can773

My Feedback: (1)

Cool, now just don't limit them and lets see what they can do

2Sunny

25-12 vs 30-10


My data with a RASA 20.5 x 14 and a Schulze 32.55KA (62 amps continuous/ 80 amp burst)

2000 RPM 140 watts 3.4 amps vs 2000 RPM 150 watts 3.6 amps
4000 RPM 750 watts 19 amps vs 4000 RPM 770 watts 19 amps
5000 RPM 1600 watts 42 amps vs 5000 RPM 1570 watts 41 amps
5650 RPM 2450 watts 67 amps vs 5650 RPM 2620 watts 72 amps
5850 RPM 2740 watts 74 amps vs 5850 RPM 2970 watts 80 amps


Plettenberg data for 19 x 12 RASA:

6300 RPM 1786 watts 51 amp vs 6360 RPM 1821 watts 51 amps


Plettenberg data for 20 x 13 RASA:

6090 RPM 2018 watts 58 amps vs 6100 RPM 2064 watts 58 amps




F3AUnlimited YGE data with 21 x 14 RASA on 30-10:


2000 RPM 3.7 amps
4000 RPM 22.1 amps
5000 RPM 43.5 amps
6000 RPM 85.9 amps (RPM limited by esc)


F3AUnlimited data for Castle:
2000 RPM 3.6 amps
4000 RPM 23.7 amps
5000 RPM 48.3 amps
5750 RPM 89.7 amps (RPM limited by esc)





This has taken me 30 minutes so far and I'm gettin' in trouble with the wife so I'll have to begin the discussion elements later, but here's the raw data. Suffice to say that on my Delro this motor flies better than a C50 comp and equal to the 30-10. My main point that I will elaborate on in length tomorrow is that for all intents and purposes the 25-12 produces equal power to the 30-10 at 65g less weight and $10 less price. The absolute top end certainly will not be equal, but the useful power is the same.


P.S. I have changed the data regarding the top end reading on the 30-10 with the Schulze controller because we had two data points of 84 amps and 76 amps as the amps were jumping around considerably, but after careful consideration I realized that the controller was bumping against the 80 limit which when you use that number produces a voltage identical to the peak seen on the 25-12 and as the pack was the same one topped off for the test I am willing to assume that an average amp reading of 80 amps is more valid than the low reading we saw during the jumping around.




EDIT: I added two graphs. The first is a masters seq. plus a couple mins practice and the second is an Intermediate Seq. plus some practice. The first went over on the timer by 1:45 sec [X(]

Chris Moon

My Feedback: (8)

For non engineer types and non data crunchers:

The 25-12 Evo motor provides plenty of power for 99% of us. I flew the Masters sequence twice with Joe's E-Motion and the new RASA 20.5-14 prop and it had more than enough power for any of the vertical maneuvers. I am seriously considering putting one in my Addiction since I fly the 30-10 Evo motor on there now restricted at the top end with the throttle curve. I would fly Joe's plane any day in any wind condition with complete confidence that it had enough power. The question is, why run a smaller motor if it is only a few dollars cheaper than the bigger one which makes more power? The benefits are a weight savings of 2 oz and a slightly lower power consumption rate than it's bigger brother. It you don't need either of those, you might be happier with the 30-10 Evo.

I think the point Joe was trying to make with all of this is that one should not dismiss the smaller motors as you might find they have something to offer you. When I posted the data on the Axi 5325/24 some people thought that motor would not have sufficient power for F3A. Ask anyone who saw and flew my 12 1/2lb test plane at the D2 Championships if that motor had enough. Just don't dismiss these slightly smaller motors as they might just have some benefits for your situation. Are they the answer for everyone, no.

2Sunny

There is also a sidebar that I failed to mention and which I will briefly highlight. The RASA 20.5 x 14 prop was exemplary. Although I am relatively new to the world of F3A competition, I have been incredibly fortunate to fly a Berryl on a C50 comp, an Integral on a C50, an Integral with a 30-10, and a Delro with a 25-12 all on 20.5 x 14 APC props except for the Delro which had a RASA. So far the RASA seems to be the fastest and quietest prop I have flown.

can773

My Feedback: (1)

I am still curious to see the 25-12 with the big prop and no esc restriction (ie: stick a big controller in there and let it go) against the 30-10.

I think you will see the smaller stator of the 25 series fall off compared to the 30 series on the bigger props. The 30-10 was originally conceived around the 21" and 22" props, the 20.5x14 was not around at the time the motor was developed!

Dont wreck a motor to satisfy my curiosity though

2Sunny

First, I too would love to see an absolute max test. The motor I have now is the only one around, but more are on the way and once I'm assured a backup I will be bent on trying to push the motors to their limits.

Second, I find it fascinating that the speed controllers seem to have upper limits on the RPM. The Castle 85HV stopped at 5750, the Schulze Future 32.55KA stopped at 5850, and the YGE stopped at 6000 RPM. The limits did not appear to be amp related (although as I mentioned above the 5850 limit on the 30-10 with the Schulze coincided with what appeared to be an 80 limit as well), and I was not aware that that was how speed controllers worked. Does anyone have any information with regards to the limit functions on speed controllers. Are they programmed as such or is it some coincidental function of the poles and power setting?


So now that the data is in, I'm certain many folks are wondering why the heck I bother. I mean really - just go fly - right? Well I feel a need to explain a little . . .

I only started flying 3 years ago and began with gliders on Redondo Beach, CA then moved up to light electrics. The progression in motors, batteries, and ARF's during my brief RC career has been stupendous and leads me to look continuously for the "latest and greatest". So keeping in mind that motors and batteries are getting lighter and stronger month by month whilst F3A 2M planes are struggling to hit the 11 lb mark, I have been on the lookout for "break throughs" that would help make 11 lbs trivial. Fortunately I'm friends with UAL767 so I can accelerate my learning curve 100 fold through his vast encyclopedic mental data base, and when he told me that no one had really tried the 25-12 and I combined that with the knowledge of how underrated most motors are I was determined to try the 25-12. The motor ended up performing as well as I hoped, and so I come to my final analysis: F3A electric outrunner motors are about to hit the 500g mark. Already Scorpion has a 450g motor that is rated for 2400 watts continuous, and I'm certain that AXI and Hacker will match or exceed the 520g of the Plettenberg 25-12 soon enough. 600g + is too much and no one should settle for that!


Misc thoughts:

[ul]
I will certainly try larger props on the 25-12
If you want "Ludicrous Power" the 30-10 is your motor
I've ordered a Jeti Spin 75 which weighs a mere 55g and will post the data when I get it.
A Jeti Spin 75 + a 25-12 beats a C50+Jeti99 by 2 ozs
[/ul]

can773

My Feedback: (1)

There is no fixed RPM limit on the Schulze controller, there is a theoretical maximum based on the number of poles but you will never reach it. There is overcurrent protection, which adjusts the timing to restrict your motor so you don't draw any more power....you will know when you hit it as it will scare the crappola out of you the first time it happens.

I will hit well into the mid 6000's with the 30-10 on either the 32.55 or 32.80.

2Sunny

Chad,

I'm asking out of honest curiousity and in no way meaning to be disrespectful, but Chris and I and JR ran the 32.55 flat out and pushed the TX to the throttle limits but could not get the 30-10 above 5850. In addition Chris ran into a limit of 5750 on the Castle 85HV and 6000 on the YGE 80HV for the 30-10. Do you have any idea as to what we were doing that caused us to hit those limits? Why would they peg at round numbers, and why couldn't we get over 6000 RPM? Was it coincidental with the amp limits?

Joe

can773

My Feedback: (1)

I can't speak to the Castle or the YGE, but as long as you are sending enough signal (I think 2.0ms) to the Schulze then its running at full power and thats what it is. You will know it if you hit the amp limit, it is a tremendous screeching noise as the controller adjusts the timing and you will immediately throttle back just by instinct, so I don't think you have actually hit the amp limit yet.

Your top end ATV may be too low, thats the only setting that can really affect it. If you have a hitec programmer you can use it to see what the signal output is.

Environment plays a role as well, I get more rpm than guys at sea level. Its not unusual in my experience to see 200-300 rpm variance due to location.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Joe, maybe your next project can be the Neu 19xx series of hi-torque inrunners??? There are a few that theoretically would work on 10S, and because of the high torque they are directly coupled to the prop with no gears. I unfortunately couldn't afford (as in taking chances with reliability and performance) to be the guinea pig on this one. I called and asked both Neu and Castle Creations and they couldn't give me a reason why not to use them, but they both kept going toward the heavy, expensive, geared F3A motor.

http://www.neumotors.com/Site/1900_series.html

Sorry for hijacking the thread

serious power

Hi,
Chad is correct about 5850 not being a limit for the schulze.
We run the 80KA which is now rated for 95A cont /115A burst.
With an APC 20x15 reduced to ~ 18.75 x 15 and a fresh/near new pack (not high C ) but warmed to 35c we got 6800, (82A from memory)
We repeated this to be sure, RPM measured with a good taco, but on a relatively new motor.
With same pack at ambient 20c 6300/6400, (76A from memory).
This stuff is sometimes about 'what is the bottleneck' the particular system being evaluated.
We run the shortest possible leads (I mean short) and heavy duty connectors , no Y leads and if 2 x 5s a soldered link to make 10s.
We also really optimise motor and ESC cooling.

Brian

DaveL322

Ditto for the Castle stuff so far as RPM limit, ATV for signal pulsewidth (not sure of the exact number for Castle), ambient temp, and altitude. There is no specific RPM limit, and while there is current overprotection, I've never experienced it (and I have run some Castle ESCs very aggressively).

Regards,

Dave Lockhart
Team Castle

2Sunny

Not sure this is altogether useful in and of itself, but as part of the overall discussion involving increasing practice time I would say its noteworthy. I imagine my ability to fly slower and more efficiently as well as the change from a 21x14 to a 20.5x14 was more of an impact in reducing the power usage, but the two graphs below are a single complete Intermediate Sequence. The first flown with an Integral/EVO 30-10/APCe 21x14, and the second is a Delro/EVO 25-12/RASA 20.5x14. I found the change in cumulative mAhs used fascinating. Anyways just stting inside dreaming about nice weather

2Sunny

Finally the nice weather has returned, and I got out to fly six packs worth on my brand new E-Motion that I brought home yesterday. Anyways for anyone following this thread, you'll know that I put a 25-12 in this new plane and am very impressed so far. C. Moon recently changed out the esc to a Castle HV85 so we would have continuous data logging and so I thought I'd reawaken the discussion on this motor. Shown below is a tiny snippet of a 9 minute session using Rhino 4900s, Plettenberg 25-12, Castle ICE HV80, and a RASA CFK 20.5x14 prop. Looks like 2300 to 2400 watts of input gets me 6200 to 6300 RPM.



Does anyone know how this stacks up against a 30-10 or a C50?


I have both motors to test myself, but I will have to put the Castle in to get a fair comparison.


Thanks as always,


Joe

Chris Moon

My Feedback: (8)

Joe, I think you meant to say the new ICE 80HV is installed in your plane.

2Sunny

Edit made. Thanks!

can773

My Feedback: (1)

You really need static numbers to compare, there is very little in the way of inflight data.

2Sunny

Beating the proverbial "Dead Horse" . . .



Anyways, I now have 5 days of solid flying with my new Delro E-Motion on the Plettenberg 25-12, and what I want to emphasize to anyone reading this silly diatribe is that this motor exceeds all requirements for F3A flying. I admit I am not an advanced pilot, but neither am I a slouch and I can assure anyone trying to build light, with a budget big enough for a quality motor, that this motor is more than enough. I only hope that nerves don't get the best of me at the Nats 'cuz I want everyone that is curious to come check out this plane-motor combo to see that it's got the "stuff". 2 ozs lighter than its big brother, but no loss in usable power. As yet another test I have ordered a 21 x 15 prop and expect to have data up in a couple of days.

The whole point for me here is this:

1) inrunners are coming in under 500g
2) e-builders are complaining its difficult to meet 5000g with 600g motors and 1200g+ cheap batteries
3) outrunners require no maintenance and are preferred by most pilots for simplicity
4) a 500g outrunner powerful enough for F3A is NOT a dream
5) I think we should all demand a 500g outrunner for the future!


So anyways, thats it . . . and I promise to leave it alone after the Nats


Joe

2Sunny

No work for me 'cuz of that mean ole Volcanic cloud and no practice 'cuz of the rain here in Westchester County so I took the time this morning to do some static testing:


1) Rasa 20.5 x 14 (75g)
2) Rasa 20 x 15 (72g)
3) APCe 21 x14 (108g)



Results from my ICE HV80 are shown below. The first graph is the 20.5 x14, second 20 x 15, and third 21 x14.

The 20.5 14 and 21 x 14 were around 6100 to 6200 RPM while the bigger biting 20x15 was just under 6000 RPM max. All three props were drawing more than 3000 watts with the 20x15 hitting 89 amps and 3300 watts. I only held the power for about 2 seconds, but I left the 20x15 on the plane and plan on flying it as soon as possible.

2Sunny

Today I tried the RASA 20x15. For sure I'm improving and learning to use the throttle more judiciously, but the change in power I used for an Intermediate Sequence is so large I have to believe that this motor-prop combo has a certain level of improved efficiency. The added speed allowed me to use less than half throttle almost throughout the whole routine. Even in the climbing portion of a reverse cuban, I never needed to go over half throttle. In total (including a power on taxi in) I used a mere 1860 mAhs for the whole sequence. Thats a mere 300 or so mAh per minute! Obviously I need to try this a few more times and see if this is some kind of fluke or if it really represents an improved efficiency.

Efficiency aside, I can also say without hesitation that the 20x15 RASA prop is an awesome choice for this motor. The motor was absolutely cool to the touch at the end and the plane had way more power than necessary. The data logger shows a nice peak at about 6000 RPM and 2700 watts at the beginning which is my stall turn before entering the box and a decent 5750 RPM 2400 watts on the final stall turn that ends the Intermediate Sequence. Not bad for a 520g outrunner!



Joe

2Sunny

News from the day . . .

Flew today in 14 gust 22 knot winds. Scary as heck, but I heard last years Nats were similar so I decided to try. Two heli boys sat and watched hoping for something "spectacular", but happily I disappointed them (Except for when my plane blew off the bench . . . yikes . . . fortunately no damage.)


Anyways, the 25-12 with a RASA 20x15 kicked butt. I wish I'd had a pattern flyer with me 'cuz I think I had my best practice session ever. I flew big and fast. Much faster than yesterday, but I had to because of the wind. The graphs below show it well. RPM peaked at 6300, watts over 2900, and current close to 80, but so far nothing more than 2700 mAhs out of the CellPro 10S on the recharge. I am excited to share this new setup with some fellow e-pattern prop heads, but sadly only Anthony is nearby and he's only a half e-dude so it may be a couple of weeks.


That's it for today!


Cheers,



Joe

P.S. Watch for a video post later that shows the crazy wind

2Sunny

The wind . . .



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBT6UAgRxWQ[/youtube]



Special Weather Statement for Northern New Haven, CT

Local Radar Map



Issued by The National Weather Service
New York City, NY
12:52 pm EDT, Mon., Apr. 19, 2010

... GUSTY NORTHWEST WINDS AND RELATIVELY LOW HUMIDITY THIS AFTERNOON...

THE COMBINATION OF NORTHWEST WINDS GUSTS APPROACHING 25 MPH... RELATIVE HUMIDITY LEVELS FALLING TO AROUND 30 PERCENT ACROSS PORTIONS OF THE AREA AND DRY FINE FUELS WILL LEAD TO AN INCREASE RISK OF RAPID SPREAD OF ANY FIRES THAT WERE TO IGNITE THIS AFTERNOON.

Anthony-RCU

My Feedback: (2)

Sounds like conditions at BDS the last two Sundays!
Half E-dude! My Brio is on the bench for a conversion right now!

wagen017

Curious to see how the 25-12 has been holding up this summer. Are you still happy with it? Any changes to the setup?

Did anybody else follow Joe's example and go for the 25-12 in a pattern setup?

Volkert

2Sunny

Follow on from the crazy guy with the 25-12. I know in this day and age everyone wants more power, but I'm into my second season now and still love the 25-12. I flew at the Nats last year and not once did someone say "you could use some more power on that plane"; in fact plenty of folks asked what I had for a motor that performed so well! Also of interest is that now that I have one E-Motion with the 25-12 and a second with the 30-10 I get to fly both on a regular basis and compare. The honest truth is I can not tell the difference. I would love to have a Master level flier take both planes up for a spin and see if they can tell the difference without knowing in advance. Also since I have Castle HVs with data logging in both planes it's easy to see that regardless of the prop I use 20.5 x 14 or 20 x 15 or 21 x 14 I get the same RPM from both motors. I know no one else has tried this, but I'm tellin' you guys this is a 520g outrunner that has every bit of power necessary. I'm certain Chad is correct that if I tried to push well over 3000 watts with a 22 inch prop the little motor would show its limitations, but I don't honestly believe anyone needs more than 3000 watts and 6300 RPM on a 20.5 x 14 . . .

so come on . . .

who's gonna be the first serious flyer to give it a try


Joe in NY


Tomorrow I'm gonna try to get static numbers from both planes using a 21 x 15 and I'll post the data without saying which is which to see if anyone can tell !