Tiered Insurance Poll

Tiered Insurance Poll
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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 9:14:36 PM

Posts: 1945
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline

The ama has already raised dues and it seems is looking to raise the dues/insurance again. If the ama goes to a tiered system I'll probably go UMA http://www.unitedmodelers.com/ as I don't go to many events to fly. It's sad that an organization designed to promote the hobby has inhibited it thru the insurance. I can't imagine only 1 insurance company to pick from for my car. They could charge what they want, give themselves raises whenever, increase the dues, mmmm, rates every year...and there's nothing that you could do except buy their insurance or walk. In this case, never compete in any events etc...

Since it's a monopoly It seems that there would be a lawsuit there somewhere? Jon

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HxRNgkjpQ

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 11:43:41 PM

J_R

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jonkoppisch
The ama has already raised dues and it seems is looking to raise the dues/insurance again. If the ama goes to a tiered system I'll probably go UMA http://www.unitedmodelers.com/ as I don't go to many events to fly. It's sad that an organization designed to promote the hobby has inhibited it thru the insurance. I can't imagine only 1 insurance company to pick from for my car. They could charge what they want, give themselves raises whenever, increase the dues, mmmm, rates every year...and there's nothing that you could do except buy their insurance or walk. In this case, never compete in any events etc...

Since it's a monopoly It seems that there would be a lawsuit there somewhere? Jon [/QUOTE]

I'm curious about what you said. In one breathe you say you might go to UMA and in the next you call the AMA a monopoly. How can that be?

You might also keep in mind that the UMA does not cover a club or a landlord in the way that the AMA does for liability claims. You may want to increase you homeowners insurance to something in the neighborhood of 3 million if you make the jump.

JR

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 11:47:54 PM

Posts: 1945
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline

ama has a monopoly on the events right? If you don't have ama you can't fly/compete. Jon

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HxRNgkjpQ

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/12/2003 8:39:27 AM

J_R

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline

jonkoppisch

Not exactly. Go to the UMA website. They do have an events section. It appears that you pay for what you get.

JR

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/12/2003 3:58:20 PM

Posts: 1945
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Not exactly. Go to the UMA website. They do have an events section. It appears that you pay for what you get. [/QUOTE]

You can't compete in imac, pylon, giant scale, toc etc unless you have the ama.

[QUOTE]It appears that you pay for what you get.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you pay for more than you get. I don't compete but I pay for it. I don't fly in muncie but I pay for it. The only reason that I have the ama insurance is so I can fly at my local field and occasionaly at the local events. To me, ama is nothing more than an insurance agency. I need the insurance to fly.

I noticed that the sponsored event by the UMA doesn't discriminate against the AMA. AMA insured hobbyists are welcome to fly/participate also with proof of insurance. That's sure different than someone else we know!!

Jon

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HxRNgkjpQ

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/12/2003 7:54:05 PM

J_R

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline

The point is that the AMA is not a monopoly. Does it offer a whole lot more? You seem to think so. The fact that I will never fly in an indoor meet has nothing to do with the issue of being a monopoly.

JR

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/12/2003 8:21:54 PM

Posts: 1945
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline

I say monopoly as the ama claims to want to further the hobby but then descriminates against who can participate. Not on the grounds of whether they are covered in case of an accident, but on the grounds of who they are associated with. As far as the indoor meet. I'm for all kinds of meets, just don't really want to be the checkbook for it.

**I think that we agree that we disagree so....**

If you're ever if town, come on over and fly with us. AMA or UMA, as long as you're covered with proof of insurance :^)

Jon

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HxRNgkjpQ

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/12/2003 8:53:27 PM

Posts: 2361
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
The point is that the AMA is not a monopoly.

JR [/QUOTE]

Just as Microsoft isn't a monopoly.

Another of those issues over what 'is' is.

Abel

(in reply to J_R)

Monopoly....? - 7/12/2003 11:40:23 PM

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Joined: 4/23/2002
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
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If the AMA is not a monopoly, then Ma BELL was not a monopoly years ago....at least with Microsoft, you have other operating system choices...what is the alternative to AMA, if you want to compete....?

Someone needs to put a "hot poker" up the EC's BUTT.............!

At some point, the AMA WILL start listening to it's members, and not be so self-centered, and closed mined with everyone's money....! NAH...It isn't a Monopoly, it is a "GROWTH".........! :

_____________________________

W. C. Fischer - Panacea Engineering Co.
AMA 3156 Scientific Leader Member
Helicopters Don't Fly....They Beat the Air Into Submission..!

(in reply to J_R)

Re: Monopoly....? - 7/13/2003 12:56:19 AM

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by heli001
If the AMA is not a monopoly, then Ma BELL was not a monopoly years ago....at least with Microsoft, you have other operating system choices...what is the alternative to AMA, if you want to compete....?

Someone needs to put a "hot poker" up the EC's BUTT.............!

At some point, the AMA WILL start listening to it's members, and not be so self-centered, and closed mined with everyone's money....! NAH...It isn't a Monopoly, it is a "GROWTH".........! : [/QUOTE]

Hmmm...

The AMA is maintained by the Standing Rules that allow for lots of election antics that would be criminally illegal in most open, democratic communities. The head of the Nomination committee made it clear to me that rules were and will be followed in this years ballot setting. Check them out because they do not disallow incumbents attempting to select opponents.

I discussed the nominations process with a friend in Washington D.C. this morning and his response was: "I guess your EC gets to pick the communist on the ballot". This was while I was telling him the about the games the District VIII has decided to play.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to J_R)

Antics - 7/13/2003 2:06:54 AM

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Joined: 4/23/2002
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
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Jim,

I am certainly not a Leader Member, a CD, an AVP, or do I have anything to do with the election process other than carry ONE vote in the elections, even though I have been a member for many years. I am not in District V, but am 3 miles away, and am very concerned about that district, because I do most of my flying there....!

The ANTICS that have been demonstrated by the District V VP, have totally turned me off to the way that the AMA operates. For this person to be allowed to continue in an executive position, with ALL of the documented items that he has said and done is atrocious....! If these actions are typical of the AMA and it's leaders, maybe there needs to be some type of independent investigation. I am certainly in favor of a third party, to do nothing but look at the AMA financial statements (current), and the way they are administered. We as members only get to see what they have done a year later.....we all have made an investment in this organization, we certainly should be kept up to date with information, not just what the leaders want us to see......!!!!!

I totally understand that WE, as members voted these people in office, but it looks like some of them are just there for the free ride and benefits, and not listening to the membership. It is very easy to criticize an operation, but the amount of negative things that have been aired on just this site alone, should raise someone's eyebrows. Can they be so far removed from the membership, that they do not care to listen....? And I DO believe that they visit and read this site, unless they live in a damn cave........!

As I said earlier, it may not be a monopoly, but it is as close as you can get to one without the anti-trust suit....! The election process is a joke, with the "good ole boy" mentality. For the incumbent to be able to water down the election with his own nominations is just plain damn ludicrous.....!

< Message edited by heli001 -- Jul 12 2003 9:11PM >

_____________________________

W. C. Fischer - Panacea Engineering Co.
AMA 3156 Scientific Leader Member
Helicopters Don't Fly....They Beat the Air Into Submission..!

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/13/2003 3:32:31 AM

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline

Mr. Fischer,

Except for your next to last sentence, and the suggestion of an additional 3rd party financial investigation, I think we are in agreement.

The reason I disagree with the financial investigation issue is that unless the budget process is made public, there is no way to do more than get a historical perspective. As we agree, you cannot drive your car based on were you have been. I think we need more evidence of the planning that goes into a budget.

Part of the problem is that most clubs and members want their picture in MA rather than substantive reports of goings on, plans, and concerns. The members of the EC who wish to keep us in the dark claim that most of the stuff is sensitive and that is why we must live with historical information.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/13/2003 4:28:35 AM

Posts: 1138
Joined: 4/23/2002
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Status: offline

Jim,

There is no need to call me Mister. Even though I am probably older than you, I like to be addressed informally...W. C. is just fine.....

As WE, the membership, are funding the entire AMA in it's entirety, we certainly should have access to current financial, and day to day information. Of all the stock that I deal with (as a stock holder), we at least get an up to date financial report, and projections for the next years budget, to review.

What in the world could be so sensitive, that needs to be held from the membership. This seems to be an archaic way of running an organization. Are the members not worthy, or able to understand the operation of the AMA? There is enough talent in this group, that it could be as streamlined as a Fortune 500 company.

I do agree that WE, the members, do NOT take an active part in the elections, as we should. That is what prompted the remark about the elections being a joke. The fact that the incumbents have so much control over the elections, really needs to be changed..........

Do you not agree that the budget should be made an open item to the membership...? There are a bunch of items, in past budgets, that I certainly would like someone to explain to me....

Someone at the top has the Piccard of Star Trek Next Generation syndrome, and just says "Make it so" and the money is allocated......

_____________________________

W. C. Fischer - Panacea Engineering Co.
AMA 3156 Scientific Leader Member
Helicopters Don't Fly....They Beat the Air Into Submission..!

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/13/2003 5:53:40 AM

Posts: 2361
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by heli001

I do agree that WE, the members, do NOT take an active part in the elections, as we should. That is what prompted the remark about the elections being a joke. The fact that the incumbents have so much control over the elections, really needs to be changed..........

Do you not agree that the budget should be made an open item to the membership...? There are a bunch of items, in past budgets, that I certainly would like someone to explain to me....

Someone at the top has the Piccard of Star Trek Next Generation syndrome, and just says "Make it so" and the money is allocated...... [/QUOTE]

W.C. -
I think your comments reflect the sentiments of many of us, to varying degrees of course. I'm still reasonably well employed, so the amount of dues isn't a big driver behind my interest AMA budgetary details. How it is allocated is of more interest to me. Some AMA programs are of importance to me, many are not. To some degree, the apportionment of dollar resources is a measure of how seriously the administration is pursuing those objectives that matter to me.
Shortly after DB took office (yeah, eons ago) he called staff and DVPs together for a love-in, where his objectives for the organization in the near term were presented and discussed. These were published in MA, and a few caught my interest. Increasing the number of local flying sites by X percent in the next Y years was one of them that I was very much in concert with. Spend another $Z million on the Muncie facilities was another, and among those that did not align with my priorities. Increasing membership by some specified percentage was another; that one got a yawn from me. With a halfway decent budget, I and any other member with the interest should be able to gauge at least roughly the administration's prioritization and performance towards the objectives that mattered to us (sorry, that last sentence seems awkward, but you're a businessman and so I'm sure MBO is a familiar concept). Obviously, little such information has been forthcoming. To be fair, the resourses allocated to and progress toward one of DB's 10 or so stated objectives is quite clear in the budgetary data that has made available. That is the goal to spend more on Muncie. They met and far exceeded my expectations on that one.

I have little to suggest regarding the election process and antics of some of the incumbents. The latest by S. Frank, emulating the incumbent-in-perpetuity from D-V, has given me something to ponder as to how I might alter my voting strategy, though. Once in, the SOB is going to be there till he croaks. Ergo, vote for the oldest one with his hat in the ring.

Abel

(in reply to J_R)

Dues - 7/13/2003 6:16:53 AM

Posts: 1138
Joined: 4/23/2002
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
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Abel,

I apologize to you and the other readers of this thread....as it has gone off topic from the "Tiered Rate Poll" subject, but it does serve a useful purpose. The idea of tiered rates falls in line with the other seemingly silly ideas that have come from the TOP......

As you, I work for a living, and the 58.00 a year is not the issue...the issue is...what is being done with that money to promote the hobby...? A small part of it is for SECONDARY insurance for the modeler, as your home owners is primary. Insurance for the land owner is a great idea, but I would like someone to list the payouts that have been made for all of these so called claims of "trip and fall" incidents. With the amount of money that SHOULD be in escrow with the AMA, they certainly could be SELF insured, and not have to worry about sourcing out the insurance for a bid, if that is what is done.....makes me wonder if there are any ties between the EC and the insurance company that underwrites the academy........

The money that is spent on Muncie, IMO is NOT what the general population of the group wants, but we all still have to eat it. Is the entire EC sleeping when allocation of funds comes up for vote....? Or do they just do what they feel is good for them at the moment.......Damn...somebody needs to WAKE the hell up and listen to the membership that is willing to take an active part in this organization....!

_____________________________

W. C. Fischer - Panacea Engineering Co.
AMA 3156 Scientific Leader Member
Helicopters Don't Fly....They Beat the Air Into Submission..!

(in reply to J_R)

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/13/2003 6:21:07 AM