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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/6/2010 5:06 PM

Yura

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It is definitely possible. The only thing that matters - which wattmeter to choose.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/7/2010 1:24 AM

nickster46

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Here is a video of my small bolt on 4s. It is not the best quality vid but it is better than my other vids wich I took with my Iphone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5H3al4DhY8&feature=channel

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/7/2010 6:50 AM

carakter

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@Yura - You're right . . it will definitely fit, however . . it may affect the COG. . . too much weight in the boat.
I'm using the Watt's Up brand. I think the Turnigy is a good copy of the product though.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/7/2010 6:55 AM

carakter

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@nickster - It definitely has potential however, I think you need more pond space to see it's real potential.
I'd like to see more fast passes! Not short bursts of speed.

Is that a bigger body of water I see behind you? Oh, and that was you in the video right?

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/7/2010 12:14 PM

nickster46

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Yes, that handsome guy in the blue t-shirt, that's me

Behind me is a bigger pond but yesterday when I took the video there was too much wind and waves on that piece of the pond so I decided to run here.
This is a little pond compared to the lake wich is behind my house.
I understand you want a longer fast pass but as I said I am a bit secure with the stock motor on 4s. I am now discovering it's limits. Everytime I'm holding full throttle for a second or two longer. After all the warnings on this forum about burning the motor I am cautions. After this run (wich was about 10 minutes) I could place my finger on the motor (not the cooling jacket) without burning. I didn't had my temp. meter with me so I couldn't measure. I guess it won't be a problem on 4s if you are sure that your watercooling is in good working order.

Another point of interest is maybe the rudder and it's water pickup, wich is on the left side. So if you turn right it won't pickup water. And that's not good because I am turning clockwise most of the time.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/8/2010 1:32 AM

madmax93

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Is a left hand prop the correct prop?

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/8/2010 8:18 AM

carakter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: madmax93

Is a left hand prop the correct prop?

Yes it is. All props without the R (e.g. 430R) are LEFT rotating props.
This type of prop is the norm for single screw boats.
Right rotating props are only used (together with a left rotating prop) when the boat has two driveshafts - (twin screw) - one LEFT & one RIGHT rotating prop.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/8/2010 8:23 AM

carakter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nickster46

Yes, that handsome guy in the blue t-shirt, that's me -

Another point of interest is maybe the rudder and it's water pickup, wich is on the left side. So if you turn right it won't pickup water. And that's not good because I am turning clockwise most of the time.
That is an issue that needs to be addressed. But since you are getting cold readings on your current setup, then it is not a concern for you at the moment.
DO try getting a few (longer) fast passes and check your temps again.
Also, start doing wide ovals - continous runs - like you are in a real race.
You don't really want to stop running, just slow down if needed.

Start exploring the idea of placing 2 or 3 empty milk jugs or gallon plastic bottles in that small pond of yours. Tie a rope on it's handle and secure a small rock or something on the other end so as to keep it in place . . . then you have a small oval course to practice with!

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/8/2010 2:58 PM

nickster46

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Nice idea, but I'll let it pass. I am more a recreational owner of the small bolt. Wich will definetely not mean that I don't want to go as fast as possible.
But I mean that I am not interested in lap times or something like that. I like to see the small bolt go fast and to play with the throttle to see how it accelerates. Maybe I like the acceleration more than the top speed.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/9/2010 11:49 PM

Pekka L

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Hi!

Just to inform you, that long runs with 4s will fry the original motor (if you use 30mm prop).
Might work better if you replace original drive hardware as it seems to have some extra friction.

I ran my Small bolt with original motor and 4s 4-5 times. Last run was continous full speed run and the motor died (motor cables fried :-O

after few minutes.
Good speed but didn't last that long :-)

4200kV outrunner went nice... As long as I fried it with Octura 34mm prop....
5000kv on 2S worked well for 30s....

So three fried motors with one Small Bolt... Record maybe?

I'll have to figure out something new for next summer.... I have Turnigy 2040 size inrunner, with 4850kV, but didn't have time to really test it.
Went ok for short bursts with 2s.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/10/2010 5:30 AM

carakter

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Now I know why I should have included the 427 prop in my order.
The scenarios seems to be getting clearer . . . higher kv's = smaller props.
Of course, it may be that we're using cheap motors with questionable quality.
I do know for a fact (and experienced it in my SV27) that the cheap Turnigy BL inrunner motors are only good for a few runs.
Maybe it's the type of magnet wires used (thinner / not pure?) . . . or the way it was wound into the can . . . we can only guess . . .
But I am thnking that for them to offer cheap motors, one has to cut corners - cheap labor cost is one . . materials used is another . . .

Even the Feigao motors run hotter and eats more amps than same size branded (read: expensive!) motors.
Of course, it's the price difference that sways one's decision into it.
Question is, are we really realizing savings? With burned motors left and right, maybe we have to re-think our position.

Please indicate your setup (motor brand, Kv, battery, esc, prop) so we know what works and what burns.
No sense replicating a failed trial.

Ah, still that elusive balance between speed, performance and reliability!
Push on guys! We'll get there.

< Message edited by carakter -- 9/10/2010 5:51 AM >

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/10/2010 11:15 AM

Yura

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carakter
Question is, are we really realizing savings? With burned motors left and right, maybe we have to re-think our position.

Yes, we are, I think.
I've heard several offers to replace ESC with reliable one.
For example "Castle creations". Look for it's price.
Then they offer to replace motor. Then batteries. And then whole boat...

Probably you just want to burn motors... If not, why are you trying outrunners?

As for Pekka's burned stock motor - it can have burned because of ESC. I mean if ESC die it will cause motor to die. Have your ESC survived, when stock motor burned?
Also a bit durty connectors maybe.

I think that (as nickster46 tested) 4S battery is the best improvement for this boat. Or 3S with ~3500kv inrunner.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/10/2010 12:06 PM

nickster46

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In my opinion the best bet is 4s with the stock motor and upgraded esc.
I fried a 4800kv outrunner on 3s really fast. so replacing the stock motor for an outrunner is not the best solution as Yura said.
You really need the watercooling.
Yura also suggested 3s with a 3500kv inrunner. Yesterday I tried a 3600kv inrunner on 4s. I was not very satisfied. I couldn't notice any positive results on speed/power (maybe a very minor difference) But there was a really big difference in running time and temperature. The motor was cold (max 30 degrees Celcius) but my battery pack was swollen and hot (60+ degrees). And my runtime was 1/3rd of my runtime with the stock motor.
So I guess the 3600kv draws to much amps without gain.
Conclusion: the 3600kv inrunner on 4S is not the combination I would recommend. I replaced my stock motor again.

I guess this is my best bet with the Octura X432. I don't want to change my prop so I stay with the 2604kv. The combination Torque/speed/runtime is fine for me.
I agree with Yura and it's highly recommended to upgrade your ESC before you even think about changing motors or use 4s batts.
My esc can handle up to 6s so on 4s it sits comfortable. When the esc is getting pushed to it's limits than the motor will be affected by that (temps) and burn. As said my motor temps are cool.
For the ones who missed the link to my esc: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380259653445&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Edit: Just ordered this 2900kv inrunner http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RC-Model-2900-RPM-V-KV-Inrunner-Brushless-Motor-IM196-/270593156415?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item3f009be53f

This one can handle up to 18volt input so it won't be a problem running full throttle on 4s! Can't wait to install this one.

< Message edited by nickster46 -- 9/10/2010 12:35 PM >

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/11/2010 9:55 AM

carakter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nickster46
I don't want to change my prop so I stay with the 2604kv. The combination Torque/speed/runtime is fine for me.

May I suggest you reconsider this position . . . an Octura prop will cost you same as one of your burned motors. You experiment with motors, why not props?
Of course . . . this is just a suggestion . . .

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/13/2010 11:36 AM

nickster46

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This weekend I did 5 runs (5 sessions) with the small bolt. Again on 4s lipo. I was able to run full throttle the entire run. (about 8-10 minutes). The motor was cool but the battery pack was hot and a bit swollen. So I guess my next problem will be the batterypack's C-rating. After I tried the 3600kv (a few posts back) my brand new batterypack was swollen too. I discovered that one of the batteries, I've got two 2s lipos placed in serial, died. The c-rating of this packs is 15 with 20c burst. That is, as I expected, way too low.
I guess I need 25c with 30c burst.
But it isn't easy to find two small 2s packs with that C-rating. Otherwise it easier to find one 4s lipo pack with this higher C-rating but than the problem is that most of this packs are too big for this small bolt. the smallest I could find was 2800mah. this one is too big/heavy for the boat.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/13/2010 1:12 PM

carakter

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Look at this:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11900&Product_Name=Turnigy_nano-tech_1000mah_2S_25~50C_Lipo_Pack

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11902&Product_Name=Turnigy_nano-tech_1300mah_2S_25~50C_Lipo_Pack

May I also suggest you get a Watt Meter while you're at it. This way you know how much amps your motors are pulling.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/13/2010 5:33 PM

nickster46

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Both of them will be placed in backorder so when I finally have them it is winter here

I do have got a 3000mah 4s lipo pack with 35c rate and 40c burst. I have tried this one once, but I can't remember wich results I got with it and what my setup was at the time.
I will try this one tonight to see what the results are. It weighs 225gr, that quite heavy for this little boat.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/13/2010 5:34 PM

Yura

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Batteries usually become hot and puff at the end of the cycle.

It's better to run with over-rated current till 3.3-3.7V each cell than discharge battery with smaller current, but down to 2.7-2.9V/cell.

Don't let them run till the cut-off (stop run by estimating time) or increase cut-off voltage if this setting available for the ESC (for non-stock ESC).

Also check if batteries balanced well with your charger.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/13/2010 5:51 PM

nickster46

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Thank you. I can set the cutoff on the ESC to 12v (3V/cell) for 4S battery type.
I'll have to verify that this option is set.
Yura: Are you saying that it's better to immediately stop the boat when it slows a little bit down (caused by the batteries running empty) than to run the battery completely empty? I am asking because I heard once that it's better for batteries to discharge completely before charging.

< Message edited by nickster46 -- 9/13/2010 6:34 PM >

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/13/2010 7:26 PM

Yura

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You better set it to 3.3V/cell.

For Li-ion and Li-Po batteries it's ALWAYS better NOT to discharge it completely. (And even for Ni-Mh). It is only good to full discharge for Ni-Cd.

Discharging below 2.7V damage Li-xx cell.

More often you discharge it below 3V = less battery life.

I'm saying it's better finish run (at least full speed) before it's slowing down. You can make it by measuring runtime and using clock or approximately.

But even know this, I've stopped a many times when cut-off appeared. It's not good.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/13/2010 7:58 PM

carakter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nickster46

Thank you. I can set the cutoff on the ESC to 12v (3V/cell) for 4S battery type.
I'll have to verify that this option is set.
Yura: Are you saying that it's better to immediately stop the boat when it slows a little bit down (caused by the batteries running empty) than to run the battery completely empty? I am asking because I heard once that it's better for batteries to discharge completely before charging.

This truth (running on empty - dead short - zero discharge) only applies to nicd's and (some say) nimh batteries.
You DON'T do this with lithium polymer (lipo) batteries. You will kill them!
This is why esc's now have a cutoff. If you go beyond 3V, most likely your pack is headed for the trash can.
Yura is right. When your boat slows down noticeably, bring it in.

You can Balance Charge lipo's even when they are half charged / half used. They don't have memory effect. Nimh's and Nicd's do.
Your charger probably has a storage charge feature? Use it.

When I am finished for the day, I balance discharge my packs to 3.3V per cell, then set the charger for storage charge.
But you can skip the discharge step - it's just me.
This (storage charge feature) pumps in about half the mah requirements and around 3.85V per cell,
but keeps the battery in good shape for extended periods in storage.
In fact, this is the state of your battery whenever you get them new from the store.
Which is why you are supposed to full charge them before you use them the first time. . and everytime your lipo pack is in storage charge.

Me and my friends have experienced dead lipo's in storage - why? We kept them full charged and stored them for a few months.
Result? some dead packs!

Oh, just FYI, Lipo cells have a shelf life . . whether you use them or not.
They will just die on you after a few short years - especially the cheap ones.
This is why some online stores put their packs on sale after a while - old stocks!
But battery chemistry is getting better fast . . . higher C ratings and improved shelf life . . . hopefully the nano-tech improves on this.

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/14/2010 10:31 AM

nickster46

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That's great guys. thanks for the tips! Yesterday I stopped running when the boat starts to slow down.
It was quite a windy place and the water was rough. But as I am a real Captain I decided to run the small bolt.
I couldn't run full throttle because the wind started to get under the hull and the boat was jumping on the waves.
Than, after a full throttle distance, the wind came under the hull and the small bolt was flying, after a backflip/salto the boat was upside down in the water...
Too bad I wasn't recording when it went up..

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/15/2010 5:04 AM

madmax93

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A few questions.. what should I use to power the receiver..the battery box or a BEC?
In the directions it shows a battery box with switch.
I got some batteries when I bought the boat that came with the xt60 connector, so should I change
the boat to the xt60 or put deans on the batteries?

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RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/15/2010 10:50 AM

carakter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: madmax93

A few questions.. what should I use to power the receiver..the battery box or a BEC?
In the directions it shows a battery box with switch.

Just plug your battery and it will power the Rx.

quote:

ORIGINAL: madmax93
I got some batteries when I bought the boat that came with the xt60 connector, so should I change
the boat to the xt60 or put deans on the batteries?

It's entirely up to you. I changed mine to deans because I have spares and my charger's connectors are deans. . .
but if I were starting out, I'd change to XT60.

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Post #: 249

RE: HK Small Bolt Hydro same as HOTR - 9/15/2010 12:54 PM

Yura

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Receiver would be supplied from the stock ESC, when you connect it in the THROTTLE channel of Rx.

You don't need extra BEC or battery.

Throw away that manual.

You only need to mount the rudder according to it. Other useful things mentioned here.

I made XT60 male -> Deans female adapter with good 12 AWG (14 or 16 fits) wires about 5-7cm.

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Post #: 250

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