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Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/6/2010 4:59 PM   
speedy72vega


 

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From: Littleton, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Just a heads up guys and gals. Beware when buying from Toysonics.com!
I will say this first, their packing and shipping is very fast, and their selection of products is decent, but if you have an issue, they don't seem to be willing to do much.

I purchased an ARF airplane from them about 5 weeks ago, a typical Chinese ARF. The instructions left alot to be desired, as usual.
I took my time, and assembled the plane over about a 4 week span, making sure everything was working properly. I've built quite a few planes, so i'm not a beginner, it was done right.
I finished the plane, and was very excited about getting it up in the air. I balanced it according to the instruction manual, and double and triple checked it. I did have a bad feeling right from the start though, the CG ended up being nearly 50% of the root chord.

I throttled up (asphalt runway) and the plane lifted up in about 10' and went straight up. It started to stall and roll, tail down, and I fought it for about 15 seconds before it did it's final roll, and went straight in.

The recommended CG was 146mm from L/E, and the root chord is only about 315mm. I plugged the wing dimentions into a CG calculator I found online (too late, of course), and the calculated CG was about 107mm from the L/E.

I e-mailed them right away and explained the situation, that the plane was clearly tail heavy when balanced at the recommended CG. They e-mailed me back and offered me 10% off of another plane. 10%???? The instructions were wrong, which caused the crash. I feel that they should have stood behind their products and sent me another plane.
I responded by sending them all of the info from the CG calculator, and mentioned that the manufacturer should be notified, and that they should take responsibility for their product, to which I never got a reply. I wasn't nasty or rude, the message I sent was written calm and clearly, exactly like i'm writing this post.

I did order another one because I really like the plane, it's exactly the size i'm looking for, and the quality isn't the worst, especially for a typical overseas ARF. They did honor their offer and refunded me the 10%, but I just wanted to warn others.
If you have an issue, don't expect them to stand behind their products.

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/6/2010 5:54 PM   
Hossfly



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Status: offline 		Take that CG problem as a good lesson. NEVER, NEVER pay much attention to a model airplane kit/plans suggestions concerning a CG position that results in a CG aft of 28% of the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC) for the first test flights.

If one uses 25% MAC as the first flight/s CG, one can be assured that any problem will NOT be a CG problem, especially in an RC model where the airflow is subsonic laminar.

The typical RECTANGLE form of wing is simply 25% of the chord, i.e. a 12" chord should balance at 3" back from LE. After a few flights, the pilot may add, remove, redistribute weights to attain a CG that suits his and the model's specific desires.

For a tapered wing one can simply use the mid points of the panels as the MAC. That is NOT correct however for all my many years of modeling it works close enough. For a swept wing, then refer to the more technical measuring procedures as you find in the "calculators".

I have one large model that using my 25% rule the Plan CG was 1.5" too far back according to my 25% rule. My CG came out about a 1/4" ahead of theirs. I flew the model as it was. What a mistake. I was doing 3-D stuff that the 3-D fliers did not recognize.
I managed to get it down. I added nose weight to get an inch forward. Flew OK but still touchy. Added more weight to attain the 25% MAC and it is now a ****cat. I fly it frequently at Big Bird events. Lands better than a trainer.

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/6/2010 7:02 PM   
speedy72vega


 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, you're absolutely right. I unfortunately trusted their recommended CG, but will be very cautious from now on!!

I just think it's sad that the company won't stand behind their product, I guess I kinda expected a little more. They're out of California, but sell overseas planes, much like NP.
At least NP seems to stand behind their products from what i've read in the NP forum.

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/6/2010 7:50 PM   
JohnBuckner



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Take that CG problem as a good lesson. NEVER, NEVER pay much attention to a model airplane kit/plans suggestions concerning a CG position that results in a CG aft of 28% of the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC) for the first test flights.

If one uses 25% MAC as the first flight/s CG, one can be assured that any problem will NOT be a CG problem, especially in an RC model where the airflow is subsonic laminar.






Any and all would be wise to heed the words above as well as learning to make decisions on where you want to fly your CG yourself rather than some small time resellers who know nothing of actually flying the product they are moving. Personally I cannot even remotely imagine ever taking any info for setup seriously from some reseller who uses the word 'Toy' in their name but perhaps thats just me.

The computer program for CG is fine but allows no learning or decisions on your part, Better to learn what Mean Aerodynamic Chord is and how simple it is to figure out even with complicated varibles such as various planforms using the midspan averaging technique that Hoss aludes to above.

It is my opinion learning the how and whys of making your own decisions is always the best way to go.

John

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/7/2010 4:07 PM   
RCVFR


 

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Status: offline 		It appears Toysonics is a retailer, not a manufacturer. What is it you think they did wrong? What is your expectation of them in this matter?

Just curious.

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/7/2010 4:37 PM   
speedy72vega


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Dines

It appears Toysonics is a retailer, not a manufacturer. What is it you think they did wrong? What is your expectation of them in this matter?

Just curious.

Jim, I know they're a Retailer, not a manufacturer. The LHS down the street isn't a manufacturer either, the other online retailers I deal with aren't manufacturers either.
But usually, if there's a problem with a product, they will exchange it in most cases, from my experience.
I at least expected them to stand behind their product, and at least send me a new plane, or at least give me one at cost.

I will say that their customer service rep is a very decent guy though, I spoke with him on the phone yesterday.
I received the new replacement kit I ordered, and someone had gone into the box and taken one of the 4 motor mounts. So now, I have a wrecked plane, and a replacement plane that won't fly with three motors. I called them yesterday to explain the situation, and the CS rep was very nice. He's going to send me a mount 2 day express mail, and he gave me another 10% off of my replacement plane.

All in all, I will most likely order from them again, because I like their prices and selection, plus they ship from here in the US with FedEx or USPS very quickly.
But I will definitely know that it will be at my own risk if something goes wrong.

I just started this post as a warning to others as to buying at 'their own risk', that's all.

And I will definitely calculate my own CG locations from now on!!!! So, lesson learned.

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/7/2010 4:58 PM   
scale only 4 me



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quote:

ORIGINAL: speedy72vega
I balanced it according to the instruction manual, and double and triple checked it. I did have a bad feeling right from the start though, the CG ended up being nearly 50% of the root chord.

It just amazes me how many guys just want to come on the Forum and flame businesses

Then why did you fly the plane when you knew something was not right???
So if you would have CGed the plane out correctly like you should have you'd be in love with Toysonics.com

I guess you did learn a leason, when you buy these cheap Chinese arfs from a here today gone tomorrow Co. you better make sure everything is airworthy


I'm curious thou, what plane are we talking about here?


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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/7/2010 8:27 PM   
speedy72vega


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scale only 4 me

quote:

ORIGINAL: speedy72vega
I balanced it according to the instruction manual, and double and triple checked it. I did have a bad feeling right from the start though, the CG ended up being nearly 50% of the root chord.

It just amazes me how many guys just want to come on the Forum and flame businesses

Then why did you fly the plane when you knew something was not right???
So if you would have CGed the plane out correctly like you should have you'd be in love with Toysonics.com

I guess you did learn a leason, when you buy these cheap Chinese arfs from a here today gone tomorrow Co. you better make sure everything is airworthy


I'm curious thou, what plane are we talking about here?


First off, I didn't FLAME the business, I wanted to give fellow modelers a heads up about their chances of getting a replacement if something goes wrong. If you had actually read ALL of my post, you would see where I even applauded them for their fast shipping and good CS rep.

Second, I'm not an Aeronautical engineer, nor do I design and build aircraft for a living!! I build and fly airplane kits and ARFs as a hobby, for fun. I do rely to a certain extent on the DESIGNERS of the plane to at least supply somewhat correct information, especially the correct CG.

Third, I didn't KNOW something was wrong, I SUSPECTED something was wrong, solely because none of my other planes have the CG at or near 50% of the root chord.

Fourth, Toysonics also sells alot of the name brand planes too, that are for the most part also made overseas!

Yes, it is a learning experience. Everyone on these boards, including the 'know-it-all' yahoos that only come on to a thread to bash the OP, have had to learn the many aspects of this hobby. Yes, this means you too! Nobody, i'll repeat, NOBODY is born knowing all of this.

Nowhere in this thread did I ever say not to buy from Toysonics, just bringing to light my situation, so others can decide to shop there or not.
I even stated that I would most likely buy from them again, but now I know what to expect.


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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/7/2010 10:33 PM   
scale only 4 me



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quote:

Third, I didn't KNOW something was wrong, I SUSPECTED something was wrong, solely because none of my other planes have the CG at or near 50% of the root chord


Where's your thread asking if it's ok to fly the plane with the CG the way it was?
No, you crash a plane when you "SUSPECTED something was wrong",, then it bash the Vendor for not sending you a new plane??
You were lucky to get the 10% off IMO,,,

You should start a thread in the ARF forum warning people of the error you found in the instructions
But scanning your posts I don't see that either

< Message edited by scale only 4 me -- 5/7/2010 11:44 PM >

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 2:51 AM   
LSF2298


 

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Status: offline 		scale, do you have some value to add to this discussion or just trollling??

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 3:08 AM   
scale only 4 me



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Status: offline 		Yes,, How about you?

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 4:11 AM   
JohnBuckner



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Status: online 		Speedy72Vega I saw nothing in your posts that were even remotely out of bounds I did not consider your posts as flaming. Perhaps some emotion did show through but nothing like some flaming threads.

Threads like this can indeed be helpfull in helping folks make their own decisions. Laundered sterile threads about retailers serve no purpose.

So don,t take it to heart speedy and continue to learn all you can but I still can't imagine doing business with anyone calling themselve a 'toy' business in their name that insult must be an oldtimers thing I suppose


John

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 4:52 AM   
speedy72vega


 

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Status: offline 		I completely know where you're coming from about the name John , but they're very similar to Nitro Planes, and they sell Great Planes, Top Flite, etc also.

The thing that most attracted me to them was the fact that they ship from the US, so no outrageous shipping costs, and they were the only ones I could find that had the plane in stock. Well, Easy Tiger models had it also, but only a plug-and-play version for $500.00. NP advertised it for $20.00 more than Toysonics, but were out of stock, as usual.

I'm just used to Horizon, and the other well known brands, as far as standing behind their products, I just want other hobbyists to know what to expect, that's all.


In case anyone's interested, it's a 65" B17 Bomber, glass fuse, balsa wing, retracts, pretty decent model. It's definitely not an exact scale plane, but i'm in it for fun, that's all, and it's exactly the size I was looking for. It comes in an olive green version, and a silver version.
I

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 5:12 AM   
JohnBuckner



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Status: online 		Very Cool please do a build thread in the multi engine forum In more recent years multi's have been a passion for me and currently have eight flying including twins, a triple, two quads and a six pack

John

Remember lets see that puppy inside and out when Ya get it

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 8:40 AM   
speedy72vega


 

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Status: offline 		You've got some fantastic planes there, John!! I'm jealous!!!

Here's a few pics of the B17 during the build, I didn't take any finished pics before the flight, I guess I should have........

I will start a build thread once I start on the new one. Right now, i'm patching up the crashed one so I can straighten out the whole CG issue before building the new one.
I'm calling it 'Frankenbomber', . It won't be pretty, but I have every intention of making it fly!

By the way, I also have an E-flite Deuces Wild, which is a twin. It is a blast to fly, it's my first multi engine (or motor, it's EP) bird.

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 9:03 AM   
JohnBuckner



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Status: online 		What an interesting Arf, really kinda neat. Those props sure are hugh One of the fellows locally picked up a Deuces wild and flew it a few times which went nicely but him being new to electric it was not a good choice. After he fryed several of those 150 dollar batteries due to his crude charging attempts I think he parked it.

John



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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 6:10 PM   
scale only 4 me



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Status: offline 		Speedy,
I apologize if I was picking on you, but I see your OP as typical of many on this board, Including myself, We scan Ebay and the many various E-tailers looking for the lowest price/shipping possible. That becomes the determining factor as to who we buy from. Then when there's a problem and the customer service sucks we take it out on the E-tailer or Ebay seller on these public forums. So maybe Flaming or Bashing isn't really your intent. Letting people know your customer service experience,, I can accept that.

What people need to always remember is the fact is most e-tailers are just sales sites, the have no stock. the are just internet sites that sell for the distributers. The products are shipped directly from a warehouse somewhere. You can open one of these E-stores today and sell anything from R/C stuff to Adult diapers. All you have to do is sit down at the computer and post stuff up. Toysonics is no different, actually a quick scan of the whois reveals a po box that has been used for a few other e-tailer sites also.

Now you Google a part of the description of that plane and you'll get 600 hits http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-menuext&ie=UTF-8&q=B-17+Flying+Fortress+Bomber+65%22+RC+Remote+Electric+Brushless+Airplane+Warbird+ARF I can't count how many different sites are selling that plane,, all out of stock

Believe me, I'm no better,
Recent I bought a GWS Zero/Flight pack from a Ebay seller, Build thread here http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9625739/tm.htm The kit came all banged up by the motor bouncing around loose in the box, the sticker sheet was almost useless also, and after building I find out he Rx in the flight pack is DOA. When I emailed the guy I got no response at all. Looking over his feedback I see this has happened before many times, but he has 50k positives so he's doing pretty good, but when ever there is a problem the guy in MIA. I could have bought everything from Tower, most likely I would have spent an extra $15-$20 and I know any and all of the problems would have been resolved by them. The only difference is I didn't bother mentioning the guy's Ebay Name because I know I screwed up and the lack of customer service is my fault for not investigating the guy before I made the purchase. I'm taking the hit on the cheap Rx. Although I guess I can email GWS and see what they say.

Lesson learned by me once again,, You get what you pay for

Good luck with the new plane

p.s.
Did you ever get your stuff from R/C Timer? I'm guessing it was stuff for this same plane?

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/8/2010 7:53 PM   
speedy72vega


 

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Status: offline 		No prob Scale, apology accepted. My only intent really is to let others know about my experience, so they can decide whether to buy from them or not. As I said before, I will most likely buy from them again, because I like their selection, and the fact that they ship from the US. Their customer service rep really was very good, he tried to do what he could to help me.
I just know to be a bit more careful next time.

I had purchased smaller items from them before, connectors, hardware, etc, and it was a good experience, so I figured i'd go ahead and get the plane from them.
I don't regret the purchase at all, I do like the plane alot. There aren't very many B17s available out there that aren't 70", 80", and bigger. I'm just not interested in those giant scale planes.
For me, this one is the perfect size, even though it's not an exact scale replica, you can still tell it's a B17.

As far as the setup, i'm not an expert (yet), but this has definitely caused me to do some serious research into the whole CG setup process. All in all, it has and continues to be a learning experience. I am in the process right now of pasting the original one together so I can fly it again, and work out the balance issues. Once it's figured out, I intend to start another build thread on the new one (I did one on the original on another forum), and note the proper CG for anyone else that's building this plane.

BTW, I did get my order from RCTimer yesterday, so about 3 weeks. I guess that's not too bad, the shipping only cost me $2.00. I just got very concerned when I couldn't get back onto the website, I thought they might be going away and took my $. I guess they were just having website issues, because I can get on just fine now. I gave them positive feedback on the site.
I bought some of the 8X4E props for the B17, their prices were pretty good.

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RE: Buyer beware-Toysonics - 5/12/2010 5:53 PM   
speedy72vega


 

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Status: offline 		Well, here's a quick update on the whole B17 situation, if anyone's interested.

I ended up patching the plane up and flying it again. I set the CG to 103mm as a starting point, and the plane flew great. Problem is, the amount of weight it took to balance the plane put the AUW at close to 8 lbs. I ran 2 3S 3000ma packs all the way up in the nose, and still had to add 6oz of weight to the nose.

I ended up stalling it in a turn, the wind had picked up and I needed more airspeed in the turns, and it went in again. This last crash was my fault, and I certainly learned alot from this plane before it went in, so it wasn't a total loss. I did get 2 good flights in before the crash.

There are a few things that the instruction manual stated that are completely wrong though, for anyone interested in getting one of these.
First, the CG is very wrong at 146mm, should be more like 103-108mm.
Second, with the plane balanced where it should be, the plane wants to nose over on the gear very easily, so the gear needs to be adjusted to compensate. What I did was to bend the wire gear until the tires were as close to the front of the wheelwell as possible in the retracted position. This helped a lot!
Next, the recommended control throws for the Ailerons is WAY too much. They recommend 15mm, should only be 5-8mm, as the plane is VERY sensitive to Aileron input. The Ailerons are oversized for this bird as it is.
Also, since the AUW is higher than what the wing is designed for (IMHO), the excessive wing loading requires more airspeed than would be expected. It will stall and roll very quickly, and is very hard to recover from once it happens.

I guess when all is said and done, I wouldn't recommend this plane for a beginner, it requires that you 'fly' it the whole time it's in the air. It must be flown all the way to the ground also, it's definitely not a floater.

I am now in the process of putting the new one together, and I think I will have a much better chance of keeping this one in the air. It has definitely been a learning experience, and hopefully I can walk away a better pilot and builder in the end.

Thanks for everyone's input.

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