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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/8/2012 9:33 PM   
rxwarrior


 

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Status: offline 		Thank you w8ye

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/12/2012 1:05 PM   
rxwarrior


 

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Status: offline 		Unless Im doing something wrong there are no screw holes that lin up with the hall sencer slots at 28 degrees. Im timeing it inverted acording to the vidio.

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/12/2012 1:45 PM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		That is correct.

The original sensor was timed at zero degrees

You will need the RCEXL long universal timing bracket. But it comes with a new sensor http://www.rcextremepower.net/ignitions.html  $7.95

Or else, mount the rcexl sensor on the casting seam  and re-time the hub with a new locating pin hole.


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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/12/2012 9:01 PM   
rxwarrior


 

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Thank you w8ye I ordered one.



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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/12/2012 10:59 PM  1 votes
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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/12/2012 11:27 PM   
rxwarrior


 

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/25/2012 6:09 PM   
captain2


 

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Status: offline 		a resolution to my problems turned out to be shipping my FG-14 back to Saito where they went thru the engine with a fine tooth comb before they replaced the carb (4th one) before it would run right. Saito should be commended for their service and commitment - they did this on their dime even though they really didn't have to. So am now a happier camper with my FG14 now back to properly turning a 14x6 right at 9k, 1+ turns out, easy starting and decent transitions. Can only hope its behavior lasts - a good choice for a GP UCanDo 46 - 30 minutes on 8oz of fuel, anyone?

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/25/2012 10:58 PM   
washfire


 

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Status: offline 		I've had good luck with mine in a showtime 50..... However have needed to replace the spark plug twice.... Not sure why, they looked great. Engine would start and run at idle nut stumble and die on any increase in throttle... Once I installed a new plug it will run great... At $22 each i hope this one lasts.. (the last plug didn't last one gallon)

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/29/2012 6:53 PM   
captain2


 

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Status: offline 		did have the plug electrode literally burn off on a Saito branded plug, replaced with a RC-EXL 1/4-32 plug which was OK - but still couldn't get it to run right at which point I sent it back to Saito. According to the note I got back from Horizon, they went thru the entire engine - but they didn't get it to run right until they replaced the carb - which is where I thought the problems have been. They did all this gratis - an indication to me that Saito is quite committed to the success of its new line of gassers.
The carb remains very touchy on the high end, just a tad over a full turn out to get about 9000 rpm with an Evo 14x6 prop, starting and idle (~2000) have never been an issue , coughing/sputtering on transition and sometimes quitting has - until they switched the carb. I'm just hoping that its current good behavior continues.
For whatever the reason, the FG14 does better with the 14x6, than the FA82 does on the same plane - and the fuel costs aren't even close. A full morning of flying for me is typically four 10 minute flights - something that requires only about 12 oz of gas ($.50 worth) versus 32 oz of glow ($7.00).

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/30/2012 4:12 AM   
MercerAUST


 

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Status: offline 		It is an economical engine isn't it. The actual fuel consumption is probably half that of the FA82 (which in turn is maybe two thirds that of an equivalent nitro 2-stroke). Plus gas is about 10% the cost of typical nitro fuel.

If you work out the fuel costs versus the higher capital cost of a 4-stroke gas engine and equivalent 2-stroke nitro, you will be ahead on the fuel costs after about 40 hours operation.

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 5/30/2012 6:27 PM   
captain2


 

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Status: offline 		this from OS:

http://osengines.com/faq/faq-q900.html

as you can a 14cc gas 4 stroke projects to ~ .25 oz/minute, the .82 4 stroke glow at something approaching 1.25 oz per minute, actually a factor a 5! I can get 10 minute flights on 270 cc [~9 oz] with my FA82, but not at full throttle. There is a whole lot less gas in the FG14 at any given time than glow in the FA82, making,I suppose, the carburetor an even more critical metering device than it would normally be. My experiences with the Saito gas carb seem to bear this out. As you suggest, the glow is 4 or 5 times more $ what a gallon of gas/oil costs - giving us conservatively an overall difference of about 20 [5*4). If you spend any time at all 'on the sticks' it becomes easy to justify the engine cost premium.

Saito, I'm sure, is doing what they can to produce agreeable gas carbs but its got to be a difficult challenge. I also run a DLE20 (17x6 Vess) and a NGH GT17 (15x8 MAS), both 2 stroke,of course, and both easy to get along with albeit with more conventional Walbro type carbs. They too will fly seemingly forever but with the 400cc+ tanks behind them. A bit off topic here - but you have to wonder what will ultimetely happen with glow engines?


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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/1/2012 4:40 AM   
MercerAUST


 

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Status: offline 		I think Saito is quickly moving to offer a gas 4-stroke for all their nitro 4-strokes to try and build their market share before the Chinese inevitably move into gas 4-strokes. They only have another few years before the Chinese have the metallurgy and tooling to start churning out cheap and reliable small 4-stroke gas engines. I imagine Saito will have to reduce their prices by one third or more to even be in the ballpark. However, if they can build market share, and capitalise on their tooling, they may be able to stay competitive.

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/1/2012 6:02 PM   
captain2


 

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Status: offline 		agreed, David Chow [NGH] a good example of where we are heading - small 2 stroke gassers all the way down to 9cc [.53ci] with prices hundreds less than typical OS/Saito numbers. David delayed his NGH 9 though because I think he had problems getting the carb to work reliably. The 4 stroke Chinese mfgrs are already there [Magnum/ASP etc], can't imagine that it'll be too long before 'copies' are tried on Saito's design or for that matter a smaller Walbro type carb design is modified for 4 stroke use.

Saito and OS will always have, in my mind, a quality and customer support advantage - folks will, of course, buy a Saito or OS simply because who makes them. it's really hard to argue with the results I get from my DLE20 or my NGH 17 for about half the $ of my 14cc Saito. And you can see this at my Club field - the small DLEs 20 and 30s, now engines of choice pretty much across the board, supplanting those 90 and larger 4 stroke glows. OS is jumping on the gas 2 stroke bandwagon, Saito, of course, pretty much converting everything they make and although those brands have commanded a few more $ over the years - it certainly seems logical that they will have to deal with the Chinese - on a basis that the Chinese understand - price.

Will say one thing about the Saito carb, though - it does eliminate that common objection that comes with the gas 2 strokes - uneven throttle response and that unheathy sounding half throttle 'gurgle'. When they are running right, the Saito gassers have a great sound and a nice almost linear throttle response

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/11/2012 3:12 AM   
fred45ty


 

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Status: offline 		I have an FG-14B and it's the best motor I've ever had.

However, recently the motor stopped in mid-air, the first time this has ever happened. It stopped right after the plane had nose-dived and I had evened it out again. On the ground, I tried to replicate that and found that the motor would reliably quit whenever the nose was brought down for several seconds. I'm not sure if this is a new problem or if I just never realized it until now. At any rate, I found that I was able to correct the problem if I leaned out the low-speed needle enough, but that having made that change, the motor would stutter and quit on advancing the throttle from idle (in normal horizontal plane position).  This stutter/quit problem could be solved by reversing the change to the low-speed needle I had made; i.e., by richening the low-speed needle but then, of course, the problem of quitting when the nose was down would recur. If this all is a new problem, then it may be relevant that it all came to light only after a bad crash I had about a month ago. 

It seems like the problem is that the motor is getting too much fuel when I point the nose down. All I can think of to alter that is leaning the low-speed needle. But doing that causes the other problem, as I mentioned above that the engine will then stutter/stop during a normal advance of the throttle from idle.

Not sure if it's relevant, but during all this I have peaked the high speed needle several times, as well as occasionally richening it just in case that would help. I have also back washed the carb fuel line filter and the clunk. Also, I have verified that air is not the reason for the problem  the problem occurs whether any air is visible coming down the fuel line or not, and conversely, air bubbles that do come down the fuel line don't seem to cause any problems.

I thought I'd ask here for any ideas before sending it to Saito. 

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/11/2012 3:42 PM  1 votes
Pete Bergstrom


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fred45ty

I have an FG-14B and it's the best motor I've ever had.

However, recently the motor stopped in mid-air, the first time this has ever happened. It stopped right after the plane had nose-dived and I had evened it out again. On the ground, I tried to replicate that and found that the motor would reliably quit whenever the nose was brought down for several seconds. I'm not sure if this is a new problem or if I just never realized it until now. At any rate, I found that I was able to correct the problem if I leaned out the low-speed needle enough, but that having made that change, the motor would stutter and quit on advancing the throttle from idle (in normal horizontal plane position).  This stutter/quit problem could be solved by reversing the change to the low-speed needle I had made; i.e., by richening the low-speed needle but then, of course, the problem of quitting when the nose was down would recur. If this all is a new problem, then it may be relevant that it all came to light only after a bad crash I had about a month ago. 

It seems like the problem is that the motor is getting too much fuel when I point the nose down. All I can think of to alter that is leaning the low-speed needle. But doing that causes the other problem, as I mentioned above that the engine will then stutter/stop during a normal advance of the throttle from idle.

Not sure if it's relevant, but during all this I have peaked the high speed needle several times, as well as occasionally richening it just in case that would help. I have also back washed the carb fuel line filter and the clunk. Also, I have verified that air is not the reason for the problem  the problem occurs whether any air is visible coming down the fuel line or not, and conversely, air bubbles that do come down the fuel line don't seem to cause any problems.

I thought I'd ask here for any ideas before sending it to Saito. 


Fred - Good Morning.  I doubt that the crash has anything to do with your problem other than I am assuming you have installed the engine into a different airplane with a slightly different fuel system.  Here is my advice:

1.  Low speed needle tuning.  When you are this close to perfect running engine only make very minute needle valve changes to the low speed idle at any one time.  I say this because it is common for me to see even experienced modelers make a quarter turn change at a time and this is way too much.  When I say very minute I am speaking of less than a 1/16 turn change at a time.
2.  I am also assuming that your 'nose down position' also equates to a low throttle position. The amount of air allowed in at idle (i.e. throttle barrel opening) is another variable that can help solve this problem.  Try raising your low throttle trim position a couple of clicks and see if this helps.

I would also suggest that everyone use one of the felt covered clunks when operating any of the smaller gasoline engines.  This will take care of the air bubbles in the fuel line that you are seeing.  In all my experience and testing it has become apparent to me that air bubbles that would successfully go through a glow fuel system will cause all kinds of headaches in a gas system.  My understanding is that we are using approximately 1/3 the fuel with gasoline that we used to use with glow but the air bubbles in the system are the same size - effectively making the air bubbles three times larger as seen by the gas system versus a glow system.  It really pays off to eliminate these bubbles.  The part numbers for the felt clunks are:

ZEN550085400  Fuel Tank Filter

I'd like to hear about your results.

Pete




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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/11/2012 6:51 PM   
captain2


 

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Status: offline 		Ditto on what Pete is telling you. Carb is VERY touchy both needles, often only a click or two either way. Fly mine with a MAS 14x6 and will use a tach for tuning. A little rich on both will yield 2000-2100 rpm idle and 8800-8900 top end. The engine behaves better when warmed up and it is difficult to tune by ear - like most 4 strokes. It is possible to see 9200 rpm out of this combination but have found that the slightly leaner high setting has adverse effects on engine behavior - so what I do on the high needle is set it at 9k and back it off very slightly to 8800 rpm or so Low needle I also adjust to engine speed AND transition. All this said, however, don't be afraid to send the engine back to Saito - they did a good job for me and seem to be genuinely committed to this engine's success.
My biggest problem now is fuel related. I use an 8oz tank - which can give me up to 30 minutes in the air - but can't get the tank clunk to move within the small tank freely, Tygon and black neoprene clunk lines are both too stiff in such a short length - so I end up with fuel starvation issues esp during aerobatic stuff as the tank empties. . Anybody out there got a suggestion?

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/11/2012 7:14 PM   
fred45ty


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks both of you for your advice.

After the crash, I just repaired the plane, didn't transfer the motor to a new plane.

Yes, I was definitely adjusting the low speed needle by too large intervals, sometimes 1/8 turn, sometimes 1/4 turn. So I'm excited to try that adjustment again but with smaller increments.

I've been using a 13x8 prop and used to get top RPM of 9400 although it's been 8400 lately.  I've never tried measuring the RPM at idle speed.  Should I go for something like 2500? Basically I've just tried to ensure it's a speed that the engine won't quit and that I have good transition from low to high.

My tank is a big one, something like 24 oz. I have noticed the same problem as you, captain2, that the clunk line is somewhat inflexible.

Yes, the nose-down quits I was referring to were at idle setting. Although a few times I tried it at a somewhat higher throttle setting and still noticed a significant slow-down and near-quit. It can probably be solved by adjusting up the throttle idle setting, but then the plane would not sit still on the runway at idle, which is inconvenient.

I'll post what I run into once I can get home and try adjusting the low speed needle again.

Fred

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/11/2012 7:32 PM   
Pete Bergstrom


 

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Status: offline 		Fred & Captain2,

Using the felt clunk I referred to will certainly help with the fuel problem from the tank.  It is quite a bit heavier than a standard clunk.  I have also been using Viton tubing (its also black but much better than neoprene) and is available from Saito with this part number:

SAIG36155       Fuel Tubing,Gas,Durable:AK,AT

I have been using this setup in an 8 oz standard Dubro tank and I drain almost the last drop out of the tank.

I think we are out of this particular tubing now but I'm working to have a larger source for this in the future.

Pete

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/11/2012 7:56 PM   
captain2


 

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Status: offline 		Wow - a 24 oz tank on a FG14 - talk about overkill - even at full throttle you figure to be staying up over an hour! Fly all month on a single tank perhaps? Well beyond my attention span
Must be a big plane for a tank that size - my UCanDo 46 comes with a 9 oz tank that I replace with a Dubro 8 and even that is much more fuel than the Saito needs.

The tygon/neoprene lines get significantly stiffer with age - will start looking for the Viton stuff that Pete recommends, I run several small gassers and have this problem with all of them. the FG14 just happens to have the smallest tank.

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/11/2012 8:15 PM   
fred45ty


 

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Status: offline 		The heavy, felt clunk sounds great. I just ordered one!

Also, I think I can handle increasing the throttle trim to idle at a higher setting, if only by doing it just before take off. If I can use that to partly solve the problem, it would make adjustment of the low-speed needle a lot less difficult.

Yes, the flight time is long with that tank.

thanks,

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/12/2012 4:19 AM   
MercerAUST


 

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Status: offline 		I second using a felt clunk. I use the smallest Walbro size (from any small engine shop) with the black viton tubing (you can normally buy packaged short lengths at RC hobby shops). As Pete says, the clunk is pretty heavy and will fit into even a small tank. As long as any part of the felt is touching the fuel, it will suck it down to the last drop (eg the clunk doesn't need to be fully immersed and should be OK even if it is not bottomed asthe fuel sloshes around).


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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/12/2012 1:00 PM   
rxwarrior


 

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Status: offline 		Can you fuel and defuel through a felt clunk or do you have to have a third line.

Thanks Rick

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/12/2012 1:01 PM   
Pete Bergstrom


 

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Status: offline 		 Yes. No problem. 

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/12/2012 6:33 PM   
captain2


 

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Status: offline 		also just ordered 6. Tore apart a 400cc tank that I was running a 17cc gasser through and the neoprene lines might as well have been #10 bolts - they were that stiff. I had been using the neoprene because at least initially it was more flexible - but leave the stuff in a gas fuel tank and it gets so stiff that it is useless for clunk movement. Tygon, depending on size, is better about maintaining some flexibility - haven't been able to find Viton yet - nobody around this City of several million I live in, has heard of it.
The short tube length in my smaller tanks [8 oz] does aggravate the whole clunk problem.

On a more pleasant note, flew my UCD/FG14 this AM, the weather had changed just a bit [less humidity] and the engine had to be richened [hs] a coupla clicks from yesterday's setting, but otherwise ran great

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RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!! - 6/13/2012 2:49 PM   
fred45ty


 

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Status: offline 		I tried to adjust my motor and ended up thinking this is really a complex problem.

I really don't know if the problem I mentioned earlier is a new one or just newly discovered; that is, the motor stopping when nose down for more than a few seconds. In trying to fix this problem, which would only rarely occur in the air, it seems like I have to ensure the idle is a high-RPM idle, whether I do that by leaning out the low-speed needle or by trimming up the throttle, or both. And yet those changes, I suspect, will cost me in terms of fuel economy/flight duration. Because if I might have flown the plane at or near idle for significant amounts of time before, now with this change the idle is using more gas. So it may not be worth it.

The idle RPM that seems necessary to prevent the nose-down quit is about 4000 rpm. This is almost half of my max rpm (8500).

In addition, when I achieve that idle mainly by leaning the low speed, it results in the motor occasionally quitting just sitting there on the bench level at this idle, which it never did before.

Also, that idle is too high for the plane to sit still on the runway. It needs an idle of less than 3650 to stand still.

As a separate issue, I have also noticed that air comes into the line not really during but just after the plane has been nose down for a while (and has now been leveled again), sometimes enough to stop the motor. Hopefully the new felt-covered clunk and Viton tubing will solve that.

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