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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/8/2003 10:57:54 PM   
J_R


 

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The cost of insurance in 2003 will be about $15 per member including the cost of the commercial policy and self-insurance by the AMA. Half of this will go toward "trip and fall" type claims. That leaves about $7.50 per member to tier, should tiered insurance become a reality.

If we were to charge the indoor rubber members $1 per year insurance, and the perceived highest risk to jets at double the cost, or $15 a year, the effect would be to lower the indoor members dues to $51.50 and raise the jet members to $65.50. These two would be the extremes with most members lying somewhere between and closer to the current $58 a year.

It would fall to the clubs to enforce the tiered insurance.

Other issues would involve CD's having to check for the proper insurance at sanctioned events and the possibility that administration costs at AMA headquarters might go up.

If we assume that these numbers are reasonable, please cast your opinion in the poll.
       Post #: 1

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 12:30:48 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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I have a hard time believing the insurance amount is so small. It has to be more than that to justify the last dues increase. IMO the trip and fall claims may be more numerous, but I doubt they represent half the dollars spent, the individual claims would be smaller.

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 12:48:21 AM   
J_R


 

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Sport_Pilot

The numbers for insurance in 2002 are in the financial statement on the AMA web page in the Members Only section. In 2002 the commercial policy cost $768,191 which amounts to $2.72 per adult member (about 140,000). If anything the estimates for 2003 are high. The balance is for the self insured portion of the insurance. The numbers for 2002 are in the financial statement as well. If you figure the self insurance was $5-6 per member in 2002, you are about right.

The rationale for raising the dues $10 was to avoid having to do it again anytime soon. Not a bad idea with the estimated increase in the commercial policy in 2003 of about 70%. Nobody ever said that the entire amount of the increase was for insurance.

There have been several large 'trip and fall' claims. When it involves the health of a child, that is to be expected. Example: a couple of years ago a child was crushed to death by a windsock pole under construction. You can imagine the cost of that type of settlement. Of course, the agreement for settlement requires that the exact terms not be disclosed. You may also recall the incident where a child fell on some re-bar sticking up on the flight line, or the incident where a club member was expelled without just cause. These settlements are not cheap and do, indeed, account for about half of the insurance claims.


JR

< Message edited by J_R -- Jul 8 2003 7:53PM >

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 1:48:23 AM   
mongo


 

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jr, i really believe that you have made a basic assumption that is wrong. that is that the ec will base the tiers on the actual cost of insurance. i do not see them doing this, but rather arbitarily assigning values instead.

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for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 1:59:07 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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You mean that if the AMA is to represent you and your expensive turbine planes, you are going to have to pay more for that as well? Not sure I agree with that.

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 2:58:31 AM   
Ron S



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On a previous thread, it was mentioned the very low count of jet fliers versus the rest of the AMA population. If so, increasing the AMA cost in this manner, and reducing the cost of the "rubber powered" groups, (and I'm sure they will all come out of the woodwork!), well, won't that reduce the total income in dues to the AMA???

Example: of 170k AMA members (or whatever it is), we might have 800 jet people paying $10 more, and we'll have 5000 "rubber" people paying $10 less, for a dues income of $42000 less now?

This is based on a loose (but probable) assumption there are many more rubber (or lightweight power) fliers than jet fliers in the AMA. But if true, then adjustments would have to be made to make up for possible shortfalls. One with better AMA demographic info could possibly shed some light.

I'm not necessarily against a tiered system...

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 3:36:12 AM   
mongo


 

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interesting thoughts ron.
however, i believe i know most the ec folks well enough to say, that the lowest tier would be the current dues level, and all tiers would add on from there. so no net loss at all.

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for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 4:29:26 AM   
Gordon Mc



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron S
Example: of 170k AMA members (or whatever it is), we might have 800 jet people paying $10 more, and we'll have 5000 "rubber" people paying $10 less, for a dues income of $42000 less now?[/QUOTE]


[tongue-firmly-in-cheek]

Nah .... you forgot a large part of the equation. There's more than just the jet guys that you can charge extra...

Newly soloed beginners are high risk due to their lack of experience, so a properly set up tier system will charge them a higher rate too. (Just as in auto insurance). Lots of beginners to charge.

Race planes are high risk too (even inside a pylon cage, you aren't safe, as was demonstrated by a fatality some years ago) - lots of race guys to charge...

Big airplanes are high risk too - lots of them to charge...

(Do Big raceplanes get double-dipped ?)

Elderly folk with diminishing reactions, eye-sight etc are high risk too (e.g. the elderly gentleman in Arizona who killed himself by flying his plane into himself when he lost sight of it in the sun) - lots of them to charge....

Pattern planes are high risk (after all, there's at least one fatality with a pattern plane in recent history, and that's more than several of the other supposedly high-risk categories have had).

Novelty airplanes are high risk too (e.g. just look at the flying lawnmower that killed a guy in a sports stadium). Not quite so many of them to charge, but by now the shortfall should have been more than addressed anyway.

[/tongue-firmly-in-cheek]

Too bad the poll doesn't have an option of "Yes, but only if the actual risks of each category are properly and fully assessed". That would also help address the issue that the number of "No" choices is double the number of "yes" choices. :

Gordon

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 4:34:05 AM   
J_R


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mongo
jr, i really believe that you have made a basic assumption that is wrong. that is that the ec will base the tiers on the actual cost of insurance. i do not see them doing this, but rather arbitarily assigning values instead. [/QUOTE]

mongo

The point of this poll is to let the EC see what RCU members think. Remember, several of them do monitor this group. If I were to place a bet, I think that we will not have tiered rates in the foreseeable future. I am under the impression that Dave Brown floated this idea on his own and had not had any substantial discussion with the EC members before he did. He has been known to take the pulse of the membership in this manner before.

JR

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       Post #: 9

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 5:10:37 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R
mongo

The point of this poll is to let the EC see what RCU members think. Remember, several of them do monitor this group. If I were to place a bet, I think that we will not have tiered rates in the foreseeable future. I am under the impression that Dave Brown floated this idea on his own and had not had any substantial discussion with the EC members before he did. He has been known to take the pulse of the membership in this manner before.

JR
[/QUOTE]

Hard way to live, playing target, but effective in determining where people really are going.

You have to admit he does have the courage of his convictions and best interests of the hobby and the AMA when he leads on an unpleasant subject just to see who is going to follow. I am sure he does this strictly to stir the pot and see if someone has a viable alternative to his straw man solution.


I wish my DVP was 1/2 as good.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

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       Post #: 10

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 5:16:31 AM   
J_R


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Branaum
I wish my DVP was 1/2 as good. [/QUOTE]

Whoa! Is that an endorsement, Jim?

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       Post #: 11

issue - 7/9/2003 5:31:57 AM   
ProfLooney



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Actuallyeven after all my griping abt the insurance and the large small plane complaining the insurance is the itty bittyiest part of your dues. they could even do an across the board insurance increase and not get any complaints from the membership. The answer is simple, instead of increasing dues all the time why not cut down on the amount of your dues that goes to fund these BS projects and the other needless things and just put that part of each persons dues towards the insurance. Why do we have to pay more for insurance because the AMA wants to build new hq flying fields and all kinds of other unnecessary stuff. How much insurance would that 10 million or whatever they spending on the new HQ would have bought without increasing dues. If anything they should drop back to the 45 a year rate.

Joe

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Re: issue - 7/9/2003 5:59:05 AM   
J_R


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ProfLooney
Actuallyeven after all my griping abt the insurance and the large small plane complaining the insurance is the itty bittyiest part of your dues. they could even do an across the board insurance increase and not get any complaints from the membership. The answer is simple, instead of increasing dues all the time why not cut down on the amount of your dues that goes to fund these BS projects and the other needless things and just put that part of each persons dues towards the insurance. Why do we have to pay more for insurance because the AMA wants to build new hq flying fields and all kinds of other unnecessary stuff. How much insurance would that 10 million or whatever they spending on the new HQ would have bought without increasing dues. If anything they should drop back to the 45 a year rate.

Joe
[/QUOTE]

How about ONE million on a new HQ building.

Since it is obvious you don't like to do any research before you post, read through this older thread that explains, in depth, including an analysis of the 2001 financial statement done at RCAmin's request (that's Marc, he owns/owned RCU), where the money goes and why. Marc was looking for the AMA's head when he requested help. It's the most 'hit upon' thread in this forum.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tm.asp?m=473634

JRR

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 6:19:30 AM   
Geistware



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I live in Atlanta and I pay over $6000 a year for four cars. Paying an additional $25 for insurance for my planes is nothing!

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Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 6:50:28 AM   
mongo


 

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jr,
i too believe that this is all moot. we will never see tiered rates.

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for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

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       Post #: 15

Tiered Insurance Poll - 7/9/2003 7:49:26 AM   
abel_pranger


 

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JR-
The list of choices in your poll is long, but still managed to dodge a firm yes or no from me! I think tiered rates could/should have a place. That place is insurance for categories of models/activities that the EC has deemed too risky to insure under their present, seemingly occult, criteria. Case in point is big racers (yeah, Gordon, that one's for you). Giant scale racers were left hung out to dry for several years while the EC pondered how to deal with them. Not faulting the EC, I had some queasy feelings about them as a spectator. At least early in that game when Madera, CA was the primary venue, there were many crashes. There were also many spectators. The organizers did a reasonable job of keeping potential out-of-control racing models separated from the crowd. So did the competitors: I recall a real beauty of a Tigercat that experienced a high-speed stall after rounding a pylon, sending it toward the crowd with too little altitude to allow for reasonable certainty of regaining control. The pilot had the guts and skill to spin it in before it could reach the spectator area - it probably cost him in excess of $10K and months of labor. It was apparent to me that the mass, speed, and wing loading of these models, along with a large crowd of spectators, made for a level of risk that would be very hard to assess intuitively as of similar order of magnitude that we experience in our usual club flying environment. Is it worth the risk, i.e., is it an 'acceptable' risk? I think it is. These events draw in many non-modelers, some fraction of which are inspired to become modelers by what they see. In that sense, it is a great promotion for our hobby and sport, and so AMA as well. Point of this long story is an example of an activity that AMA might have turned it's back on (and it appeared they did for quite a long time) due to liability risk. It might have been handled more expediently if AMA had a mechanism in place to provide insurance coverage at a special rate commensurate with the greater risk. I don't know what else may come down the pike, but I'd like to see some avenue of accommodation open to new aspects of our hobby/sport, as well as some current ones you have mentioned that are threatened with curtailment, due to a perceived risk that exceeds the comfort threshold of the EC in the current one-size-fits-all packaging of insurance. Some form of tiered rates would seem to be a viable way to do that.
BTW, I don't think AMA needs to bear all of the load re administration of special or tiered rates - SIGs like the JPO and GSRA , for examples, could be players representing the particular interests of their members. Administration at the club level isn't as big a deal as some have made it out to be either. For jets, they already have to check that pilots have the necessary AMA waivers. What's the big deal if more than one waiver level were involved, e.g., under and over 55 lbs? I submit that it wouldn't be a big deal, if it came down to a go/no-go ruling by the EC re those exceeding 55 lbs, wet.
The real bugaboo that I and others have brought up here previously is the prospect, or lack thereof, for realistic assessment of risk, and so apportionment of insurance premium cost. Don't have a ready answer to that one. Maybe the risk assessment consultants AMA has allegedly hired to investigate will.

Abel

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