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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/10/2010 11:34 PM   
fockewulf37


 

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Status: offline 		TBM must not be looking at the Manual If you look at the ESM website and the Manual that came with the plane it was designed around a 180 four stroke motor. There is a huge difference in the power and torque of the 2 motors. Big difference in the vibration. I am just saying so far any flutter has happened in an over powered plane.
Just my opinion....

Ty

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 2:07 AM   
alanc


 

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Status: offline 		we have flown them all over here,  all the models have been as per kit,  all power plants have been inside  FACTORY recomendations,  all aircraft have performed well,     i certainly have not had bother with my 109, spitfire, corsair, stuka, and P47,  the team models get hammered at shows,  if we where getting flutter, it would be fed right back to the factory, and action would be taken,   if you are going to go to big motors, beef up where needed,          if you have a car with a V6 and fit a V12,  you would expect it to suffer accordingly,

the swordfish mentioned was balanced BEHIND  the recomended point,     this is documented in the thread,    ours was balanced at the recomended point, and flew well,    

any problems, please contact your dealer, or importer,       i come on here to try to assist,  i wont get involved in a bun fight with a market that is nothing to do with us,   so be NICE



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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 3:55 AM   
Whistling Death



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quote:

ORIGINAL: builttocrash

You do know that Troybuiltmodels is recommending the DLE55 for the T-28. I really don't see how the over powered motor would cause flutter, unless of course your flying Mach1.


They are also recommending a 50cc for the Ju-87 Stuka which is a joke. There is over powering and then there is grossly over powering. A 50cc engine in that Stuka is grossly over powered.


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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 5:18 AM   
Thunderbolt47



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whistling Death


quote:

ORIGINAL: builttocrash

You do know that Troybuiltmodels is recommending the DLE55 for the T-28. I really don't see how the over powered motor would cause flutter, unless of course your flying Mach1.


They are also recommending a 50cc for the Ju-87 Stuka which is a joke. There is over powering and then there is grossly over powering. A 50cc engine in that Stuka is grossly over powered.



Remmember, These TBM guys like to hover warbirds

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 6:14 AM   
builttocrash


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks alanc, but here is the problem. I have no idea what a BUN fight is. LOL! :-)

But seriously,how does overpowering a plane cause an elevator to flutter. I can understand motor vibration from a larger engine, but how does that translate to a fluttering elevator? Does it shake the tail so violently that it weakens? I'm just not following this point of thought. I am open to learning, but people have to give an explanation other than the typical, "because I say".


quote:

ORIGINAL: alanc

we have flown them all over here,  all the models have been as per kit,  all power plants have been inside  FACTORY recomendations,  all aircraft have performed well,     i certainly have not had bother with my 109, spitfire, corsair, stuka, and P47,  the team models get hammered at shows,  if we where getting flutter, it would be fed right back to the factory, and action would be taken,   if you are going to go to big motors, beef up where needed,          if you have a car with a V6 and fit a V12,  you would expect it to suffer accordingly,

the swordfish mentioned was balanced BEHIND  the recomended point,     this is documented in the thread,    ours was balanced at the recomended point, and flew well,    

any problems, please contact your dealer, or importer,       i come on here to try to assist,  i wont get involved in a bun fight with a market that is nothing to do with us,   so be NICE





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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 11:57 AM   
kinverflyer


 

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 4:00 PM  1 votes
realdeal



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Status: offline 		Alan - You are one of the guys I had in mind that ESM should be utilizing. Even if it meant paying you specifically for consulting or giving you a better break on your purchases they really need to improve their product with the help of someone outside of China. Their planes make for really pretty pictures but compared to other manufacturers they are getting left behind. I say this as a hobbyist and as a former ESM (via KMP) dealer. I probably had 40 or 50 of their kits through my store. The amount of work left to the modeler that could/should be done by the factory is too high. I'd be happy to discuss this in detail through PM if you are interested.

I don't mean to put you on the spot but I would like to know how ESM did their testing and pre-production development on the T-28. You are probably the biggest voice ESM has on this forum. I have the following questions/comments:

1) Were you and/or other distributors sent a kit to review and comment prior to ESM commencing full production on the T28?
2) Did ESM fly the T28 prior to commencing full production? I see no comments on flying characteristics in the manual.
3) If it was flown how was the airplane stressed and tested? What procedures do they use to flush out potential problems in flight? I know Hangar 9 has a requirement for their aircraft to withstand a full-throttle dive then full-elevator pull with the largest recommended engine. If it flutters or breaks it gets redesigned.
4) Were any flights captured on video and made available to potential purchasers? - I've not seen it and I've been looking. I searched Youtube and the only ESM T28 videos I've seen are cockpit installation videos and TBMs walkaround.
5) Does ESM have a flying T28 at the moment?
6) Does YT or any other distributor have a flying T28 at the moment?

I will restate that I think ESM has the potential to be a great manufacturer but they need to start thinking differently. They need more attention to detail. Pretty pictures may sell a FEW airplanes but making it easier to build and fly successfully will get you repeat customers. Getting guys to buy again and again is the real achievement. That was the problem with ESM / KMP in my store. Once the local customers purchased a few and started talking about them my sales went way down.

Keith

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 4:42 PM   
Blancr


 

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Status: offline 		Great post Realdeal

I think this is the right way to engage the issues. The Chinese do not respond well to histrionics. Let's hope that they respond better to reasoned argument. Think it will take some persistence though

Bob

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 9:14 PM   
alanc


 

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Status: offline 		All kits are test flown at the factory,     the construction has been refined over the years,   we know,  we refined it, from the early days of the bland sea fury with the 1 piece flap, to the hurricane, our first  result from a direct liason with the company,   these days, with the construction being a standard, its only a change of shape,      i dispute the hangar 9 test flying,     to dive anything at full bore, and give full up,  is asking for trouble, and is not a way to test fly anything,   if anyone tested MY model like that, an argument would ensue!!!

          we have had no complaints over here, about any of the kitsleast ways, i havnt,     the T28 first order is due in,   we have not recieved them yet,    but, i expect no problems,

i noticed in a post further up,  that the instruction to mount the elevator as close in as possible, has been taken as the factory knew "something was up" surely,     this way of mounting the elevators is pretty well the way it SHOULD be done,  on ANY aircraft??    

i cannot comment on TBMs engine recomendation,    its not my place,    there is plenty of info on our site, or ESMs,  

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/11/2010 10:46 PM   
builttocrash


 

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Status: offline 		May I ask what your website is? I'd love to visit it to get some info from ya. :-)

Jon


quote:

ORIGINAL: alanc

All kits are test flown at the factory,     the construction has been refined over the years,   we know,  we refined it, from the early days of the bland sea fury with the 1 piece flap, to the hurricane, our first  result from a direct liason with the company,   these days, with the construction being a standard, its only a change of shape,      i dispute the hangar 9 test flying,     to dive anything at full bore, and give full up,  is asking for trouble, and is not a way to test fly anything,   if anyone tested MY model like that, an argument would ensue!!!

          we have had no complaints over here, about any of the kitsleast ways, i havnt,     the T28 first order is due in,   we have not recieved them yet,    but, i expect no problems,

i noticed in a post further up,  that the instruction to mount the elevator as close in as possible, has been taken as the factory knew "something was up" surely,     this way of mounting the elevators is pretty well the way it SHOULD be done,  on ANY aircraft??    

i cannot comment on TBMs engine recomendation,    its not my place,    there is plenty of info on our site, or ESMs,  



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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 12:33 AM   
pimodel


 

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Status: offline 		A little  "HELLO "  from FRANCE 

    http://www.ytinternational.co.uk/warbird.htm

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 3:22 AM   
fw190



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quote:

ORIGINAL: builttocrash

Thanks alanc, but here is the problem. I have no idea what a BUN fight is. LOL! :-)

But seriously,how does overpowering a plane cause an elevator to flutter. I can understand motor vibration from a larger engine, but how does that translate to a fluttering elevator? Does it shake the tail so violently that it weakens? I'm just not following this point of thought. I am open to learning, but people have to give an explanation other than the typical, ''because I say''.



Lets see, try flying a Cessna at 400 mph but it cant normally because engine is too small, okay put a Merlin motor on it and try flying it at 400mph... I hope you see the point.

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 12:22 PM   
myersflyers


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fw190


quote:

ORIGINAL: builttocrash

Thanks alanc, but here is the problem. I have no idea what a BUN fight is. LOL! :-)

But seriously,how does overpowering a plane cause an elevator to flutter. I can understand motor vibration from a larger engine, but how does that translate to a fluttering elevator? Does it shake the tail so violently that it weakens? I'm just not following this point of thought. I am open to learning, but people have to give an explanation other than the typical, ''because I say''.



Lets see, try flying a Cessna at 400 mph but it cant normally because engine is too small, okay put a Merlin motor on it and try flying it at 400mph... I hope you see the point.



One of the reasons the full flying stab came about was due to flutter in jets with elevators when going to mach speeds.
Flutter in models is usually due to size, trailing edge design(thin vs. thick, round vs. squared) gap size between stab and elevator and finally and most important, lack of good strong servos and stiff solid linkages

< Message edited by myersflyers -- 6/12/2010 1:41 PM >

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 3:17 PM   
builttocrash


 

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Status: offline 		I just got done replacing the pull pull wires to pull pull rods with clevis. This should be enough right? The servos are HD1501 ran on 6v.
quote:

ORIGINAL: myersflyers

quote:

ORIGINAL: fw190


quote:

ORIGINAL: builttocrash

Thanks alanc, but here is the problem. I have no idea what a BUN fight is. LOL! :-)

But seriously,how does overpowering a plane cause an elevator to flutter. I can understand motor vibration from a larger engine, but how does that translate to a fluttering elevator? Does it shake the tail so violently that it weakens? I'm just not following this point of thought. I am open to learning, but people have to give an explanation other than the typical, ''because I say''.



Lets see, try flying a Cessna at 400 mph but it cant normally because engine is too small, okay put a Merlin motor on it and try flying it at 400mph... I hope you see the point.



One of the reasons the full flying stab came about was due to flutter in jets with elevators when going to mach speeds.
Flutter in models is usually due to size, trailing edge design(thin vs. thick, round vs. squared) gap size between stab and elevator and finally and most important, lack of good strong servos and stiff solid linkages



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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 6:03 PM   
DJ


 

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Status: offline 		GUys
On my PC-21 I had the same problem with flutter. I tried larger servo's, bigger rods, sealing the gaps. Nothing seem to help. I had then found that the rods going into the balsa in the elevators were enlarging the holes, and that the rods were actually soft and flexing. I had to finally place two servos in the fuselage and epoxy two control horns, from the Jet side of the hobby, into each elevator half. Now I have solid control with no mussy feeling on the stick. I know it's not scale but if your flying these just for fun and the cool factor it;s the only way to go with these models. I haven't gotten mine yet, I'm waiting for the White and Orange. I'm going to try the Saito FG-30 for power, and maybe a solo prop.
DJ

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 7:56 PM   
pimodel


 

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Status: offline 		Hello  , to day ,saturday   i am looking at the "problem " of  flutter on this Forum , and after few minute   i  measure with caliper  the diameter of  stab joiner  12 mm and the hole in the two stabiliser  12mm  OK . But in a second time  i measure the hole on each side of fuse  13mm   ""Horror "" for me  . For me  1 mm is very important clearance between the fuse and the tube and it is not good   I think i am going toglue in the fuse a little piece of Epoxy tube with internal diameter 12mm and external diam  13mm (if i find ) or 14 mm with enlarging the hole of fuse .
   I  know , itis very difficult to glue this tube and put a little of glass fiber all around but i think that itis not the job of two dowel  pin to hold the stab . THEIR job is only the correct incidence .and it is (perhaps a reason of  flutter

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 8:20 PM   
tailskid



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Status: offline 		Good catch pimodel ! That could explain a lot.

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 8:37 PM   
pimodel


 

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Status: offline 		A lot   a lot  i don t un derstand that  not other  modeller on this forum don t speak of this problem. Very curious..

one thing is  sure   ...this Esm T28 Kit is not made for beginner , i think

the hinge on the wings are not in line , idem on stabiliser

 the liner of the  retract gear is problem

the complete wing with 4 servos + retract +weels+undercarriage =  2850 grs  (very heavy)  i am a little  afraid ........  for  AUGUST

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/12/2010 11:45 PM   
realdeal



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Status: offline 		So it looks like the answers to my questions are:

1) ESM did NOT send any kits to distributors for evaluation. Any testing prior to production was done in house.
2) ESM DID test fly the airplane prior to production. No information gained from that testing was passed on to the customers or distributors.
3) See answer #2. No information on their testing procedures is available.
4) No flight video was made available by ESM prior to production.
5) ESM does have a flying T-28.
6) YT does not have a flying T-28.

Please correct any innaccuracies.

I see we also have a report of flutter from yet another design. I believe that pretty much covers the whole "26cc" series (LA7, PC21, T-28). It will be easy to blame this on customers overpowering their planes. That may or may not be accurate. It is proper for a company to consider not only the design intent but their customers actual usage history when designing their products. Perhaps ESM should offer high-performance versions of their kits with additional strengthening for a little higher price. If they were to do that I would make a pretty good wager that the performance version would sell better. This is especially true if it were backed up by documented testing results and video demonstrations.

As for my T-28 I've begun the modifications. I cut a hatch beneath the stab for access. I've added some gorilla glue around the tubes and dowels from the inside to add a little strength to that area. I'm going to add some wood stringers from the rearmost former to the tail former to resist twisting. The thin fiberglass at the rear of the plane may contribute to the flutter but I believe the elevator mechanism is the weakest link in the design. As DJ mentioned the balsa is soft in the area where the rods must be drilled into the elevator. This creates a lot of flex in this area. It doesn't matter how tight you get the pull-pull wire you will not eliminate that without going to a control horn directly on the elevator. I intend to do that and use a carbon pushrod with a Y at the end coming out of a slot beneath the horizontal stab. The pull-pull will be eliminated. I'll be leaving the rod connecting the two halves in place for additional strength.

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/13/2010 12:11 AM   
swiss_turtle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pimodel

Hello  , to day ,saturday   i am looking at the "problem " of  flutter on this Forum , and after few minute   i  measure with caliper  the diameter of  stab joiner  12 mm and the hole in the two stabiliser  12mm  OK . But in a second time  i measure the hole on each side of fuse  13mm   ""Horror "" for me  . For me  1 mm is very important clearance between the fuse and the tube and it is not good   I think i am going toglue in the fuse a little piece of Epoxy tube with internal diameter 12mm and external diam  13mm (if i find ) or 14 mm with enlarging the hole of fuse .
   I  know , itis very difficult to glue this tube and put a little of glass fiber all around but i think that itis not the job of two dowel  pin to hold the stab . THEIR job is only the correct incidence .and it is (perhaps a reason of  flutter


I have also a T-28 (far away to be finished, because I have a newborn baby) and I can confirm the gab between the fuselage and stab joiner. For my, it's a second point... the fuselage thickness, the this hole area is about 1mm and it's no wood to reinforce this area.



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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/14/2010 6:23 AM   
carlosemiliov



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Status: offline 		hey guys has anybody fly there t-28? i am having problem with the recomended c of g

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/14/2010 8:29 AM   
builttocrash


 

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Status: offline 		Didn't you fly yours already? I thought you said that your maiden was a HUGE success. Now, your having problems with your COG? Whats going on Carlos?
quote:

ORIGINAL: carlosemiliov

hey guys has anybody fly there t-28? i am having problem with the recomended c of g



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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/14/2010 9:15 AM   
carlosemiliov



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Status: offline 		yes we flew it but the elevator when its at neutral its almost one inch down from neutral position from the horizontal stabs

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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/14/2010 4:03 PM   
builttocrash


 

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Status: offline 		Dang carlos! Thats your problem. That probably was your cause for the "flutter". If the planes tail was moving up and down and you had to induce one inch of travel downward just to get the plane to fly properly, then it definitely is your COG.
quote:

ORIGINAL: carlosemiliov

yes we flew it but the elevator when its at neutral its almost one inch down from neutral position from the horizontal stabs



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RE: ESM T-28 - 6/14/2010 6:17 PM   
carlosemiliov



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Status: offline 		yesturday we stared to take off some tail weight because of these issue, because the cg that the manual stablished is not working right

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