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flying without your frequency pin paddle - 4/29/2002 9:57 PM   
crash99


 

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Dave wrote.

This Pizza Box plane flys so well I was able to limbo it under our frequency pin board! (with only Tim and myself at the field, I couldn't resist!)

NOW DAVE,

I now see what is missing off the board. Where is your frequency pin? Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm! I think you have been caught!

Now what are these guys going to think about you flying without your frequency pin paddle hanging on #56?

Where was the safty guy at anyway?????????

Crash99

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Busted!!! - 4/30/2002 6:07 AM   
Dave McDonald



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Status: offline 		Crash99,
You're right, I forgot to put my channel 56 frequency pin on the board. But it's a good thing, because otherwise the Pizza Box plane would have hit it as it passed under there.

But to put your mind at ease, I remembered to hang the channel 56 paddle up there right after I made that limbo pass.......and right before Tim tried to fly his Pizza Box plane under it!

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Pizza box flying - 5/1/2002 3:21 PM   
ks221


 

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Status: offline 		i wanna build one of these pizza box flyers, i have 2 engines , an os 15fp or a os 40la, i have mini servos to go with the 15, can someone please give me the dimensions for both these engine sizes, also how far in front of the leading edge does the engine have to be, ho do i determine the correct cg?

please help i really want one of these to fly, i wanna see the look on ppls faces when i pull it out at the field.

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Pizza box flying - 5/1/2002 9:41 PM   
PaulSwany



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From: Bartlett, TN, USA
Status: offline 		If you dig through this post and a previous post on Pizza Box's, you'll find what you need... I built mine from 4 mil coroplast 24" x 24" with a 25 la for power. It has 4" elevon's. I used standard radio gear with the exception of a AAA size battery pack. It weighs in at 2lbs. 4 oz.



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Pizza box flying - 5/2/2002 10:33 AM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Dave,
I finally have my mine half done. Maybe tomorrow I will finish it up and send a pic of it. When coraplast is flashed should it be slightly shiny?

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Flying Pizza Box - 5/2/2002 1:11 PM   
Dave McDonald



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Status: offline 		Ben,
Yes, the coroplast will be slightly shinier after flashing......and might even be slightly wrinkled.

Paul,
Your Flying Pizza Box looks great!!! And I really got a kick out of you using your leftover Stickit pod and boom! Nice touch! I can't wait to hear your thoughts after you've flown it.

UPDATE: While he was visiting relatives in Montezuma Indiana, a fellow coworker brought back a HUGE cardboard pizza delivery box that measures 31" across the inside! Being cardboard, I know it won't last long, but I'm going to get this thing to fly.....even if only once. Planning on using an OS 40FP. Construction has started, but still working out the details.

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Pizza box flying - 5/2/2002 10:58 PM   
PaulSwany



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Status: offline 		Hey Dave... Here's my flight report:

I had to switch out the os 25 max because it had some chunks floating around in it... probably chunks-o-glow plug..... It was eating alot of plugs last time I flew it... Turns out there was no head shim in it anyway..... Might be fixable....

Anyway... Stold the carburator off the os 25 max and put it on an old 25 la.. I hate those air blead carbs they put on the la's...

So off to the field I go... fire her up and off she goes... Winds are pretty bad at 15 mph, but livable... I can't belive it's flying!!! What a trip. Loops are pretty tight and rolls are awesome... I tried to put it up in a hover and it started spining..... Couldn't pull out..... In she goes!! Oh well... Broke some fins on the head of the la.... Cleaned the dirt off the carb and up she goes again for another flight.... This time I take it easy and just do some slow and low stuff... kinda squirley in the wind.... Tried to hover again... And spinned it into the ground again... but no damage this time.....

The 4 mil coro I used was really flexing in the wind.... I need to find a way to stiffen it up.... All in all this was a good experience!

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Pizza box flying - 5/3/2002 10:05 AM   
ben flyn



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It's finished!!!!!!!!!!!! The CG on it is about 4" is that OK? It weighs in a 2lbs exactly! I didn't put a spine or brace that runs from the engine to the tail. I hope it will work. Will fly it tomorrow if the winds are OK.

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Pizza box flying - 5/3/2002 10:08 AM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Here's a bit bigger shot.

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Spin Recovery - 5/3/2002 12:23 PM   
Dave McDonald



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Status: offline 		Ben,
Your Flying Pizza Box looks great!

As far as omitting the "fuselage" stick, I don't think it will matter at all for slow hovering flight. But at higher speeds, the wing may start to flex. And I don't think it will be near as indestructible either. This is just a guess though. The real proof will come when you fly it. Keep us posted! And if it does need a "fuselage" after all, you can easily add it later.

Paul,
It sounds like your Flying Pizza Box flew OK, but not great. Is that right? Or was it just different than you expected?

You mentioned the wing flexing in the wind. Do you mean the plane was bowing in the middle? If you ran your old Stickit boom back to the elevon hingeline, I can't imagine how the wing could flex in the middle. Mine doesn't, and I'm only using a 1/2" square balsa stick compared to your fiberglass boom. But if your boom doesn't go all the way back, then that would explain the flexing. Or did you mean that the wingtips are flexing up and down? In loops and hard turns my wingtips flex up and down, but it hasn't caused any control problems at all.

As far as unintentionally spinning the Pizza Box all the way into the ground.....Been there.......Done that........Many times! But it finally dawned on me that the usual cause of these unintentional spins was making large rudder inputs while the elevator was nearly at neutral. This causes the Pizza plane to enter a violent and tight spin....sometimes upright.....and sometimes inverted. To recover, the first thing you have to determine is whether it's an upright spin, or an inverted spin.

To get out of an Upright spin, apply full UP (yes, UP) elevator control, and add power. If it still won't come out, leave the full UP elevator in there and try adding rudder in the SAME direction as the spin until the Pizza plane transitions from an out-of-control spin into a tight spiraling turn. And once it begins spiralling instead of spinning, you can easily resume flying from there. But if you give it full down elevator in an upright spin, it will continue to spin all the way to the ground.

To get out of an Inverted spin, apply full DOWN (yes, DOWN) elevator control, and add power. If it still won't come out, leave the full DOWN elevator in there and try adding rudder in the SAME direction as the spin until the Pizza plane transitions from an out-of-control spin into a tight spiraling turn. And again, once it begins spiralling instead of spinning, you can easily resume flying from there. But if you give it full up elevator in an inverted spin, it will continue to spin all the way to the ground.

I know this spin recovery technique sounds exactly backwards from a normal plane.....and it is.....but it works on the Flying Pizza Box. And now that I've figured out how to get into and out of these spins, they are fun!

I can't even begin to count the number of times I've dumped my Pizza plane into the ground while playing with it.....or figuring out spin recovery techniques.....or getting mid-aired in combat by Tim's Pizza box. But this thing has proven to be so much more rugged than I'd ever imagined, that I've lost my fear of dumping it into the ground. At the most, it will need a minor repair to get it flying again.....and usually there is no damage at all. It sort of reminds me of flying Realflight G2.....even if you crash, you still have a flyable plane.

But I'll have to admit, that without the "fuselage" to stiffen it up, I don't know if it would have survived everything I've put it through. I'll be curious to hear how Ben's holds up.

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Pizza box flying - 5/3/2002 11:42 PM   
PaulSwany



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Status: offline 		Thanks Dave for the suggestions...

My boom does go all the way back to the elevon's... The pizza box is more twisting that anything and only under hard throttle. I could shove some 3/16" wide pieces of yard stick down a couple of flutes.... But I haven't been flying it very fast anymore... so maybe I can just forget it?

I think your right about rudder input on the out of control spin. soon as I gave it a little rudder to keep the nose in the air in a hover, it did the uncontrolable spin.... I'll try the up/down elevator thing with rudder input if need be.... I just need to try it a little higher up next time

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Pizza box flying - 5/4/2002 1:19 AM   
Craig-RCU



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Status: offline 		Ben,
I think you are going to have control problems without a spine on your PBF. Your servos are way up front and flexing of the wing between the servos and elevons will produce unpredictatble results. First, the flexing will change the camber and pitching moment of the wing sporadicly in flight. Second, the flexing will significantly change the distance from the servo to the elevon hingline while the control rod stays the same length. It seems to me that those two things happening would make your plane all but uncontrolable. But, I could be wrong and it would be an interresting experiment, just keep your distance from the plane on the first flight.

I have been flying my PBF with a ballance point at 23% MAC with good results. On my 24"x24" plane that means a C.G. at 5.5" back from the leading edge. This is close to neutral stability at this point so, you won't need any up-trim on the elevons. 20% MAC (4.8" back from leading edge on a 24"x24" wing) is the most forward C.G. that I'd recommend.

I had some trouble with elevon flutter when I came out of a dive with too much speed. Anyone else? I balanced my elevons now so hopfully that won't happen again. Good luck Ben

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Pizza box flying - 5/4/2002 6:29 AM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Craig,
You are right! It was hand lanched and went directly into the ground. It broke the engine mount and broke lose the servos. Will have to start all over again. I don't know if I will.

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Pizza box flying - 5/5/2002 7:50 AM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Craig,
I just rebuilt my Pizza Box. I had to put the battery close to the tail to get 5.5 CG. Do I need any up-thrust or right-thrust to the engine. I'm using a TT 25 bushing engine. I also used a 5/8" sq. aluminum towel bar for the spline or fuse ( very light), I put it under the wing so I have something to grab onto to throw it.

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Pizza box flying - 5/5/2002 8:21 AM   
Craig-RCU



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Status: offline 		I have no down thrust (or up thrust) and 2 degrees right thrust. If your wing is the same size as mine (24"x24") a C.G. of 5.5" back from the leading edge will work well. Be ready though, elevator will be sensitive. Use about 70% exponential and 50% travel on low rates for the first flights.

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Ben, don't give up yet! - 5/5/2002 11:43 AM   
Dave McDonald



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Status: offline 		Ben,
I'm glad to hear that you didn't give up on your Pizza Box! Once you have it setup correctly, I really think you will enjoy flying it. Your TT bushing 25 should work just fine. Both Tim and myself like a 9x4 prop on our OS bushing 25 engines. I never thought about using an aluminum towel rack for a spine. That's a neat idea!

Although my Pizza Box is still balanced at 4.75" back, I think Craig is on the right track with a more rearward balance. Level inverted flight requires more down elevator than I would prefer. Maybe later this evening, I may move my engine back to get a more rearward CG. But rest assured that your Pizza Box will fly OK at 4.75" back if that's where yours happens to end up.

My engine thrust is set for 0-0, no down thrust, and no right thrust. I haven't experimented with any right thrust on my Pizza Box because of the beam motor mounts.....and I haven't noticed a need for any down thrust at all.

Here are my control throws with the 4.75" CG. With a more rearward CG, you might want to reduce the elevator throws......and then again, maybe not!

Elevator: 1.75" up, 1.75" down. (4" wide elevons)
Aileron: 1.75" up, 1.75" down.
Rudder: 2.5" left, 2.5" right. (rudder is 3.25" wide)
Dual Rates: 60% on Low, but I never use low rates.
Expo: 40% on high rates, 40% on low rates.

I've made a crude drawing of the Flying Pizza Box with Paint Shop Pro that has enough details to scratch build one. But the file is just slightly too large to post here on RCU, so I'm trying to reduce the file size without losing any details. But if I can't, then I'll upload the file to my website and post a link to it.

(Craig, I stumbled onto your thread about the lift vectors on a horizontal stab. Fascinating reading!!!)

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Flying Pizza Box Plans - 5/5/2002 2:38 PM   
Dave McDonald



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Status: offline 		These are crude, but here are the basic plans to build a Flying Pizza Box. If I missed something important, please let me know.

(For some reason, the picture doesn't show up below, but the link still works to show the plans. They are a GIF file.)

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Pizza box flying - 5/5/2002 7:35 PM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Thanks Dave for all your work on the drawings they're GREAT! I'm sitting here 5am in the morning wondering how my Pizza will fly. In about 4 hours the maden flight will begin. I'm still having trouble, thinking it will fly after my first flight. What I think happened, was when it was tossed, the wing flexed (without the fuse rod attached) and didn't allow the elevators to work with FULL throws. It just made a big cruve, BAM, right into the ground! I'm thinking of tossing it lower to the ground so it does the same thing the damage will be minimal. MAYBE THIS IS TOO MUCH NEGATIVE THINKING!

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PBF - 5/6/2002 3:55 AM   
Razor_Sharp



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Status: offline 		I couldn't resist. This is my attempt at a PBF. I found the sign beside the road. Everything else, I had lying around. The engine is a Magnum GP .40. The aluminum is from a Hobbico Sturdy Birdie. It makes a great backbone. Standard servos snap down in it.

I haven't flown it yet. I hope it flies well.

Weight came out at 3#'s exactly.

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More Pictures - 5/6/2002 3:56 AM   
Razor_Sharp



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Status: offline 		Another view.

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PBF - 5/6/2002 3:57 AM   
Razor_Sharp



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Last One - 5/6/2002 3:58 AM   
Razor_Sharp



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Pizza box flying - 5/6/2002 5:35 AM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Dave & Craig,
IT FLIES IT FLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW!!!!!
THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I first used HIGH rates with 5 1/2" CG WOW was it touchy! I couldn't get a loop out of it! It didn't want to fly level so I switched to low rates, and still too touchy. I flew it for 15 mins and landed it tail first then the prop stopped no broken props and ready to fly again. I moved up the battery 2 inches and MUCH BETTER!!! It CGed at 5 1/8". It flew level, VERY STABLE, and would do very tight loops! VERY enjoyable to fly! I then passed my radio around to anyone who wanted to fly it, and boy did everyone have a good time!
Thanks again for all your help! What a fun day!!!!!

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Pizza box flying - 5/6/2002 5:40 AM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Improvement pics of my Pizza.
Here's the alum. 5/8" sq. tubing bought at ACE hardware for 2.99 weighed only 2/3 of an oz. Used for the stiffner or fuse.

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Pizza box flying - 5/6/2002 5:48 AM   
ben flyn



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Status: offline 		Here is the over-all pic showing the battery placement for the perfect CG of 5 1/8". The overall weight is 2.1lbs. I did have problems with the engine running too lean and would not run vertical I think I will get a standard (non air-bleed) carb on my TT25. It is also under-powered at this alitude to. Maybe the new carb will help!

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