Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > Pattern Universe - RC Pattern Flying > RC Pattern Flying
Reload this Page >

Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Notices
RC Pattern Flying Discuss all topics pertaining to RC Pattern Flying in this forum.

Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Old 02-07-2010, 01:42 PM
  #1  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

First off please forgive me if I ask folks to refrain from "bashing" UBECs in F3A. I am fully aware of the concerns, and the unorthodox nature of this approach right now. Point being I'd rather not have this devolve into a debate, but rather stay focused on the possible design and hardware options involved.


So . . .

On my first 2M ship there was a dual input/single output voltage regulator. Before I got it, Joey Hayes had been running the plane with two Lipos in a "Hot Battery Standby" configuration. Meaning only one battery was being used at a time, and the second battery would only turn on if the regulator could not maintain the selected output voltage using the primary battery. When I took the plane home I installed a [link=http://www.dimensionengineering.com/VHVBEC.htm]Dimension Engineering VHVBEC[/link] and put that in parallel with a Lipo. The result was a redundant RX power system where the output normally came from the VHVBEC, but had a regulated Lipo as a backup. My question is:


Is the [link=http://www.tech-aero.net/plr5-dr2]Tech-Aero PLR5-DR2[/link] the only dual input regulator that allows a "Hot Battery Standby"?


Is there a more elegant unit that combines a BEC plus a second power source in one package?


I am interested in this because I believe it offers the following advantages:

1) RX power redundancy.
2) Few if any RX battery charges required.
3) The ability to fly with no RX battery in a pinch.
4) Constant regulated output voltage for unchanging servo response.


I am fully aware that complexity brings dangers, but I am willing to try none the less . . . although I admit that I am only "considering" this and am most concerned that there would be a significant weight penalty plus the fact that it may be a bit of "over engineering" when a simple 700 mAh 6v NiMH will do an excellent job with little chance of failure and no added complexity In fact as I write this I'm just thinking that the unit, whatever it might be, would create a potential single source failure point which wholly defeats the design. Anyways, I'll stick with my original question:


What's available?




Thanks as always,



Joe P

Old 02-07-2010, 01:47 PM
  #2  
klhoard
My Feedback: (10)
 
klhoard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Collierville, TN
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Try this:

http://www.hangtimes.com/id33.html

Unless you really, really feel the need to reinvent the wheel. . .
Old 02-07-2010, 02:31 PM
  #3  
Jetdesign
My Feedback: (8)
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 7,056
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

I wonder if Ed could make something custom for you - that would be my first route

So you're after a UBEC that uses the 10S lipo for Rx power, and has a second/backup input for a small Rx battery in case of failure? I think it's an interesting idea.
Old 02-07-2010, 03:01 PM
  #4  
NJRCFLYER2
My Feedback: (42)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 878
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

All you should need to make hot standby configuration for a UBEC is a single linear regulator set to, let's say 0.1V to 0.2V lower than the UBEC. If the UBEC fails, you have an instantaneous cutover at the slightly reduced voltage level of the backup regulator. Ideally, the backup regulator should be a good one, i.e. a very low dropout design.
Old 02-07-2010, 03:08 PM
  #5  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

I've been using the two items shown below in Joey Hayes' old Integral with great success so I know that the idea works, but I'm hoping to find something even lighter than the Tech-Aero which is .6 ozs lighter than the [link=http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-21.html]MPi ACC135 regulator[/link] which is currently in the Integral . . .

. . . and kl - one of the main parts in my question was the desire to use a BEC as one of the power sources. Do you think the Hangtime's regulators can use one side or the other versus both inputs at the same time? It didn't appear to me that that was how they worked, but if I missed something it certainly wouldn't be the first time

Joe


Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Xv63577.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	10.0 KB
ID:	1373893   Click image for larger version

Name:	Gb89159.jpg
Views:	50
Size:	69.0 KB
ID:	1373894  
Old 02-07-2010, 03:15 PM
  #6  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?


ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

All you should need to make hot standby configuration for a UBEC is a single linear regulator set to, let's say 0.1V to 0.2V lower than the UBEC. If the UBEC fails, you have an instantaneous cutover at the slightly reduced voltage level of the backup regulator. Ideally, the backup regulator should be a good one, i.e. a very low dropout design.

Hi Ed,

Thanks for chiming in. What would the two outputs (UBEC/single reg) plug into? Would both plug directly into the RX?


Thanks,

Joe
Old 02-07-2010, 03:38 PM
  #7  
NJRCFLYER2
My Feedback: (42)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 878
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Would both plug directly into the RX?
Yes.
Old 02-07-2010, 03:56 PM
  #8  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?




Wow! It's that simple?!?

The regulator prevents current from the UBEC reaching the Lipo, and as long as the UBEC has a higher voltage than the regulator no current will flow from the Lipo. Is that about the gist of it?


I can't imagine why more folks aren't running this? The VHVBEC from Dimension is only 17g, and one would only need an absolute minimum sized Lipo as a backup say a 480 or even a 250. The total setup UBEC+regulator+Lipo would weigh less than 2 ozs.

I can't wait to give it a try . . . hey . . . I think I'll go downstairs and try it right now


Thanks again Ed!
Old 02-07-2010, 04:54 PM
  #9  
NJRCFLYER2
My Feedback: (42)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 878
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

The regulator prevents current from the UBEC reaching the Lipo, and as long as the UBEC has a higher voltage than the regulator no current will flow from the Lipo. Is that about the gist of it?
That's it. The only way this won't work is if it's a very cheap regulator chip being used that won't block reverse flow.
Old 02-07-2010, 06:01 PM
  #10  
klhoard
My Feedback: (10)
 
klhoard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Collierville, TN
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Joe,

Sorry, I read your original post too quickly and thought your airplane used a "real" engine. . .
.
.
ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

I've been using the two items shown below in Joey Hayes' old Integral with great success so I know that the idea works, but I'm hoping to find something even lighter than the Tech-Aero which is .6 ozs lighter than the [link=http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-21.html]MPi ACC135 regulator[/link] which is currently in the Integral . . .

. . . and kl - one of the main parts in my question was the desire to use a BEC as one of the power sources. Do you think the Hangtime's regulators can use one side or the other versus both inputs at the same time? It didn't appear to me that that was how they worked, but if I missed something it certainly wouldn't be the first time

Joe


Old 02-07-2010, 10:06 PM
  #11  
DaveL322
 
DaveL322's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Medford, NJ
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?


ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

I can't imagine why more folks aren't running this? The VHVBEC from Dimension is only 17g, and one would only need an absolute minimum sized Lipo as a backup say a 480 or even a 250. The total setup UBEC+regulator+Lipo would weigh less than 2 ozs.
Joe,

A couple comments -
1. Lipos really don't like to be stored long term at full charge....so in the application you are describing, it would be important to regularly check the back up lipo.
2. The Dimension site lists the VHVBEC for 2.5 amps and not for applications where the servos will see >80 oz/in loads. Most 10s planes/helis are going to see peak loads substantially higher than 2.5 amps and 80 oz/in. Servos like 8411, 8417, 8611A, etc can easily hit 1.5 amps each. I've got some 8717s in a 65" 3D plane that are spiking around 2.5 amps each (servos commonly used in bigger 3D helis). Dimension does note 2 VHVBECs can be used in parallel to provide additional current....or you could use a Castle BEC PRO which will handle 20 amps on 10S input.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart
Team Castle Creations
Old 02-07-2010, 10:46 PM
  #12  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Dave,

Unfortunately Castle has an enormous warning:


NOTE: CC BEC Pro should never be operated in series or parallel with another BEC or backup receiver pack connected to the RX/Servo side of the circuit.
TOP

Can you ask why this is?

Also . . . and bear in mind this is asked with all deference to your knowledge and experience, but I have tested my servos and never found more than a few mA of use at max. I generally land and find that I put 60 to 80 mAh back into my receiver packs. Are you certain that some servos hit multiple amps input in normal F3A sequence use? Also if such a limit for the BEC were hit momentarily I wonder if the Lipo would pick up the slack.


Joe
Old 02-07-2010, 11:22 PM
  #13  
Jetdesign
My Feedback: (8)
 
Jetdesign's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 7,056
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Joe,
Here is a thread about servo specs and power consumption, along with a data sheet/analysis. I think this will answer some questions about how much energy is used by a servo during a sequence:

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8189267/tm.htm]Servo Requirement Thread[/link]

[link=http://www.ofremmi.info/F3A/Technic/Flight_testing/servo_flight.htm]Analysis[/link]
Old 02-08-2010, 12:10 AM
  #14  
DaveL322
 
DaveL322's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Medford, NJ
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Joe P,

My goof....you are correct that the Castle BECs are not designed to be run in parallel, my intent was to point out that higher amp capacity high voltage BECs existed. Someone like Ed Alt or Jim Oddino could probably be more specific as to why the Castle BECs should not be run in parallel, but apparently this is a potential problem with some switching type BECs, but it is not a problem with linear type BECs (such as the ones produced by Tech Aero).

I agree that anywhere between 40 and 80 mah per flight is about right for electrics in pattern. So far as peak loads.....put an ammeter inline and lean on the servo arm....1.5 amps is easy enough to achieve, but maybe this does not happen in the air (as Ola's data indicates). I know years ago, I moved away from 100 oz/in servos on the rudder to the 8411 or 8611A because the added torque flew the plane much better (no so consistent with Ola's data) - so my presumption was the torque needed at the surface was higher than what the weaker servos were capable of providing. I'd also note that the speed of a servo is generally measured with no load (static), which has little to do with speed of the servo under load (in flight). There has been some interesting data posted on Run Ryder about this - some servos are dramatically slower under even small loads.

There are certainly a variety of ways to power the RX and servos. I'm quite happy with the parallel Tech Aero linear Vregs and dual lipos....8 flights easy for 3 oz with 100% redundancy and interchangeability (is that a word) with all the parts.....and easy to move from plane to plane in a pinch.

Regards,

Dave
Old 02-08-2010, 01:32 AM
  #15  
NJRCFLYER2
My Feedback: (42)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 878
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

It could be that the BEC circuits can't handle another voltage source that might be at a higher potential than it is running at, i.e., maybe they don't have reverse current protection. If that's the case, then don't try this. Even so, if configured with the linear regulator around 0.2V lower than the BEC, while the BEC is operating normally it would not know of the presence of the backup linear regulator. The backup contributes nothing while this condition is true. It would also draw nothing from the receiver bus while the BEC is operating normally.

Once the BEC fails or dips below a certain point, the output from the backup regulator is immediate. At that moment, if the BEC can't handle another voltage source trying to hold up the receiver bus, then something may flow in reverse to it. If that's the case, don't try this. It would be disappointing to learn that a shortcut in BEC design would preclude a common sense solution like this.
Old 02-08-2010, 02:40 PM
  #16  
OhD
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: west hills, CA
Posts: 1,160
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?


ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

All you should need to make hot standby configuration for a UBEC is a single linear regulator set to, let's say 0.1V to 0.2V lower than the UBEC. If the UBEC fails, you have an instantaneous cutover at the slightly reduced voltage level of the backup regulator. Ideally, the backup regulator should be a good one, i.e. a very low dropout design.
I totally agree. This is the way to go. To get the maximum redundancy, you want both the BEC and the regulator to plug directly into the receiver. Do not combine them in a Y harness. If you lack a spare port combine the regulator and the rudder servo with a Y harness.

Jim

Old 02-10-2010, 03:37 PM
  #17  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?


ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

. . . . if the BEC can't handle another voltage source trying to hold up the receiver bus, then something may flow in reverse to it. If that's the case, don't try this. It would be disappointing to learn that a shortcut in BEC design would preclude a common sense solution like this.




Dear Sir,

I fly 2M F3A airplanes and am interested in creating a redundant power system for the RX by paralleling a VHVBEC with a Lipo attached to a linear voltage regulator set .2V below the VHVBEC. If the BEC lost power would it be possible for current to flow through the VHVBEC?


Thanks for making such great products!

Joe Peck



From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Customer support
Date: February 9, 2010 2:59:09 PM EST
To: [email protected]

Hello Joe,

I sent a copy of your question to one of our engineers and here's what I got back,

"yes... Add a schottky diode in series with the output of the VHVBEC before
the other regulator."

Regards,

Alex



Ed or Jim,

If you're still listening in . . .

So looks like the VHVBEC does not contain a blocking diode, but I was thinking if the BEC lost power it would have to be either a failure of the BEC in which case I'm no longer concerned about hurting the BEC 'cuz its dead or a removal of 10S battery power. One could accidentally plug in the RX battery before plugging in the BEC fairly easily so I would expect that situation to arise often, but then wouldn't that mean the other end of the circuit is open, and if the circuit is open then no current can flow? I suppose I could do a $40 test and put a RX battery on the output end of the BEC and see if any magic smoke comes out , but I'm hopin' you guys can help me out here.


And, then back to the first discussion . . .


. . . so now if I put a diode in line with the BEC output won't that drop the voltage perhaps even enough to trigger the Lipo on a regulator to take over?


And Ed,

Is this a potential build project that would have any interest to you? I certainly would be happy to help finance the prototype production



Anyways, thanks for all the help as always!



Joe






[link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LX2682&P=FR]Tower Hobbies Schottky Diode[/link]


Old 02-10-2010, 10:03 PM
  #18  
NJRCFLYER2
My Feedback: (42)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 878
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Is this a potential build project that would have any interest to you?
Probably the easiest thing is if I can just get my hands on one of these speed controllers to see how the UBEC really works. Not a huge effort, but other than testing with a regulator backup, I don't really have a use for a speed controller for 2M size work. I suppose this will be a case-by-case thing, where some UBECs will prove to be suitable to use with a backup regulator, and some may have limitations in this area.
Old 02-11-2010, 07:35 AM
  #19  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

Ed,

Wow . . . now don't I feel silly. I just realized you are Tech-Aero. Somehow I was under the impression that Ed Alt regulators were separate from Tech-Aero. Anyways now I get it.

But I wanted to clarify something . . .


The only component I'm really talking about here is the VHVBEC. I use a standard Jeti speed controller with no BEC. Normally I plug the VHVBEC directly into the RX battery port on one side and a 10S battery tap on the other side. This VHVBEC does not need to be connected to the speed controller other than the 10S tap. Forgive me if I am stating the obvious; I just wasn't certain from your last comment if I had been clear in how I was proposing to use this setup. So my dilemma is finding an independent UBEC that has a reverse flow blocking feature built in, and I would be happy to send you one these VHVBECs for dissection if that is of interest.


In either case thanks for the help, and look for my order later today



Joe





Old 02-11-2010, 11:42 AM
  #20  
OhD
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: west hills, CA
Posts: 1,160
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?


ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

Ed,

Wow . . . now don't I feel silly. I just realized you are Tech-Aero. Somehow I was under the impression that Ed Alt regulators were separate from Tech-Aero. Anyways now I get it.

But I wanted to clarify something . . .


The only component I'm really talking about here is the VHVBEC. I use a standard Jeti speed controller with no BEC. Normally I plug the VHVBEC directly into the RX battery port on one side and a 10S battery tap on the other side. This VHVBEC does not need to be connected to the speed controller other than the 10S tap. Forgive me if I am stating the obvious; I just wasn't certain from your last comment if I had been clear in how I was proposing to use this setup. So my dilemma is finding an independent UBEC that has a reverse flow blocking feature built in, and I would be happy to send you one these VHVBECs for dissection if that is of interest.


In either case thanks for the help, and look for my order later today



Joe





Why don't you try it yourself? Or contact the guys that made the BEC? Chances are you won't hurt it.

Jim
Old 02-11-2010, 03:46 PM
  #21  
OhD
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: west hills, CA
Posts: 1,160
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

I should have read this thread from the beginning. I looked up the specs on the VHVBEC and see it is designed for only 2.5 Amps. I don't believe that is adequate. Each servo will draw that much for a short time when starting or stopping and if you get five starting at once (in a snap) you won't get the desired torque unless the LiPo supplies the current.

They discuss parallel operation to overcome this short coming. so it should work from that standpoint. I was thinking it might be nice to add so I wouldn't have to charge my battery pack after each session. But it sounds like the LiPo would be supplying a lot of the current.

What they should and could build is a VHVBCC. The same device with an 8.4 volt regulated output could keep your 2 cell LiPo charged all the time.

Jim
Old 02-11-2010, 04:46 PM
  #22  
OhD
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: west hills, CA
Posts: 1,160
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

How about this one?

-http://www.hobbypartz.com/ubhvoulbe.html
Old 02-11-2010, 04:59 PM
  #23  
2Sunny
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: pound ridge, NY
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

On principle I wholly agree that what I am doing to this poor little VHVBEC is pushing the limits and one would be better off putting 2 in parallel as suggested by the manufacturer. However, having said that I will add a couple quick points:

1) I flew several dozens flights of Intermediate Sequence with only the VHVBEC attached in November with no noticeable problems.
2) The graph below taken from the servo test report listed above by gaRCfield shows peaks of less than 1 amp for a P09 sequence.
3) Even if the VHVBEC couldn't supply the current needed for a moment I wonder if the regulated Lipo would simply pick up the slack for that brief second.
4) Paralleling 2 VHVBEC's really wouldn't be too horrible of a solution since they only weigh 17 g anyway.

Of course I am NOT suggesting others should duplicate my foolishness (at least not until I've demonstrated its efficacy and safety), but rather just "thinking out loud" as I experiment with this stuff.



and, I'm planning on testing the VHVBEC tonight by putting the regulated Lipo power to the output side. I figure it's all in the name of science and fun so "what the heck"



Anyways, thats it for now and thanks for all the great input, Jim! Keeps me thinking about what to work on next!



Joe




Old 02-11-2010, 10:25 PM
  #24  
NJRCFLYER2
My Feedback: (42)
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 878
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

I looked up the specs on the VHVBEC and see it is designed for only 2.5 Amps. I don't believe that is adequate.
Agree!

I think there is another solution...
Old 02-12-2010, 08:38 AM
  #25  
AmericanSpectre505
 
AmericanSpectre505's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Redundant RX pwr. UBEC + Lipo. Only Tech-Aero?

I am running a Tech-Aero dual regulated system in both my BM-VF3's, one on a YS set-up and one EP (Pletty 30-10 EVO, Jetti 90 on 72 MHz). One of the smartest things I've added to my ships. I flew 40% IMAC planes for years and always used dual regulated set ups. I did'nt think it was all that important with the much smaller pattern ships (smaller less current bigger RX pack I'd be just fine), I was wrong! I had an older regulator that failed while sitting on the runway ready to take off, the plane went to idle with the fail safe, could have been a disaster.

Last year, I had a brand new 750 Lipo go bad in flight, but I was running 2 of them with the Tech-Aero dual regulator system,...If I had not been in the habbit of checking my batteries before each flight I would not have cought the problem,....Thanks ED for a great product and a GREAT piece of mind, other possible disaster avoided.

My two cents anyway,...That was a wake up call, that I was being to lax in day to to flight preparations. Not really relative to the Castle discussion. I just wanted to share that with you guys.


bholsten

Custom Airframes of America, Team Black Magic, Advantage Hobby, Guardian America, Dist. 2 FAI Champion 2009.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.