Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's

Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's
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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 7:40:29 PM

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I built my own car (the one in my avatar), but I don't look down on those who drive production vehicles.

I (re)built my own house, but I don't look down on those who buy a ready-made house to live in.

I built my own first computer from the component level up, but I don't look down on those who buy a ready-made computer.

I built my own first TX and RX, but I don't look down on those who haven't.

I built my own first set of retracts from plans, but I don't look down on those who haven't.

... etc ...

So, I view ARFs in the same vein. I build a lot of models from kit or from scratch, but you have as much right to have fun with your ARF as I do with my kit or plan or own-design model.

I watched a wonderful scene about a year ago. Guy A had been beating up on Guy B for a while about the fact that Guy B flew only ARFs. Told him he was missing out on some wonderful experiences, and that he was just another one of the annonymous hordes flying pre-made toys, and that real men built their own airplanes - like his. Some time passes, then guy A comes out to the field in a shiny new Corvette and runs up & down the flightline bragging about it, wanting everyone to Oooh and Aaah over it. When he reaches guy B, B turns around and points into the parking lot. "See that little hot-rod over there ?" (Some custom 40's style creation). "I built that. By going out and buying the exact same car as everyone else can buy, you're missing out on some wonderful experiences. With that cookie-cutter car you're just another one of the annonymous hordes. Real men build their own cars". Kinda took all the fun out of guy A's day, so at least he finally experienced what he had been doing to so many other people.

Gordon

< Message edited by Gordon Mc -- Jul 18 2003 2:58PM >

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 7:49:11 PM

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ARFs are getting better since they are now building them from kits. I can now modify and adjust them to my liking. I still yank the covering off, inspect it, reglue the joints that are missed, reset incidences, fuel-proof, recover or glass, and replace the sh#$%y hardware and hinges with good quality stuff.

Just did this with an Eagle and Kaos, took only a weekend, and still was cheaper and much quicker than building from a kit, go figure.

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 7:55:56 PM

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I am not a big fan of ARFs, but then who cares. The only one that I have to please is me, and I enjoy building! If you want to fly an ARF thats up to you. Do what makes you happy because at the end of the day thats what REALLY COUNTS. Happiness can be hard to come by. So to each his own, go be happy!!

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 8:14:58 PM

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I have about an equal mix of plans built, kit built and ARF's, but I tend to go along with the old schoolers opposed to ARF's.

Mainly for this reason: I am disappointed that the new modelers do not possess the skills that this hobby / sport can teach. As an instructor, this makes a ton of more work for me. The student dings his / her plane and then "what do I do?" If they built it the first time, they would know what to do. Even if they did know what to do, they don't have balsa and covering scraps to repair anything - they don't even have a covering iron or all of the other building tools.

Oh, for Gordon Mc - I also did my own work doubling my house size with three car garage underneath. Would I do it again - yes!

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 8:25:46 PM

CCRC1

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Minnflyer, is absolutely correct, Building and flying are NOW two different interests. Years ago if you couldn't build, you couldn't fly, and I think a lot of folks saw your ability to build a quality aircraft as a right of passage. You had to be good at building in order to get the privilege of flying! Flying was something earned, and not bought off the shelf.
What the younger generation is missing is the satisfaction that comes with building their own aircraft. When you spend six months on a project and bring it to a meeting and see the reactions of the fellow members. When you put the aircraft in the air for its first flight and it flys better that you had hoped and you think to yourself, I created that! To take a pile of wood and other assorted materials and turn it into a great looking, head turning airplane that flys wonderfully, is a skill. You just can't buy that satisfaction and sense of accomplishment off a shelf.
Today modeling is in the eye of the beholder, it means something different to each individual. Even flying itself has changed! Smooth and precision flying has been replaced with wild and slamming maneuvers and hovering. I personally don't see the fascination with hovering, but I know guys who spend two thirds of their flight time trying to do this. If I want to hover I bring out my helicopter. Its all just perception

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 8:36:54 PM

bgi

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Let's see if this makes any sense:

How do you tell if kit-built plane is safe? It's not like you're about to tell that poor beginner, who just shelled out the bucks and spent hundreds of hours to build a kit, that you need to strip the covering off to inspect the glue joints and materials, that would defeat the purpose of building the kit in the first place. It's a leap of faith, not one I'm about to make when I know this beginner-built 'toy' may injure someone.

Besides, we're not about to let these lazy bums who don't have the patience or time to build a kit ruin OUR hobby, are we?

LOL!!!

Personally, I've seen many more kit-built planes fail than ARFs. All were due to builder or pilot error. Not that whether it was a kit-built or ARF matters at all anyway. What matters is that the plane was unsafe.

Me, I enjoy both and am still amazed at the intolerance this always stirs up. Can't we all just get along?

The "right of passage" theory gets my vote.

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 8:53:20 PM

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I have agree that building and flying are two separate parts of the same hobby, or "sport" as Dave Brown would like us to refer to it these days. It used to be for me that the building side was the most satisfying, now I would prefer to spend my time flying.
I would however agree that the ARF's do not teach even the most basic skills required, even if all you what to is just fly. I recently spent the batter part of 2 Saturday mornings at my flying field assembling and setting up an ARF for a newbie. The guy was absolutely clueless, he hadn't even picked up a model magazine before he purchased his ARF. To make matters even worse he had purchased it, not from the local hobby shop where he at least would have got some good guidance, but from one of the "chain Hobby shops" that seem to be appearing all over the place these days. Not only did he pay more than he would have at the local hobby shop, but he was missing essential items and even worse was also sold a bunch of stuff that was junk.
I finally got him up and flying and told him he need to go and do some home work. Guess what? I have not seen hide nor hair of him again! Warning! My days as an instructor are getting very close to ending, no thanks to ARF's

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 9:10:02 PM

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I will admit my fav plane plane was a superstar AWARF. Flew inverted perfect for a trainor. after plowing it into the ground on a inverted fly by, got a new wing, put a new tail on it, twin tail, and flew it again, once again, it flew even better, that was till a P-40 ARF slamed into it.

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 9:29:43 PM

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dago Red
Tall Paul

Are you calling people like me immature? [/QUOTE]
.
Do you react with hostility to ARFs?
Then yes, you're immature.
And inconsiderate of other's situations, who may not have arisen to your lofty status.
Gotta start at square one, whatever it takes to do that.
Flying is what counts. What is flown... not important.

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Some builder's attitudes suck! - 7/18/2003 9:32:18 PM

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A lot of you builders sure have an elitist point of view. And you mistakenly correlate ARFs with people who have no idea what they are doing. Don't be so quick to pass judgement.

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 9:36:36 PM

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goinstraightup
As an instructor, this makes a ton of more work for me. The student dings his / her plane and then "what do I do?" If they built it the first time, they would know what to do. [/QUOTE]

I don't see how this is fundamentally different than when the guy brings out a kit-built aircraft with a production engine on it, and he can't get the engine to run right.

Should I tell the guy that he ought to have built his own engine so that he understands how they work and how to properly set it up and troubleshoot it rather than waste my time ? I wouldn't - I'd help him understand what the problem was and how to fix it. To me it makes no difference whether I'm teaching him how to properly set the engine up, or how to do the best possible fix for some airframe damage, or how a servo works, etc.

As long as the student is willing to learn from me, rather than just expect me to do everything for him, I'm perfectly happy to teach him about each aspect of the hobby rather than only teach flying. After all, since building (etc) is such a major and interesting part of the hobby for some of us, why would you not be eager & willing to introduce someone to it ?

If a guy bought a kit, and had no idea how to put it together, and asked you for help understanding what to do & how to do it - would you help him ? If the answer is "no" then you just justified him buying an ARF instead of a kit ; if the answer is "yes", then why are you willing to teach him how to glue two parts together together in a kit, but not how to glue those same parts in an ARF ?

Gordon

< Message edited by Gordon Mc -- Jul 18 2003 4:47PM >

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 10:01:36 PM

bgi

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goinstraightup
I am disappointed that the new modelers do not possess the skills that this hobby / sport can teach. As an instructor, this makes a ton of more work for me. The student dings his / her plane and then "what do I do?"[/QUOTE]

Perhaps we could simply agree that the order of lessons might be different when ARFs are concerned. In this case, the student is learning to fly before he/she learns construction and repair. So, is this an issue? As an instructor, would you help the student build a kit? If so, then I see no issue. In fact, there is the advantage given to the student: He/she can see the finished product and get an idea of how kits might be built. Another advantage, when he/she breaks the trainer, he/she doesn't give up in frustration at having destroyed their precious plane painstakingly built over weeks of hard work.

< Message edited by bgi -- Jul 18 2003 5:06PM >

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Lest the wrong impression be made again... - 7/18/2003 10:12:41 PM

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IMHO, I am not elitist or hostile.

I do not treat a student who shows up with an ARF any different than one who shows up with a kit-built, scratch-built, SPAD what have you.

It's the personality of the person, not the type of aircraft. The 'instant gratification types' gravitate to the least work entry and pay little attention to anything you have to say. They just want their ticket to burn some holes in the sky. What's worse, not their fault but, the LHS and some local builders now cater to them. Here's some money, I want this ready to fly for the weekend.

Are all kits safe? No. But, at least there's a chance the person will consult with someone before proceeding to risk the effort they invested. There will always be the inept who don't care regardless of the route they choose. With many ARFs you get a hot glued shelf paper covered aboniation slapped together to a tight timeframe (piecework) by someone who's probably never seen one fly. It's not their fault, it's their job.

And 'Tall Paul', it's not about maturity, nor is it just about flying, it's about modelling. You only have half the picture and in your 'maturity' fail to comprehend the other half while condemning those who do....

Who was it who said "The point of a journey, is not to arrive". For me, ARFs eliminate the journey....

Why is it some people cannot distinguish between the mass market product and the consumer (themselves).... can it be they identify with their ARF?

Maybe building is a right of passage. Maybe it should be? I don't know, I'm just voicing one persons opinion, based on experience, I think it should. So go ahead and call me elitist or immature for not voicing the popular opinion. :

< Message edited by Jim_McIntyre -- Jul 18 2003 5:18PM >

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Why do a lot of Rc fliers have hostility towards ARF's - 7/18/2003 10:23:13 PM

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I�m new to RC planes and have been lurking for the past few weeks while my order of an ARF is on the way. I believe a lot of what is happening to the �RC Old School� community is much the same as what happened to me a few year back when that wonderful movie A River Runs Through It made its way through the masses of Americans waxing poetic. For the past eighteen years I�ve been building my own fly rods and tying my own flies. For a couple of years I even raised my own roosters for feathers. At the time the movie came out I was a guide on three major rivers here in western Colorado. I preferred to take folks who had some prior experience but would take anyone who showed some interest. I was witness to a wide window of people invading MY sport. After a day on the river clients usually fell into three categories: Macho, pleasant probable�s, and fun seekers.

I�ll work in reverse order here. The fun seekers were folks that came out, rented their equipment from the shop and wanted to experience the sport that I love so dearly. For the most part these clients were a joy. They took my instruction and recommendations in stride and went home with a smile on their face and a few fish tales to tell the family. I had the pleasant occasion to take some of these fine folks out a few more times before they bought their own equipment and went on to enjoy their own trips as they pleased. Next were the pleasant probable�s. I think these clients were my favorite. They came to be a part of the sport for what it is. It�s good days and its bad all rolled up for an enjoyable experience away from the city and taking in the outdoor experience. The clients asked questions, made notes, and took instruction in stride. Getting an old wise trout to eat a piece of wire covered in feathers is no easy task much like getting a hunk of balsa and a whirling prop to gracefully dance though 3D maneuvers. They would often ask for my fly pattern recommendations and the best way to present it to a particular fish I spotted for them. Next comes the demise to any hobby, sport, or activity of your choice. The Macho. This type of activists do what ever it is they do for themselves, period. We see them every day in everything we do. They work next to us, we see them in their H2, we see them on the river, and we see them at the airfield. The Machos would meet me at the designated meeting place all decked out. From head to toe they looked like a model out of the previous weeks Orvis catalog. For most, the day they purchased their thousands of dollars worth of equipment was the first day they had been to a fly shop. It was also the first time they had taken that little dirt road off the highway on the way to Aspen and seen the pretty little river. These folks wanted to use the fly�s that they wanted to use and tie them on with a knot that would hold a guppy. Casting instruction was out of the question. What�s so hard about it anyway? They would then begin to beat the water to a frothy mess and hang up in the tree behind them. By the grace of God I might be able to get them into three or four, twelve to fourteen inch fish. Respectable by all means but for the Macho this is unacceptable. Why were they not catching the behemoth? They had all the best equipment! They used their $4.00 flies (all the wrong size and color)!

Getting off my box it all comes down to one thing. You do what you do because you are doing it your way. You get out and enjoy your hobby/sport for what it gives you. Many of my best fishing friends have bought all their rods off the shelf and have never imagined of spinning a chicken on a hook. We go out together and both enjoy the day.

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Re: Lest the wrong impression be made again... - 7/18/2003 10:30:12 PM