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Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/15/2010 8:51 PM   
smithcreek



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From: Westerly, RI, USA
Status: offline 		A couple days ago I started designing my first scratch build, a Stolp Acroduster. It will have a 76" wingspan on the upper wing, 64" fuse length. This is the plane I'll probably be basing my finishing scheme on:



This one looks pretty cool, but I'm building a Weeks Solution that will already be black:



I found a 3-view on the internet. Lots of things don't match up with reality, but a good start:



The attachment below is how far I am in the design. The basic outline and formers are done. I lofted a surface to see how it all looks. All the surfaces on the fuse that I lofted are sheeted on the full scale. The wing is open structure, but again, I lofted to get an idea if it looked right.

Should be very easy to develop the main parts from what I've got so far including the fuse sides/bottom/top, formers/firewall, ribs, wingtips. I need to start figuring out things like wing saddle, how wing will be held on, where doublers will be needed, lightening holes, how wing will be constructed, etc. I'm hoping to get help as I go to make sure some decisions I made will work, and help making decisions in the future.



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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/15/2010 9:04 PM   
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Status: offline 		I know someone with a full scale Starduster One which is single seat and bottom wing ailerons only. One of the best looking bipes and the green one is crazy cool but I like the black one.

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/16/2010 5:12 PM   
pmw



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Status: offline 		I've got the original full scale plans for the Acroduster. If I can help you with the dimensions/details, let me know. I'd be glad to help. I've always loved this airplane.

Paul

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/16/2010 5:49 PM   
smithcreek



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pmw

I've got the original full scale plans for the Acroduster. If I can help you with the dimensions/details, let me know. I'd be glad to help. I've always loved this airplane.

Paul


Paul, thanks for the offer. With the full scale plans, did they give you a decent 3-view? The one I found on the web is ok, but requires a lot of staring at various pictures to fix.

It's a beautiful plane, especially with the right paint job. I almost bought a set of full scale plans myself, but decided I could get it close enough for my needs without them. Now I'm just too far into design to go back and do major changes, but I may ask for some help if I run into some issues. I was searching the web last night found some pictures I really could have used. They were of a full scale build, and just being able to see all the structure would have made is so much easier than trying to guess what was going on under the sheet metal and fabric. It was good to see most of my guesses were right. There was one assumption I made that was off, but looking at the full scale and how I would design the model I'm not sure I could have followed the full scale.

Maybe you can answer that for me. I don't know the correct names of the parts, so I'll guess. On the main frame, is the top wider than the bottom, especially towards the front? In other words, are the tubes that connect the top and bottom straight up and down or are they angled inwards from top to bottom? I assumed they were not angled, but I think I'm wrong. If they are angled the whole structure and what I see on the outside make more sense, but in the end on the model I will just make the fuselage box without an angle and put the shape in the formers, at least in the front where the fuse is sheeted.

I made some more very small mods to the formers and rear turtledeck, then made drew the stabilizer/elevator.





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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/16/2010 8:13 PM   
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Status: offline 		This is what the tube structure looks like. This is from a different biplane an Acrosport 11 but very much alike. Head on the structure has an upside down trapizoidal shape and the support tubes are arranged so they make triangles for strength. The stringers and bulkheads are mounted to this backbone for shape.

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/16/2010 8:53 PM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		Thanks TFF. After looking at more pics showing structure I think I'm ok. The reason I wanted to is without a 3-view that has cross sections, I'm completely making up the shape of the formers/bulkheads/stringers. I based my shape on a fuselage structure with a rectangle cross section, not a trapezoid. I did this because I'm planning on a lite ply box type fuse, like most kits are made with today, interlocking tabs and all. I own a cnc router, so fairly complex shapes should be no problem.

Anyway, yesterday after looking at more pictures I made changes to the former/bulkheads that let me get that slightly trapezoidal shape using a rectangular fuse box. I think I'm going to call the fuselage shape done and start making parts based on what I have.

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/16/2010 9:53 PM   
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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/19/2010 6:38 AM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		We had a pretty crappy weekend here weather-wise, no flying so I drew parts the whole time and my head is about to either melt or explode. I finished all but a couple parts for the fuse. Still need to attach the firewall, design the engine box and the fuse doubler. The wing really won't require almost any work, just take the rib profiles and notch them for spars, layout ailerons, lightening holes, probably add building jigs.

First picture is the lite ply fuse box, second is most of the formers/bulkheads for sheeting and hanging the stringers, final is everything together, enough to make my brain hurt.


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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/19/2010 8:08 PM   
pmw



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Status: offline 		smithcreek,

What you have drawn above is correct. The tubular structure of the fuselage is rectangular looking at the firewall. The vertical dimension is 21&1/2 in. and the horizontal is 28 in. These are the dimensions at the firewall and extend back for 51 in. At this point, the sides taper to the tail post and the bottom tubes angle up to the tail post. The upper tube is straight to the tail post looking at the side view. The tail post is 1 in. hoizontal and 15 in. vertical. The 3-view is much the same as you have. The only difference is the full canopy and wheel pants. If you need copies of any of the pages, PM me with your address and I'll send you what you need. Since Stolp is out of business, I don't think copyright is an issue, unless someone has purchased the plans. If so, I wouldn't want to cause a legal problem.

Paul

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 4/19/2010 8:51 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Aircraft Spruce owns the rights to the Starduster Family

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 5/10/2010 10:24 PM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		Almost done with all the fuse parts. Again, corrected more shapes that were way off in the 3-view like the rudder, stab and elevator. Put a lot of parts on a diet, may go back and do some more weight reduction. I bought and hooked up a 5hp vacuum pump on my cnc. Put a piece of MDF over the vacuum table, crank up the vacuum and drop a piece of 1/8" lite ply on top of the MDF. You can't move the ply no matter how hard you try. Should work great for cutting parts.


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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 5/11/2010 5:52 AM   
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Status: offline 		What are you going to power it with? Do you plan to sell kits?

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 5/12/2010 1:02 AM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		I have a DA-50 I think will power it nicely. Selling anything depends mainly on two things. First, I need to get it to fly well and that may take a few variations. Second, I don't know how well the vacuum table will work and that's critical to cutting parts in flat stock. I'm guessing that will work fine, but won't know until I try.

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/2/2010 11:32 PM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		Did some work on the wing the past couple evenings and a couple hours today. Bottom is pretty much ready to go. Most of the time was spent figuring out how I wanted to construct the whole thing since I was looking for as scale an appearance as I could get. That means I had to bury the main spar in the ribs, so I'm trying a main spar that is a box made from 1/8 light ply. The trailing edge is also light ply so I can have the ribs go right to the edge and not have any sheeting in the rear. I'm really hoping the top wing goes a bit faster.

Main Spar: 1/8" lite ply box
front spars 1/4" x 1/4" balsa (just there to support front sheeting
rear spar: 1/8" lite ply
trailing edge: 1/8" lite ply
ribs: 1/8" balsa
root rib: 1/8" aircraft ply
doublers: 1/8" lite ply
dihedral brace: 1/4" aircraft ply
front sheeting: 3/32" balsa
aileron le and wing te at ailerons: 3/8" balsa stick


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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/3/2010 7:33 PM   
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Status: offline 		Pretty nice. Wing ribs are similar to the real plane as they cut them out of a solid piece of ply. Keep it up.

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/8/2010 5:54 AM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		Ok, I think I'm done. Phew, that was a brainteaser. I'm sure it gets easier after you design a few, but being my first scratch build it was the first time I had to really think about all the parts instead of just assembling them from a kit. I'll spend a few hours looking for mistakes, after that it's time to lay the wing parts out and order some wood.

I had to completely redesign the bottom wing. When I started drawing the top I realized there were serious problems with the outline of both the top and bottom wing. Even though both wings on the full scale plane use the same ribs, I had drawn different ribs for the top and bottom based on the wing outlines I had originally drawn. It became clear the outlines were wrong when I tried to put ailerons on the top wing. Long story short, both wings now use the same ribs and I'm much happier with the wing shape/outline.



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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/8/2010 6:03 AM   
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Status: offline 		Lets see some wood flying off the CNC.

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/13/2010 6:43 PM   
smithcreek



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TFF

Lets see some wood flying off the CNC.

I'm with ya! Looking forward to seeing if all this "engineering" of parts with interlocking tabs and holes makes for an easy build. If it does, it should make the fuse pretty hard to not build straight and true.

I laid out all the parts to get them ready for cutting, made sure all the curves are going in the right direction, found a couple small mistakes, made a couple minor changes and finalized decisions on what material to make parts from. I decided to laminate any parts over 1/8" thick out of 1/8" stock, like the formers the landing gear is attached to and the landing gear plate. The formers will be made from 2 layers of 1/8" aircraft ply, the plate 3 layers. The engine box is the same, sides top and bottom 2 layers, front 3 layers. I decided on laminating because I can use a 1/16" router bit on 1/8" stock and that will give me much better inside corners and let me drill holes for things like the engine mounts.

Another reason is it will let me use more than one type of material for a part. The Fin Base will have a center section of 1/8" lite ply, two layer of 3/32" balsa and two layers of 1/16" balsa. The lite ply and 3/32" will have lightening holes and the 1/16" will be the sheeting, without holes.

Today I'm going to figure out what other wood I need, put together an order for wood and send it out. I'd like to cut the parts some time this week depending on when the wood shows up.



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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/21/2010 6:55 PM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		Parts is Parts!

All the lite ply has been cut. I stuck a bunch of parts together, just dry fit, to see how it goes together and looks. Looks like a good fit, a couple strokes with a sanding stick at each of the little tabs to square up the corners so the parts mate well and a quick hit with a sanding block on the edges to remove the dingleberries and I'm ready for glue. One last minute change I made was to make "cores" for the tail feathers. The leading edge of the fin and stab, and trailing edge of the rudder and elevators will be laminated and glued to the edge of the core. Balsa cross braces will be glued on the core cross braces, LE and TE sticks glued on for hinging.

I need to get the vacuum table out of the way for a job on the cnc, so a great excuse to cut the aircraft ply parts this morning instead of real work.

I've decided to have the balsa parts, mainly the ribs, cut by a laser shop. I tried a few sheets of ribs and there's just no way I can get the finish I'm looking for with a router bit. I made the ribs on the cnc for a Royal P-26 (P-26 build thread) I built from plans, but I knew the wing would be sheeted so I wasn't concerned about perfection. The ribs on this build will not have cap strips, so the finish needs to be perfect. If anyone has any experience with a laser shop that will cut from my CAD drawings please post, good or bad, I need to know where not to go as well as who does good work.



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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/21/2010 9:49 PM   
petronio


 

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Status: offline 		Looks great so far .

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 6/22/2010 7:21 AM   
TFF


 

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 8/16/2010 11:24 PM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		Looks like I'll have time to get back to work on this plane, so I should be posting some regular updates. I got the ribs cut by limeybob at Laser Design Services, I'm very happy with the way they turned out. I'm in the middle of making the cabanes and mounting the center of the upper wing. Next I'll solder in the rest of the cross supports for the cabanes, then after that I think I can sheet the fuse. Looking forward to seeing how the turtle deck looks when sheeted.



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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 8/18/2010 8:51 PM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		Finished the cabanes, all soldered, ready to go. Just need to epoxy some pieces of plywood on the firewall to hold the front cross braces in place. I'm trying to figure out the best order to build stuff, I think I'll put the wings together first, get them mounted, then plank the fuse. That will give me a chance to decide whether I'm going to use flying wires or not on the wings. If I don't and the plane flies well I'll regret not putting them in. If I put them in and the plane sucks I'll regret wasting the time. I'm leaning towards at least putting the necessary supports and attachment points in, then at a later date make the wires.



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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 8/18/2010 8:54 PM   
smithcreek



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Status: offline 		double post

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RE: Acroduster Too Design/Build - 8/19/2010 4:46 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Put them on.

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