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what killed our tank crews? - 7/10/2010 6:17 PM   
pattoncommander



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What killed our tank crews?
Looking at tank development through the years, it is very obvious that the design of the front slope or glacis plate has been a major negative factor in the US tank design. Sloped armor is the best design to allow an enemy round to skip off and be deflected. However, angled armor must be kept clear of any obstruction which would impede the movement of the striking round. When one looks at the front of the Sherman, one cannot help but wonder if any consideration was given to the armor or protection of the crew. First off, even with variations of glacis plate angles in Shermans models, one notices the ridge at the top of the transmission casing, which forms a lip that is more than sufficient to impede the deflection of an enemy round, giving it more preponderance to punch through rather than deflect.
Secondly is the gun travel lock in the center is a great device for stopping an enemy strike. The gun travel lock on the bow was totally unnecessary as the Sherman, Pershing and M-46 all had a travel lock on the inside. It was mounted to the turret roof and swung down to engage a lug on the top of the recoil cylinder and operated by the gunner or loader. For rail transport, the Shermans with the longer 76mm gun could have simply traversed the gun over the back deck as in M-26, 46 and all later tanks.
The bow machine gun is another weak spot and was eliminated as of the M-48. The loss of the 5th crew member was direly missed as it took away one man for maintenance, handling ammo and guard as well as the loss of the front cal 30 MG. This gun was critical in many conflicts where the turret was traversed to the side and enemy troops attacked from the front, as well as providing much more firepower when the tank was attacking a position. When the tank was in a stationary position, the bow gun was dismounted and the bow gunner served as dismounted security. Nevertheless, the gun position did present a weak spot in the armor and had to go. The loaders “pistol port” on Sherman, Pershings and the M-46 presented the same problem and subsequently removed from all later designs.
All the other fixtures on the front glacis plate were as much a hazard as they were helpful. On the Sherman, the headlamps, blackout drive and horn were protected by heavy brush guards which presented the same “skid brakes” to obstruct the smooth deflection of an enemy round. The M-26 design was somewhat improved in moving these items to the side or on the track guard (fender). The major problem was still the two tow hook mounts, which contributed to the loss of the first Pershing in Germany. The M-47 had a much cleaner front slope with the ventilator blower moved to the turret over hang but still had the tow hooks on the glacis plate. As of the M-48 and M-41, these were moved to the lower section.
The M-26, 45, 46 and M-47 all had the same escape hatches under the driver and bow gunner seats. When the turret was traversed about 45 degrees, the entire crew could exit without being exposed to enemy MG fire. However, these hatches were positioned at an angle toward the first road wheel and only an inch in thickness. It was learned in Korea, that when a tank hit a mine, the hatches tended to cause injury or death to whoever was seated above them. For this reason, the driver was moved the center, bow gun was eliminated and the lower armor as well as escape hatch substantially increased in thickness.
Armor design, proven by Russia was ignored by the USA. Although the T-34, which appeared in 1940 showed the advantages of sloped armor and was subsequently copied in the design of the German Panther and King Tiger, The USA did nothing to change the design of the armor on the Sherman. It would have been a relatively simple matter to change the side armor on later Sherman models and provide a slope to afford much more crew protection. With only 2 ½ inches on the side, it would have given the Sherman an approximate 3 or more inches of armor where the ammo was stowed.
The M-48 design was a totally radical change in American tank production. I personally am convinced that the change from M-47 to M-48 design was copied from the Russian JS-III which appeared in 1945. The M-48 provided much better crew protection although the added 4 tons and extended track width from 23 to 28 inches over the M-47 with no change in engine or transmission robbed the M-48 of maneuverability and speed. The M-60 was better, however all the positive points of the new gun and fire control were British and rest of the tank was simply much too big and clumsy in spite of the new diesel engine.
The M-1 Abrams is a totally different world in armor design. Maybe we have learned from past mistakes, but the entire tank is totally new and state of the art, with apparently no cost spared in developing a very fine, world class tank. Everything on the tank has been researched and developed to perfection. The new armor alone is the one major factor is combat survivability and combat experience has proven the Abrams is now one of the best tanks in the world and without doubt, the finest tank the USA has ever produced. Maybe we have finally learned, but at what cost in trying to save money.

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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 7/12/2010 9:50 AM   
thecommander


 

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Hi Bill,

"Jersey" Bob here from Danville. As always I appreciate your input and insight. I often wonder what WW II would have been like if the USA has listended to visionary inventers such as Walter Christie, tank designer and Robert Goddard, rocket pioneer. The Russians and Werner VonBraun sure did find thier contibutions noteworthy. The T34 and such, sure do resemble Christie's designs. It seems that the bosses just to want input from the people who live or operate these machines every day. Even the Germans had these troubles. After all if they put into production the Mark V tank before the Mark VI the story of the Panzers would have read much diffrenlty that it does today.

Thank you for your service and please keep the armor stories comming....Bob

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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 7/22/2010 1:46 AM   
pattoncommander



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Hi Bob,
Yeah, that's been a thought for many years. Had the USA taken Christie's design, the T-34 may well have been an M-34. Also had our horse cavalry officers used a little forsight, our tactics also would have developed beyond the 1930s. Christie took his designs to England and Russia, where they were welcomed. Look at the T-34, British Covenanter, Cromwell and Crusader....all pure Christie and fast.

Then what Germany did in copying the T-34 design and coming up with the Panther and KT. Had the USA used a little bit of insight, we could have very easilly improved the Sherman armor following the T-34 and angling the 2.5 side armor out to 45 degee and given the Sherman crews an additonal inch of armor in the most vital area. Instead, we plodded along with the same flat, straight "armor" which killed a lot of our guys. Same goes with the front plate of the Sherman, angled sure, but so much junk on it to deflect the round into instead of away from the tank. Lots of things get screwed up when things must go fast. Could you immagine a Tiger's 4 inch frontal armor sloped 45 degrees....giving it the equivilent of about 7 inches. Had the secret basis of the Panther design not been hidden from Hitler and he rejected it it, there may have been no Panther or KT. Man, that would kill Danville....half the tanks there are KTs.

Bill



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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 7/23/2010 9:15 AM   
BiggTony



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Bill,

You know, there's another factor to consider. While speculation of changes in hindsight would have surely saved more U.S. Tanker's lives in this scenario, if only our powers that be improved the inferior design of the said tanks. What also might be considered is the cause and effect had the said improvements been implemented. While, this may not have changed the overall result in the ending of war. Surely this would have prompted the Nazi Germans to create more deadly vehicles, perhaps changing the battlefield as we now know it to have been. 
 
To think what the Nazi Germans were creating without cause for in history and what they may be forced to create to counter, in a war where the US tanks were implementing improved/borrowed armor designs in this scenario, the thought is spine chilling. Perhaps,the death toll wouldn't have been that drastically reduced as we would like to assume.
 
Maybe this gave the Nazi Germans the false sense of superiority and we all know that leads to ones demise.

Very nice write up by the way!

Tony


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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 7/27/2010 2:27 PM   
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It’s one thing to have a better armoured Sherman to help reduce deaths but you also have the leadership to deploy the tanks correctly, Germany and Russia before the war were developing tactics far beyond the Allies who were still deploying cavalry with horses, in 1939 the Char B and Matilda II were far better armoured than the German Panzer II, III and 38T better tactics won the day and saved more German lives

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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 12/20/2012 11:56 PM   
bigmalmd


 

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The U.S.Army DID consider adopting Christie's tank in the 1930's. However Christie wasn't only interested in selling the army tanks..he wanted the army to adopt his doctrine of armored warfare as well. He wanted nothing but his lightly-armored fast tanks on the battlefield,dashing through the enemies FEBA (Forward Edge of the Battlefield)and destroying the command and control and supplies in the enemies rear. When the army said no thanks Christie threw a fit and began selling his idea overseas. BTW the Russian T-34 did NOT use a Christie suspension. The BT series(BT-1 through BT-7)did use it. The T-32 tank protype used a modified form of Christies suspension....and the T-34 modified it even further.


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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 12/23/2012 12:27 AM   
pattoncommander



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right, I should have clarified...developed from the Christie. The BTs were good tanks, like all the 35 and 38Ts Germany confiscated and used..just too small.

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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 12/23/2012 4:09 AM   
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The Russian Army used horse-mounted cavalry in their invasion of Japanese-held Manchuria in August 1945.The Red Army did not disbanded their last cavalry units until 1948.


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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 12/23/2012 5:41 PM   
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And the German Army had 6 cavalry divisions as of February 1945. The cavalrymen fought dismounted using their horses only to reach the edge of the battlefield.


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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 12/23/2012 5:55 PM   
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Personally I feel that Walther Christie was a bit of a nut...he had many wild ideas that the technology of the day could not support. He spent a great deal of his time and money trying to get various countries to finance and build his flying tank. The Russians,who were enamored with any idea that Christie had,liked the idea and tried to make it work. The flying tank failed miserably.


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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 12/24/2012 12:06 AM   
pattoncommander



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Looking back at the screwed up history, it's surprising that the US didn't lock onto Christie's invention, then once having it, did what they wanted, (as with many inventions taken over by the military) since field tactics were changing every day. The TD forces were sadly set up based on a failed doctrine of countering mass armor attacks, which Germany did not employ after the Polish campaign and only used in covering vast areas of steppes in Barbarosa. We could have developed much better tanks with a lower silhouette without stickling to the volute spring systems.

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RE: what killed our tank crews? - 12/24/2012 5:51 PM   
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In my opinion it would have been a complete disaster for the U.S.Army to field any tank made by Walter Christie. Christie's tanks were very fast,but very thinly armored and very cramped inside. And if you think that the M4 Sherman tank was a Ronsen or Tommycooker,then the Christie tank would have been the Volcano or the Inferno. However,the use of some of his ideas on tank suspensions might have been useful.


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