.   There were no mishaps but I thought how careless this appears to be because he was moving his head and body around the fuselage (engine) propeller without any notion that the 2 wing propellers were roaring away, just inches from his body and head.   As he tries to solve the 3rd engine, he would move his head to one side looking for the problem then to the other side, with the 2 wing propellers spinning like crazy.   Jeeze!!

So as I look at all these accidents waiting to happen, I began to wonder if maybe not enough is being done by the AMA to make it loud and clear that the best way and maybe the ONLY way to start an airplane engine is to either install an electronic ignition ... OR STAND BEHIND THE PROPELLER WHEN STARTING.   Also, maybe people at RCUniverse can show a good example on how to properly and safely start a model airplane engine.   I'm totally perplexed by the demands of experience RC pilots that everyone should join an AMA club to learn the proper method of starting and flying a model airplane.   Yet the videos show people, at these AMA sanctioned clubs, as being so careless that it scares me to death to join a club.  

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the AMA or people who are a member of AMA (I plan to join the AMA come hell or high water) but maybe AMA needs to apply one more requirement to join.   It's a little draconian but before joining, the RC pilot must demonstrate the new AMA's nationally and internationally accepted method and technique of starting and stopping a model airplane engine.   That's it, no other requirement needed!

If that sounds a little over board, take a real hard look at Guitarman52's fingers.

SooperFlye


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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/20/2009 10:22 PM   
MinnFlyer



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Status: offline 		With all due respect, you are taking "Safety" beyond the limits of reason.

Why don't they put steering wheels on cars in the back seat? That would be safer, right?

Starting an engine from behind the plane is ridiculous. How would you do that with an electric starter?

Even by hand it would be difficult enough to do as to render the practice dangerous.

If you are standing behind the plane, the fuselage and wings are in the way. You are not just turing the prop, you are flipping that prop through a compression cycle. You need LEVERAGE to do that, and you have none standing behind the plane.

So here's a safety scenario for you...

You stand behind the plane. You try to flip the prop throught the compression cycle, but you can't quite do it because of the cumbersome position you are in. So the engine kicks back, throwing your chicken stick across the pit area and it puts someone's eye out.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/20/2009 10:44 PM   
SooperFlye



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Status: offline 		MinnFlyer ...
is standing behind the engine with the 'fuse' between your legs an issue for small planes as well?   Let's say a model that's less than 60 inches.   As for the hazards of standing behind the engine, have I been reading mixed messages on the proper starting method?   The studying continues.

SooperFlye

PS:
Long time ago, the old hook & ladder fire trucks had steering wheels in the back, remember?   The fire department thought it was good Idea.


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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/20/2009 10:58 PM   
SooperFlye



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Status: offline 		MinnFlyer ...
would it be possible to get a definitive do's and don'ts on the proper way to start a model airplane?   Minus the electric starter and electronic ignition.

SooperFlye


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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/20/2009 11:51 PM   
speedy72vega


 

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Status: offline 		I would have to agree with MinnFlyer, it would be almost if not impossible to start the engine from the rear of the plane. When using a Chicken Stick (or gloved hand as I see most often), the most proper way would be to have the plane in a tail restraint or starting stand and start from the front. Using an electric starter, the most comfortable for me is to stand to the side of the plane while either holding the fuse, or using tail restraints.
However, ALL carb ajustments I make from behind the prop. Just my opinions.............nothing more.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 12:12 AM   
on_your_six


 

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Status: offline 		Don't stand in front of the prop means within the propeller arc...on either side of the plane. Do not stand in a position where a prop blade can be broken and thrown into you with bad results. It does not mean you (the starter only) cannot stand in front of a properly secured airplane during starting. The plane should be either held by a helper or with a mechanical device. I always use a goal post looking device staked into the ground and I have someone stand behind it. as the engine roars to life, I keep the electric starter aimed at the spinner in case it comes forward. I have seen some engines backfire and toss the spinner, but never with life threatening force. First life for an engine is often reason to stand back if you are not involved.

You have to practice safe starting procedures and that mean every time no exceptions. Hey Newbie... ask and you shall be shown how to do it properly. If I see someone starting without help, I try to lend my assistance. Most of the time it is welcome and reciprocated.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SooperFlye

In my RC flight studies, I downloaded tons of images and videos so that I can learn as much as I can about starting and flying an airplane.  Most importantly, where one should stand when starting the engine.   The first instruction I read when starting one's model airplane engine, is that you NEVER stand in front of it while starting.   NEVER.   Well, of course, every single image and video I've downloaded demonstrates a person standing, and in most cases, precariously in front and around the propeller.   And these are guys who are supposed to be experience AMA flyers.  


SooperFlye



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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 1:55 AM   
DavidAgar



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Status: offline 		The reason the Fire Department put a steering wheel on the rear of the truck was not so much to drive it, but to allow them to get the ladder down small and narrow streets by making the trailer swing around a lot wider than a trailer with out the steering. As for starting an engine, I tip my hat to Minn Flyer. You never get behind the engine and try and start it. You might be able to pull it off once or twice, but sooner or later it will bite you. Good Luck, Dave


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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 3:07 PM   
SooperFlye



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Status: offline 		Hey Guys ...
thanx for the enlightenment and the education.   I just needed a true understanding of the process of safely starting an engine.

SooperFlye

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 4:47 PM   
Deadeye



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Status: offline 		I'm right handed, and here's how I start my planes:
1) Plane sits on the table, radio on (at idle!), plane on.
2) Starter box is a foot and a half in front of the prop.
3) Attach glow heat, left hand is firmly on the front half of the fuselage
4) With right hand, grip starter and put it on spinner
5) Fire that sucker up

My face is in the direct line of the prop arc during this whole time. I have been flying for 8 years, and have started my planes THOUSANDS of times. The only time I've ever been nicked by a prop, is from an electric plane.

The way I do it is about as safe as I can figure to get. Short of staying home, wrapping myself in bubble wrap and curling into a ball in the corner, that is.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 5:09 PM   
MetallicaJunkie



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Status: offline 		That's funny... i think this is the same guy that was policing the skies in the flight sim RF 4.5.. he was getting upset because we were flying all over the place .... what a nut

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 5:54 PM   
freakingfast


 

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Status: offline 		The main thing to remember is to get everyone behind the prop after its running and BEFORE you run it up to speed. The worst engines to be in front of are the glow four strokes. Get them lean at speed and they can back fire, stopping the crank so fast that even some jam-nutted props will shoot off anywhere from strait ahead or to the side. Scary little sucka's.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 6:32 PM   
on_your_six


 

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Status: offline 		Sir, with due respect, I think you can place your body and arm in a manner to reduce the exposure of your face to the prop arc and minimize the risk of something flying off the prop into your head or eyes. I know that I can...

I am not looking for a fight....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deadeye
My face is in the direct line of the prop arc during this whole time. I have been flying for 8 years, and have started my planes THOUSANDS of times.



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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 9:11 PM   
grinder-RCU



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Status: offline 		Starting the engine from behind the prop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU0RrCmR7Sc&feature=related

Grinder.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/21/2009 10:25 PM   
MinnFlyer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: freakingfast

The main thing to remember is to get everyone behind the prop after its running and BEFORE you run it up to speed.

SooperFlye, The above statement is correct.

The proper proceedure is to stand in front of the plane - BUT... make sure the engine is at idle AND that the plane is properly restrained.

Once the engine is running (at idle) Anyone and everyone shoud get behind the prop arc before running the engine up past idle

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/22/2009 12:55 PM   
KW_Counter


 

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Status: offline 		It is impossible to start the plane from behind so we have to think about what we are doing and are going to be doing when we bigin this very dangerous procedure.
1) Make sure you are not wearing any loose clothing.
Jackets are zipped up.
Nothing around your neck (transmitter straps, hood ties, etc.) and hanging down.
Long sleeves are buttoned.
2) Make sure no one is standing in the plane of or in front of the prop (except you).
3) MAKE SURE THE PLANE IS RESTRAINED BY SOMETHING OR SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOU.
4) Be very careful when removing the ignitor - reach from behind if possible.
5) Once the engine is running step behind the plane (as already stated).

I am sure others will add to this list.
Everything we do can't be perfectly safe; but we must do them in the safest manner possible.

Good Luck,
KW_Counter

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/22/2009 5:03 PM   
50+AirYears


 

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Status: offline 		First of all, a propellor is a damgerous item whether it's on a glow, diesel, gas, electric, CO2, compressed air,spring wound, or rubber power source. It can even be dangerous while in a person's hand.

As far as not standing in front of the plane while starting, it is possible and practical - - with some form of on-board starter system such as sold by Hobby Lobby. I have seen one large scale flyer start one of his planes a time or two from behind, but it was so awkward, it was probably safer to start an unrestrained plane from the front. He gave the method up after the one day.

CL and FF flyers always start from the front. But they are usually very careful to get behind the plane, out of the prop arc, as soon as practical And these ae planes that are started at full throttle. Except for some specialy planes, there is no provision for throttle.

At our club, many fliers have started using the restraint benches we built. Others use some form of restraint staked into the ground. Me, for most of my planes, the restraint is a pair of14" screwdrivers pushed into the ground to restrain the tail on taildraggers, or wing LE on tricycle gear planes. People give me comments on my arm movements during and after startin. They are very exaggerated to keep body parts away from the prop for the entire starting and run-up cycle.

Even when I was in the USAF, it was a matter of principle that you never stood in front of or along the plane of rotation of a propellor, or the turbine section of a jet any longer than needed to do your job.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/22/2009 10:32 PM   
goliathman



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Status: offline 		its not impossible . one of the sponsors here offers a pto back plate that would allow rear starting like the RCV.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/22/2009 10:39 PM   
goliathman



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Status: offline 		It doesnt take hell or high water to join the AMA just $58.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/23/2009 1:00 AM   
MinnFlyer



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Status: offline 		No, not impossible, but as I said, it takes safety beyond the limits of reason.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/24/2009 4:35 AM   
dgrant



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer

No, not impossible, but as I said, it takes safety beyond the limits of reason.


I agree.. there is limits.. if someone is that into safety... how about this.. a scenario you might say..... Every time you turn off the main street to get to your flying field.. you up your risk of a plane coming down on your car... Then..when you park your car to unload, or even spectate.. you upped your odds of being involved in something.. and highest odds are .. your a pilot flying on the flightline.. your a sitting duck!!
The mishaps will happen..and its unfortunate..and about all we can do is "be aware of our surroundings and what we are doing AT ALL TIMES!!" because if you plan to be 100% safe.. stay home... and even then a 747 just might fall on you.

So if you take the above concept to heart.. why bother with RC

I personally NEVER let anyone stand anywhere but behind and away from my plane.. I tell people EVERY time.. do not stand in the ARC of the prop.. I don't know why some dont' get it and they just stand there almost waiting for something to kick-up.. DUH<<< it will!!!!.. the prop DOES pick up debris, as it's blades pass the ground at 1000MPH,, but some just don't get it.. it is OUR responsibility to put people where we want them when its our turn to fly.. YOU/ME/WE are the pilot.. so create what you think is a safer environment..whether its in the pitts, the hangar, or the runway.
After that... its ridiculous to stand "behind" your plane.. I mean.. we build the dang things.. if we've went to some of the above steps.. we know how to start them.... You/me/we just can't let a guard down when operating our aircraft at any point.. the results can be catastrophic. The consequences are severe unfortunately.. and I did read about guitarman a few months back..and being a player/musician.. It is always a wake up call... no doubt.. and I am fortunate..and do hope it never happens to me.. as I'm sure guitarman never meant anything to happen..and I have utmost respect for him sharing.. that in itself is a service to the RC community.


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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/24/2009 12:07 PM   
MinnFlyer



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Status: offline 		Here is a horrible true-story that happened at my dad's field.

A guy was starting his giant-scale gasser. He asked his wife to straddle the plane in order to restrain it.

He did everything right, had the engine at idle and started it. So far, so good. But at that point, he did not get up and go behind the plane as he should have and he ran the engine up.

Well, his wife was straddling the plane, but he legs were not up against the stab, so when he throttled up, the plane lurched forward about 8 inches and the prop shredded his hand.

I see this so many times. Someone starts an engine at idle, and then stands right in the danger zone while "testing" it at full bore!

Please! Start your engine, and then get yourself and EVERYONE else in the area BEHIND the prop arc!

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/24/2009 1:29 PM   
Guitarman52



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Status: offline 		The one thing that caused my accident, and it was my fault, was the restraint not being locked in place. I put the plane in the restraint, then someone come over and starting talking to me, and I forgot to lock it in place. I don't blame anyone but myself. The whole reason for my ugly picture was to remind everyone to take the time and make sure all of the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. It is not a dangerous hobby if we pay close attention to what we are doing.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/24/2009 3:50 PM   
Tommygun



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Status: offline 		Yet for years people have been hand propping full-scale aircraft from in front of the propeller with no problems, and now all of a sudden this is such a major epidemic with model airplanes having less than 1/20 the same horsepower.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/29/2009 12:48 AM   
goliathman



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer

No, not impossible, but as I said, it takes safety beyond the limits of reason.

Beyond the limits of reason is a little over stated,Example:This plane has a pull start.

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RE: Warning Graphic Picture!!: My Thoughts from a Newbie - 11/29/2009 4:10 AM   
MinnFlyer



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Status: offline 		That's fine if you want to put a car engine in your airplane.

How would that work with a cowl?

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