Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (Full Version)

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2Sunny -> Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 3:17 PM)

Somehow I was born wanting to try things just slightly different from everyone else [:)] I know the Plettenberg 30-10 Evo is THE motor of choice for the pros, but having flown several weeks now with my Pletty powered Integral, I am convinced the 30-10 is way too much motor. Of course this flies in the face of advice I am offered by the man I respect more than anyone else for his e-knowledge and impartiallity, but I can't help coming back to this question of wouldn't a smaller motor be better? Here's what brings me to the question:


1) Most everyone that I know using the Pletty 30-10 are adjusting their throttle endpoint to approximately 80% of max, and according to DaveL this is NOT efficient.

quote:



. . . Lowering the throttle endpoint will reduce the watts at the motor allowing the ESC to see the motor and continue to time properly. However, lowering the throttle endpoint is not the best answer in terms of efficiency, or stress on the ESC and lipos. Lowering the throttle endpoint is not reducing the peak amps switched on/off by the ESC, it is simply reducing the amount of 'on' time. The better answer is to reduce the prop size, and return the endpoint to full throttle (which may or may not be equal to 100%).

Regards,

Dave Lockhart, Team Castle







2) Atleast for my 402 Sequence, 2200 watts peak power is plenty. (see attached graph)


3) The 13XL Comp is slightly less powerful than the Pletty 30-10, but folks use it to great advantage as well.






So, is the Plettenberg 25-12 Evo enough for the average pattern "Joe"? Who has tried one? What were the results if any?


As always thanks to one and all for taking time to help the newbie along [;)]



JP



F3A Unlimited -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 6:16 PM)

The savings are about 10g and < $10. Would probably work but for less than $10 savings, probably better to just buy the 30-10 Evo.



J Lachowski -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 7:12 PM)

Joe, the endpoint has nothing to do with how you manage the throttle. You need to spend a few sessions with me next spring on use of throttle with the Pletty. We just may have to tweak the shape of your throttle curve and see how much of the throttle you are using and break you of any bad habits. If you are going all the way to full throttle on the stick, especially early in the flight, things aren't set right and ya just need to figure out how much less you need [;)]



JAS -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 8:02 PM)

What about different props? I've found some props to not have enough speed for me, but might work well for intermediate. Try a 21x12, 21x13 and 21x13.5 and see how they feel.



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 10:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ual767

The savings are about 10g and < $10. Would probably work but for less than $10 savings, probably better to just buy the 30-10 Evo.



The stats show a 65g difference, 520g vs 585g. Is it possible the 25 Evo is a newer animal, and no one has given her a go? The Pletty site says the 25 Evo came after the 30 Evo as a direct by product. Truth is it all comes back to my quest to eek out the most efficient setup so as to maximize practice time, and please don't think I'm being "pig headed" 'cuz its only that I have time and curiosity to spare that drives me to ask. Plus I don't mind spending an extra dollar or two in the name of science if no one has good data on this motor [:D]


Jason - you can bet I'll be tryin' a few different props!



Joe - I thought free training was part of the package deal [;)]






JP



F3A Unlimited -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 10:17 PM)

My bad. I was looking at Xtra 30 -not the EVO weight



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 10:30 PM)

And not wanting to get off topic, but I found this photo while researching the Pletty 25.

Jason - Did the plane in the photo have the Pletty in it or the 14XL? Is it a twin of mine?


Just curious as always.


JP



wagen017 -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 10:31 PM)

The Evo30-10 is overpowered, that is exactly why I like it. I have flown now about 140 flights with it and I am learning throttle management which in my mind is a good thing. Why settle for less??

What makes me wonder a bit is why in another thread you mention you fly your Integral with a 13XL.... Or do you have two Integrals now?

Volkert



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 10:48 PM)

Without a doubt most folks prefer the extra power, and that's awesome, but I'm after my own sense of perfection here [:)]

And, yes you caught me I have acquired several planes only because I'm incredibly fortunate to have the resources to try what I want. So now I have 2 Integrals (one being a JAS original) as well as a Beryll, and I'd like to try a 25 Evo in one of them unless someone can convince me the motor doesn't "cut it".





wagen017 -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/22/2009 10:57 PM)

Great stuff!! I would stick with the 30-10!

Volkert



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/23/2009 12:41 AM)

What we need here is for Chad to chime in [:)] If anyone has data on the 25-12 Evo, it would be him. Guess I'll shoot him a PM.

At the moment, I'm thinking I would like to try the whole package from Pletty including their proprietary spinner and propeller connection. The literature says the "controller" is inside the housing as well so I've asked my good buddy and sole US Pletty rep to inquire as to whether or not that is accurate. I think it'd be a hoot to try the 25-12 with one of the special Pletty props. We'll see . . .




[image]http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad115/JoePeck66/25Spinner.jpg[/image]



JAS -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/23/2009 2:31 AM)

The controller is not inside anything, I do know that.

The plane in that pic is the twin to yours, but this one has the Pletty (30-10 Evo with 21x14 APC-E) in it. Obviously the one you had, had the Hacker (14XL with 21x14 APC-E).

I've seen Chad fly with the 25 back in the day (smaller 2m plane than Integral) and it will certainly be smaller. I'm sure he will tell you more about it. I don't remember the weight of his set-up, but my comment to him at the Worlds was... Hey Chad, when are you going to use full power and fly with some speed...lol.



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/23/2009 4:10 AM)

Jason -

Is there a chance that the 25-12 Evo is a newer version of the 25 series motor? And, have you had a chance to try one them-there new fangled props that attach on the side and have a slight fold to them? Honestly, I'm thinkin' the 25 Evo might be different 'cuz I know Chad tried the 25-13 originally and that was the predecessor to the 25-12 Evo. But, bein' the "new kid on the block" I know its way more likely that I'm missing something obvious. Either way, I'm still lovin' my Shulman Integral. I'm expectin' to fly it in the Nats next year, and I only hope I don't embarrass myself after all this online banter.

And thanks for the info on the "controller". I knew that was too good to be true [;)]


JP



JAS -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/23/2009 4:28 AM)

Oops... I too got excited. Chad flew the 13. Sorry, don't know anything about the 12. I've tried a couple of folding props but probably just didn't give them enough of a chance. I'll stick with the APC.



DaveL322 -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/23/2009 7:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2Sunny
Of course this flies in the face of advice I am offered by the man I respect more than anyone else for his e-knowledge and impartiallity,
JP


Thanks!

If I recall correctly, I've run 12 different brands/sizes/configurations in my planes (just about everything viable exepting 5330, 13/14XL, and Evo, all of which I've flown in others planes). Comments I would have to your queries/line of thinking -

Tthe spinner mounted option places a lot of stress on the nose of the plane, and most of the Plett guys went away from this setup (Chad may be able to comment specifically why).

Most setups in pattern are not running at peak efficiency at full throttle...peak efficiency (least of amount of watts dissipated as heat) for viable pattern type setups is generally much lower than peak power (think 30, 40, 50% of peak power; several of the E-calculators show this). If you want to reduce power, you can do it with a smaller motor (on a smaller prop), and save some weight (and lose compatability with your other setups). Another way to do it would be to reduce prop size on the existing motor (30-10 Evo, or 13/14XL) which would retain compatibility and increase the amount of time the motors spends close to the peak efficiency.

Given equal battery and ESC, and 2 different size motors of equivalent design, the larger motor propped for 2200 watts (from the lipo) will put more power at the prop than the smaller motor propped for 2200 (from the lipo). So you would actually be able to use fewer input watts on the larger motor, which would reduce stress on the lipo and ESC.

While using the 80% endpoint is not the most efficient way to reduce power, a lot of guys are doing this because it makes it easier to control the throttle, and on a given day if more power is needed, bumping up the endpoint is easy to do. For a lot of the top flyers, it is not uncommon to complete flights with minimal throttle use above 80% (but it is available, if needed).

Regards,

Dave




can773 -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/23/2009 9:45 AM)

Hey guys,

Wow, this thread got busy :) I have been elbow deep in flooring reno's on my house and just getting to RCU today :)

So way back in '05 I flew a 25-13 on an Enigma. Compared to an Integral that plane had a dinky fuse...wings probably a little bigger, but not at thick. That model was about 10.25 lbs with that motor. We were running the original TP 5300's on 19x12W props, spinning about 6200-6300 rpm and 70-75A. We could run the 19x12 standard blade but the amps were just a little high and at the time the only controller Schulze had was the 32.55, the 80 was yet to made for use in pattern.

Flying FAI that setup really struggled, you could do it, but you didn't have any room for mistakes or you didnt have enough power of the tops. I flew that at the '05 Nats, and did ok but was not happy with the performance. The motor was running really hot as well which made it tricky to make sure things would not fail (I never failed a motor, but others did).

After the Nats I changed to the original 30-10. This was much better compared to the 25-13. Although the 30-10 had a few less watts input and less RPM than the 25-13, it was doing it with the 21" props and so it had much better pulling power. Overall weight of the Enigma was maybe 10.3 lbs with that motor in it so still pretty light. I flew the 21x13W mostly after that, since I made that change after the Nats and only a few weeks before the '05 Worlds I just didnt have much time to get the exact setup nailed (should have used a 21x14 in hindsight!). It was really windy in France, and my 21x13W was really slow, but still way better than the 25-13 motor would have been. I flew so slow I almost went over time on one flight, I think I landed with less than 2 or 3 seconds left to the 10 min. mark.

The Pletty's attended that Worlds and we spent lots of time with them, they were very interested in pursuing a motor for pattern, and the 30-10 Evo seeds were planted :)

There were major changes from the 30-10 to the Evo, stator geometry (you will notice the stator near the center is slotted), windings were done differently, fewer poles, different stator material, and I am sure some others. A lot of this was leveraged from Pletty's work in big motors like the Predator. About a month before the 2006 US Nats myself and Adam G. got prototype Evo motors. There was a weight gain on these to the original 30-10, but the increase in power offset that :) After that I never looked back and still use that motor to this day.

The new 25 Evo motors will share the same tech that the 30 Evo has. The motors are shorter I believe which will make the stator shorter, so there is no way they will generate the torque that the 30 Evo can make. They will have more power than the early 25-13 did for sure. I have never tried one, and probably wont, I think it would make a fantastic motor for a bigger 110 size model that you would run 10s on, but I don't think they are suitable for a modern 2m F3A plane. Sooner or later you will be in a situation where you need the power and it wont be able to deliver it. The 30 Evo may seem excessive, but its really just learning to manage the power, there are always occasions where you will need the power, and you will be happy to have it!


Re: Props and prop couple.

I have never used the spinner mounted motor system. Mainly because I want to be able to run any prop, so preferred a conventional firewall mount to keep options open. Thats why I made the hub so I could try the folding props without giving up options :) I like the folders and plan to keep running them, but if something comes along better then I can change easily. Prop is such an important aspect when flying electric I think its important to keep evaluating this and you can't do it when you are tied to only one setup.

I don't want to take anything away from Pletty's setup, its a very well designed system and works great. Bernd Berschorner has used it for many years with great success, its just not how I want to do it. One point, you cannot use the vector steer (thrust vector) setup unless you use the spinner mounted motor!.


Hope that helps a bit? :)



Magne -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/26/2009 3:13 PM)

2Sunny,

quote:

3) The 13XL Comp is slightly less powerful than the Pletty 30-10, but folks use it to great advantage as well.


This is an interesting statement, I always thought the Plettenbergs and the Hackers were comparable in power.
How do you define "less powerful", do you mean it consumes less input power, has less output power, has a lower efficiency (and if so, at what power level), or simply that it spins a certain propeller at a lower speed?

I am currently building a new pattern model, but I have not yet decided whether I should go for an inrunner or an outrunner, so I am interested in opinions, and what they are based on

Regards,
Magne.



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/26/2009 3:52 PM)

Hi Magne,

My two Integrals shown above have the different motors in them. The performance is virtually identical for the Intermediate level flying I do and the graphs below clearly show this except that the Plettenberg "feels" much more powerful when you push it to maximum.

BUT in my planes, the Plettenberg is restricted to 83% of maximum power on the TX throttle curve, and the 13XL Comp is running to 100% on the throttle curve. The Plettenberg will reach power over 3000 watts if you wanted. It is my understanding that the 13XL can not reach the same maximum power with the same propeller both in electrical input as well as RPM output, BUT both motors produce more power than is necessary. Of course for more professional input I would contact DaveL or Chad above as they have much more experience than I do.




On a separate note, Mr. Moon has ordered a 30-10 AND a 25-12 for my Delro so this spring we should be able to post some comparative data just for fun [:D]




JP





EDIT: P.S. I should note that my inrunner setup seems to be 5 to 10% more efficient in power used, and again I believe that is commonly experienced by others.



Magne -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/27/2009 12:57 AM)

2Sunny,
Yes, I see what you mean.
But remember that the Plettenberg has a kv of 220 rpm/V, while the 13XL has a kv of 1249/6.7=186rpm/V.
So with the same propeller you should expect a significantly higher power level from the Pletty. (Although you'r not using quite the same propellers in your comparison, you are actually running the heavier load propeller on the fastest spinning motor, making the power difference even bigger.)
At the end, since the power from both motors is "sufficient", I would guess that what is important is efficiency, not max. possible power.
(Apart from other issues, such as simplicity of installation, sound/noise, personal preference etc.)
It really is a difficult choise, both motors seem to have some advantages as well as some disadvantages.

Regards,
Magne



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (11/27/2009 5:35 AM)

I have to add as a personal choice that the difference between a motor that requires 1 hour of maintenance every 50 to 70 flights versus one that essentially never requires maintenance is HUGE. I fly 6 packs a day when I practice so that equates to 1 hour of maintenance after every 10 to 12 practice sessions. Personally I think you should buy a 25-12 Evo and give us all some hard data for comparisons sake [;)] Either way best of luck!

JP



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (1/21/2010 7:29 PM)

Testing stuff can be fun [:D]


As promised here's some data from my Delro powered with a 25-12. For the Intermediate Sequence its is a stand out motor, but I can't be certain of any real power savings until I can test a 30-10 with a 20x13 prop:

The setup used for the graphs below was:

EVO 25-12
RASA 20-13
Schulze fut 32.55WK

The first two graphs are me doing 2 rounds of Intermediate using a TP 5300 PL V2. The second two graphs are UAL767 doing masters stuff with a TP PL V2 4350.


Without question the motor "Gets it done". The remaining question is why? It is 65g lighter than the 30-10, but unless there is a power savings from the lighter setup I'm not sure why anyone would try this unless weight was critical. In the coming weeks I'm going to try pushing the little motor with a 20.5x14 and then I can have an even better comparison. We'll see . . .





can773 -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (1/21/2010 8:08 PM)

Cough-RPM-Cough



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (1/21/2010 8:19 PM)

Darn ya just can't get away with anything anymore . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

Mr. Chad - Is that a frog stuck in your throat sir? [:)]



Of course being the apprentice I totally forgot about the added critical element of RPM. How can we really know where all that power is going unless we know how fast the prop is spinning. It could be burning up in heat for all we know. Anyways, I promise to rectify my errors in the coming weeks, and thanks for the gentle reminder. I just got stupid 'cuz I was all caught up in the excitement of the day.

P.S. I hope that cough gets better soon [:D]



JP




2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (1/25/2010 11:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: can773

Cough-RPM-Cough
O

On my iPhone now so real quick teaser:

25-12 5850 RPM 2740 watts 74 amps
30-10. 5850 RPM 2970. Watts 76 amps

both motors limited by esc both cool after run.

Short take 25-12 can hit 6000 RPM and 3000watts without pain!!



2Sunny -> RE: Plettenberg 25-12 Evo? Is it enough for most? (1/26/2010 12:21 AM)

Almost forgot


Prop was RASA 20.5 x 14



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