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Gordon Banks???? - 4/24/2002 4:05 AM   
tailskid



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Status: offline 		Question, Does Gordon Banks know what you guys are doing with Pizza boxes? You had better watch out, he might come out with a Bi-Pizza box

Jerry

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Pizza box flying - 4/24/2002 8:40 AM   
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Status: offline 		Great pictures Dave. It was a little windy today, but I got two good flights today with my PBF. It balanced at 23% MAC and I wouldn't move it back anymore because elevator was very sensitive. I woudn't move it further forward eigther because I like sensitive. Since it was so windy, I didn't feel comfortable really wringing it out to see what it could do, but I managed some loops and rolls. Mostly, I just kept up high and hovered into the wind. The 32sx is way more power than a 2lb 5oz plane needs, but it didn't cause any bad flight tendencies. I'm very happy with it and look forward to seeing what it can do. Thanks all for this thread.

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Info to build a Pizza Box plane - 4/24/2002 10:48 AM   
Dave McDonald



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Between Foamguy and myself, you will probably find enough details posted in the original Pizza Box thread to build one for yourself. But if you still need more details, I will try to help. Just click on the [URL=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tm.asp?m=66480]Flying Pizza Box[/URL] to read the original thread.

As far as your Webra 32, it will work fine on a 24"x24" Pizza Box plane......but you will have to be more careful with the throttle.

This Pizza Box plane flys so well I was able to limbo it under our frequency pin board! (with only Tim and myself at the field, I couldn't resist!))

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Pizza box flying - 4/24/2002 11:54 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hey Dave... do you think the Rudder really helps?

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 12:21 AM   
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I did not see Tim's pizza box during the limbo. Could it be you knocked him out of the sky again, ..................................... and again, ........................ and again.

Crash99

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Rudder worth it? ABSOLUTELY!!!!! - 4/25/2002 2:47 AM   
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I would highly recommend that you use a rudder on your Pizza plane. A moveable rudder definitely improved the aerobatic and hovering capabilities.......and also gave the Pizza plane precision maneuvering control far beyond my wildest expectations!

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Bottom view of Pizza Box flyer - 4/25/2002 3:39 AM   
Dave McDonald



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I know you asked this question in the other [URL=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tm.asp?m=66480]Flying Pizza Box[/URL] thread, but I'll answer here to try to keep things simpler.

Here is a photo of the bottom of my Pizza Box flyer showing the motor mount, the exhaust diverter tube, and a tape measure for reference. This motor mount was made from scrap pine lumber, with a pine spacer block cut to the width of the engine crankcase. The mounting rails were then screwed to the spacer block, and the whole motor mount was fastened to the wing with six screws from the topside of the wing.

And yes, the wing measures 20 inches from the leading edge to the hingeline, with the elevon being 4 inches wide......for a total wing length of 24 inches..

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< Message edited by Dave McDonald -- Apr 25 2002 1:51AM >

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Top view of motor mount area - 4/25/2002 3:54 AM   
Dave McDonald



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Here's the top view of the motor mount area. The receiver, battery, and fuel tank were removed to declutter the photo.

Note the plastic doubler pieces directly above the motor mount. The six screws that fasten the motor mount to the wing are #6 sheet metal, about 1 inch long. Tim used 1/8" plywood for his doubler, and only four screws, and it seems to be holding together just as well as mine.

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 3:57 AM   
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Status: offline 		Dave - what engine is that?

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Antique Pizza Box engine - 4/25/2002 4:17 AM   
Dave McDonald



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It's an old bushing OS 25. OS eventually replaced them with the FP series.....which in turn was eventually replaced by the LA series. It's old.....but it's lightweight and still runs great!

Tim is using an OS 25FP, which runs just as well. Plus his muffler bolts on instead of using a clamp. Therefore I fully expect that he will try a Mousse Can Pipe sometime in the near future. This would not only add power, but it would also help to divert the exhaust glop away from the radio at the same time. A win-win situation!

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 4:23 AM   
PaulSwany



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Status: offline 		Boy... that thing is pretty moldy... But I like it!! I just need to get a desent carb for my 25 la and I'm in business!!

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 4:46 AM   
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not a box, but we're having fun with these

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< Message edited by phillybaby -- Apr 24 2002 8:55PM >

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 6:10 AM   
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Status: offline 		Hey phillybaby,

That is really cool videos on your Delta. Don't tell Dave and Tim about them. They will bump each other out of the sky like on your video. Verry Cool

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 7:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		My engineer father-in-law is telling a speed 400 electric motor wouldn't be enough to pull one of these around. I have to believe it would. Any thoughts?

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 7:17 AM   
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Status: offline 		I was thinking that this would make an excellent electric project because it is very similiar to an IFO (minimum structure/maximum wing area). If you make it light enough so you get a 1 to 1 thrust to weight ratio, it will fly for sure. Mine flys well at 1/4 throttle which is well below its weight in thrust.

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 7:23 AM   
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Status: offline 		Oh, I think coroplast would be a bit too heavy for an electric though. Maybe foamboard or just a square IFO type construction.

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 9:05 AM   
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Status: offline 		I fly a 24 ounce zagi with the same motor. I think the pizza box would come in a lot lighter than that. What weight do you guys think yours are sans motor/fuel tank?

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Dave - 4/25/2002 11:58 AM   
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Thank you for the pics and explanations. As soon as I put my hands on some coroplast, Ill have one in the air with my webra 32 and standard radio gear all around. BTW, you used 4mm coro on yours, right...
Ill let you know how things go.
Thanks

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 12:06 PM   
Craig-RCU



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Status: offline 		Mine is 2'x2' with a 6"x6" vstab, made from 3/16" thick foamboard and looks about the same as the pictures posted. It weighs about 14oz minus th engine, tank, battery, landing gear and throttle servo. The foamboard weighs 2.16 oz/ft*2 (.015oz/in*2), so just the foamboard used weighs 9.2 oz.

You might design your Electric-PBF by looking at your available thrust minus motor, servos, esc and battery weight. If thrust exceeds the weight of the "necessaries" you have a chance at unlimited verticle provided this won't leave you with an unbearbly high wing loading. For example, If your necessaries weigh 1lb and your thrust is 1.5 lb then you have a budget of .5lb for foamboard weight. That would leave you with 533in*2 to make a wing and vstab. If the vstab is 6"x6" you have 497in*2 (3.45ft*2)left for a wing. But that leaves you with an incredibly light wing loading of 7oz/ft*2 so you could reduce the wing size and weight further. I'd say shoot for a wingloading of around 10-16oz/ft*2. If you have no shot at unlimited vertical (ie weight of the necessaries exceeds thrust), go for a light wing loading (your Zagi's wing loading should work) in order to keep on step easier. If weight of the necessaries is less than thrust go for a lighter plane with smaller wing and higher wing loading as long as you don't exceed a wing loading of around say 20oz/ft*2 or whatever high wing loading you think you can handle. Base this on your Zagi. Twice the wingloading means twice the landing speed. Good luck.

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24" x 24" x 4mm - 4/25/2002 12:16 PM   
Dave McDonald



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Yes, the wing is made of a single sheet of 4mm coroplast, with the flutes running spanwise, which eliminates the need for a spar.

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 1:11 PM   
Dave McDonald



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I just weighed a 24" x 24" x 4mm piece of coroplast at 9.2 ounces....which comes out to be 2.3 oz/ft*2 compared to the 3/16" foamboard at 2.16 oz/ft*2.

Therefore a 24x24 coroplast Pizza Box plane with a 6"x6" coroplast vertical stab will weigh a little over 1/2 ounce more than an identical size plane made entirely from 3/16" foamboard. And since you plan on using an electric motor, weight gained from fuel soaking won't be an issue.

I agree with Craig's analysis about unlimited vertical performance with an electric speed 400 motor. But the only electric plane I have is an IFO, so I don't know what a speed 400 is equivalent to in a glow engine.

The HB 15 I originally used had plenty of power to keep the Pizza Box plane airborne, even at less than 1/3 throttle. The reason the HB 15 was replaced with the OS 25 was because the Pizza plane needed more power to maintain extremely high alpha and hovering flight.

If you don't care about hovering and flying around with the nose pointed up at over 75 degrees, I'd be willing to bet that the speed 400 would easily fly a 24"x24" Pizza box flyer, either coroplast or foamboard.

Craig,
This Pizza Box plane reminds me a LOT of the way my IFO flys. They both even seem to require a similar amount of space to fly them in. Only the Pizza Box flyer seems to be even more maneuverable because of the rudder. Would you agree?

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 1:58 PM   
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4mm coroplast is a lot lighter than I thought. Its very close to 3/16" foamboard. The foamboard might flex less though because 3/16"=5mm, but maybe not because of the fluting in coroplast. I don't have an IFO myself, but I have seen the videos on their site and I would agree that they fly similiarly. I've got 45 degrees of throw on my rudder and it is VERY effective and adds a lot to the manueverability.

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 6:52 PM   
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Status: offline 		a speed 400 plane ready to go, is about the same as a 10 size ready to go...
Electric correx planes have been done, take a look at [url]www.mugi.co.uk[/url]
theres a speed 400 version and you can also fly at night, now how cool is that!

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 7:59 PM   
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"extremely high alpha and hovering flight"



Wow!! Can you explain this one!!! (:

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Pizza box flying - 4/25/2002 8:21 PM   
Cactus.



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Status: offline 		simply put, very high angles of attack and prophanging.
not something a plane this simple you would imagine could do, after all, this is why we all buy super dooper fun flys to learn this, maybe we should all get these and learn without the tail and wingtip damage you always get.

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