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When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/13/2010 8:26 PM

Steve Steinbring

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I've be flying R/C gliders about a year now in flat land terrain. Have been catching good thermals on a regular basis, but still have a lot to learn. My question is under what conditions do you add additional payload to the airplanes gross weight?

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/13/2010 11:44 PM

Fleet

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Flying in Southwest Oklahoma, winds were typically well above 10mph. Usually in the 15 to 20 during peak afternoon.

Thermals there , were tuff to keep together as most thermals were spit into pieces by the wind. That written, one could travel from updrafts to updrafts but to do so , you need smash. Smash = kinetic energy. Ballasting up at the CG would enable me to penetrate the windage that often would not allow one to fly back to the starting point.

Fun aspect was launching with high starts and pitch up and the plane would streatch the bungee out again but to come off the hook, I would pitch over, line would zoom me forward and the resulting sound of 'twang' meant you were off.

In light conditions, I don't see any need unless you want speed through a time trap.

Ray W.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/14/2010 3:59 AM

BMatthews

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A lot will depend on your model and its ability to punch upwind. When you find that you need to push in more downtrim to the point where it begins to look like it's in a shallow dive instead of just gliding fast then you're ready to add some ballast.

When you commit to adding the ballast there's no point is mincing around. Add enough to raise the wing loading by a good 2 oz/sq foot. That'll provide a solid change in how the model flies without totally ruining the thermalling ability. Anything less and you're just not going to see the level of change that you need to deal with a wind that is already preventing a decent upwind performance to allow you to get back to the landing area. With the added ballast you will be able to follow the thermals downwind further. But if you do this be sure that you're getting more height out of the thermal than having to punch back upwind is going to cost you. The ballast will help but it's not a total cureall.

From there it's up to you to practice in the sort of conditions that require ballast. The model's new speed will require almost complete re-training to fully use the new flight charactaristics to their optimum. Full size gliders have the benifit of charts, graphs and full factory testing that tells them what the optimum flight speeds are for each wing loading. But we do not have that sort of ability to test and record our model's performance curves with different weights. So it comes down to flying in these rather nasty conditions and to try, observe and learn how to fly with the new wing loading and how best to deal with stronger winds.

When you get the hang of it flying in stormy conditions CAN be highly invigorating at the same time that it is producing lots of stress...

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/14/2010 4:40 PM

Fleet

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"highly invigorating at the same time that it is producing lots of stress... "

I concur and ain't it a gas?

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/14/2010 6:30 PM

aeajr

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Adding ballast, usually near the CG and usually in the fuselage, has two benefits.

It adds stability by increasing the central mass of the plane. This has a dapening effect that can be helpful in gusty conditions.

The second is that it increases the wing loading of the aircraft which naturally increases the glide speed without requiring down elevator trim.

Usually this is done when wind speeds rise and/or when the wind gets very gusty. I like to use ballast in my gliders, but not typically in the amounts suggested by BMathews.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BMatthews

A lot will depend on your model and its ability to punch upwind. When you find that you need to push in more downtrim to the point where it begins to look like it's in a shallow dive instead of just gliding fast then you're ready to add some ballast.

When you commit to adding the ballast there's no point is mincing around. Add enough to raise the wing loading by a good 2 oz/sq foot. That'll provide a solid change in how the model flies without totally ruining the thermalling ability. Anything less and you're just not going to see the level of change that you need to deal with a wind that is already preventing a decent upwind performance to allow you to get back to the landing area. With the added ballast you will be able to follow the thermals downwind further. But if you do this be sure that you're getting more height out of the thermal than having to punch back upwind is going to cost you. The ballast will help but it's not a total cureall.

snip

I will readily say that you are far more experienced than I and are likely a much better pilot than I.

I have seen this 2oz/sq ft number quoted before but really have not found the recommendation to be valid based on today's ligher wing loaded aircraft.

For example, to get my AVA up 2oz/sq ft I would have to ballast it up over 35% of the plane's weight. I consider that pretty excessive under all but the most extreme conditions. On a 45 ounce plane that would be over 16 ounces. To go from 45 ounces to 61 onces in one shot with no option for intermediate steps seems very inflexible.

To take up my XP5 DLG would mean I would have to add almost 3 oz to a 9.5 ounce plane.

Can you provide more insight around this 2oz recommendation? I find this a very big jump and typically don't see pilots ballasting up at this rate. .

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/14/2010 6:41 PM

Fleet

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Many a times, I wished I could ballast up my Drifter in Oklahoma.

Ray W.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/14/2010 7:07 PM

Steve Steinbring

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Thanks for the discussion it puts me in the learning curve.

If I'm reading this correct the addition of ballast is based upon the area of the wing and not the gross weight to wing area ratio?

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/16/2010 2:27 AM

BMatthews

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Aeajr, if you are getting meaningful performance improvements from smaller amounts then there is certainly nothing at all wrong with that. It's just that with the models I've flown I found that I was able to "tough it out" up to a point. But once I looked up and tested the air with a wet finger with a thought to adding ballast things were so bad that going with anything less just would not provide the kick the model needed to deal with the conditions.

Besides I actually think adding 16 oz to an AVA isn't out of the question at all if the conditions are blustery enough to justify it. But if your local conditions are such that you find bumping it up by 8 oz to jump the loading by 1 oz/sq ft optimizes things for you then great. Likely I SHOULD add ballast in smaller steps. But I don't find that the actual flying is that difficult with the 2 oz per jump. The big mental shift is to remember not to let it get too slow and mushy since the stall speed goes up. But in such crazy conditions I'm more than happy to keep the model speeding along and the thought of slowing down to a slow near stall speed is the LAST thing on my mind. Typically the turbulence in such conditions would result in a sudden wind shift and a stall if I did try to slow down. In fact considering that I wait too long to add ballast the addition becomes a welcome asset. Well.... other than trying to carry it to the launch point....

I'm reminded of my one and only time at the US Nationals back in '89 when Mark Lawicki (sp?) won the unlimited event with his Rubber Ducky. Conditions that day were horrendous with about a 25 to 30 mph cross wind to the only winch direction that was possible. Following thermals were out of the question but a line of trees bordering the field was providing a VERY nice slope lift that would hold the models up for the durations needed IF you could dive the model off the launch from the pitiful height to be had from the cross wind conditions and make it OVER the trees and out into the wave effect. Once there the models crabbed back and forth until landing time. To land was a case of a couple of higher angle crabbed angle crossings to drift the model back into the back rotor and try to smoothly slam it onto the ground. But a LOT of the folks were bombing out either by not being able to penetrate upwind well enough to get over the trees or by being blown well out of position and totally missing their landings due to the back rotor effect. It was like a scene from some model sailplaner's version of Dante's Inferno....

Mark handled all this with aplomb and made it seem easy. Later I was talking to him and told him that he made it look too easy and what his secret was. He just grinned and said "65 oz of ballast. I would have added more but there wasn't room." Total all up weight for his 3'ish meter aileron bagged glass ship with all that ballast was up around 130oz as I recall. Words failed me as my jaw hit the dirt at the numbers.

So.... How heavy is your AVA again? ....

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/16/2010 2:37 AM

BMatthews

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Steinbring

Thanks for the discussion it puts me in the learning curve.

If I'm reading this correct the addition of ballast is based upon the area of the wing and not the gross weight to wing area ratio?

It's based on increasing the wing loading by some fraction. So it's related to BOTH the wng area AND the gross weight to wing area ratio just because both of these items relate to the wing loading.

Something that also needs to be kept in mind is that different sizes of model and different airfoils will respond to a rise in the wing loading in different ways. Given this and given aeajr's findings with his Ava perhaps I was a bit over the top in suggesting a 2 oz/sq-ft jump at a minimum. But by all means do not be afraid to experiment with 2 oz or more change in the loading with any model so you can find out what the effects are and get used to how it handles the extra weight. All good things to know ahead of time instead of waiting until near thunderstorm like conditions to try wing loading modifications.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 7/17/2010 4:15 AM

aeajr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BMatthews

Aeajr, if you are getting meaningful performance improvements from smaller amounts then there is certainly nothing at all wrong with that. It's just that with the models I've flown I found that I was able to "tough it out" up to a point. But once I looked up and tested the air with a wet finger with a thought to adding ballast things were so bad that going with anything less just would not provide the kick the model needed to deal with the conditions.

Besides I actually think adding 16 oz to an AVA isn't out of the question at all if the conditions are blustery enough to justify it. But if your local conditions are such that you find bumping it up by 8 oz to jump the loading by 1 oz/sq ft optimizes things for you then great. Likely I SHOULD add ballast in smaller steps. But I don't find that the actual flying is that difficult with the 2 oz per jump. The big mental shift is to remember not to let it get too slow and mushy since the stall speed goes up. But in such crazy conditions I'm more than happy to keep the model speeding along and the thought of slowing down to a slow near stall speed is the LAST thing on my mind. Typically the turbulence in such conditions would result in a sudden wind shift and a stall if I did try to slow down. In fact considering that I wait too long to add ballast the addition becomes a welcome asset. Well.... other than trying to carry it to the launch point....

I'm reminded of my one and only time at the US Nationals back in '89 when Mark Lawicki (sp?) won the unlimited event with his Rubber Ducky. Conditions that day were horrendous with about a 25 to 30 mph cross wind to the only winch direction that was possible. Following thermals were out of the question but a line of trees bordering the field was providing a VERY nice slope lift that would hold the models up for the durations needed IF you could dive the model off the launch from the pitiful height to be had from the cross wind conditions and make it OVER the trees and out into the wave effect. Once there the models crabbed back and forth until landing time. To land was a case of a couple of higher angle crabbed angle crossings to drift the model back into the back rotor and try to smoothly slam it onto the ground. But a LOT of the folks were bombing out either by not being able to penetrate upwind well enough to get over the trees or by being blown well out of position and totally missing their landings due to the back rotor effect. It was like a scene from some model sailplaner's version of Dante's Inferno....

Mark handled all this with aplomb and made it seem easy. Later I was talking to him and told him that he made it look too easy and what his secret was. He just grinned and said "65 oz of ballast. I would have added more but there wasn't room." Total all up weight for his 3'ish meter aileron bagged glass ship with all that ballast was up around 130oz as I recall. Words failed me as my jaw hit the dirt at the numbers.

So.... How heavy is your AVA again? ....

I see why I have had a different experience than you. I tend to add ballast in smaller steps because I add it sooner. For each of my planes I will probably go up in 2 or 3 steps.

As for flying in 25 to 30 mph winds, oh yes I would be bulking up. For my Supra I have a 9 oz, ( maybe 12 to 15 mph, and a a 14 oz that might take me to 20 mph. Normally I would not fly in winds higher than that. I do have a brass segmented ballast package that can go upto 35 oz taking the Supra to about 99 oz. I flew it that way once Just to try it. Would probably be perfect for 30 mph winds.

But maybe i should experiment with higher loads.

Thanks for the insights.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 11/2/2010 6:36 AM

skater_719

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Clue me in on whats fun about flying in stormy conditions? Just the wind, or are there a lot of thermals. Just caught my first thermal yesterday, completely specked out, and a 22 minute flight, only came down because I felt like I was pushing my luck. I am now considering selling all my IC planes, never thought gliding would be so fun.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 11/2/2010 1:53 PM

aeajr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: skater_719

Clue me in on whats fun about flying in stormy conditions? Just the wind, or are there a lot of thermals. Just caught my first thermal yesterday, completely specked out, and a 22 minute flight, only came down because I felt like I was pushing my luck. I am now considering selling all my IC planes, never thought gliding would be so fun.

I don't think we have been talking about stormy conditions. I think we have been talking about wind.

So, which is more fun, sitting at home looking a the trees wave in the wind, or being comfortable and confident enough to fly? I use ballast to extend the conditions in which I am comfortable flying.

There are always thermals.

You can also catch wave lift when there is a lot of wind. This is something like slope soaring but is based on things like tree lines or buildings that cause a pressure wave that you can surf.

And, if you are a contest pilot, as I am, you want to be prepared for windy conditions. When I drive 4 to 8 hours to fly in a contest I am not going to let 15 to 20 mph winds ruin my weekend.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 11/3/2010 12:13 AM

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Soaring is much like fly fishing. You just don't know what is out there until you cast your "bait" and play an area of the "river" passing by you. If one spot isn't any good you pull 'er back wizz the hook around your head (push the trim lever ahead for a good cruise speed) and cast out to another part of the river. As you've seen flying a glider is easy as far as the flight skills go. But to do well at actually soaring is a thrill that never does go away. As you gain more flying time and learn more of the mysteries of lift hidden in the passing air you'll find that there's a number of variations on lift other than a classic thermal.

MOST of this thread is about how to deal with less than storm conditions. That story about the 89 Nats being a bit of an exception. If such conditions were to come up at any club field the flyers would have packed up and left a good 5 to 10 mph of wind earlier. But as aeajr says if you drive long distances and the contest management is willing to hold the event then chutzpah, peer pressure and the sense of a personal challenge pretty much forces us to put plane to air if we think we have a good chance of controlling the model. Ballasting is one tool to aid the flyer. The other is adapting our flying decisions to deal with the model and our decisions on how we move in the air with it. Obviously the first thing that comes to mind is that we can't follow any thermals downwind as far and still get back. Or if we do the lift had better be so good that we're high enough to allow for a glide path that is almost a dive to generate the ground speed needed to get back.

Another way of looking at it is that whenever we fly a glider we are at the bottom of a glide path "funnel" that defines the allowable volume of sky that we can fly the model in and still get back to land by the pilot. The surface of this funnel extending up and away from us is the minimum angle needed to be able to get the model back to the field. Pass below the limits of this funnel and you'll be walking to the landing spot. Stay within the funnel and all is well. But this funnel is not a constant shape. On a dead calm day it is circular and extends equally out in all directions. In windy conditions the funnel inclines upwind and becomes an oval shape out to the sides. It limits the area we can fly in based on the weather and our knowledge of how each model reacts to different flying conditions. We learn where and how each model's funnel of flight varies by flying it in a variety of conditions and basing the location and shape of the funnel on this practicing. To best use the model in contest flying we need to know where the funnels sides are and practicing in conditions where you'd rather pack up and go home is something that serious contest pilots must do if they wish to do well. And part of this is learning how ballasting affects the limits of the funnels for different models. And the only way to learn this is to fly in conditions where you're going to be the last one still in the air. Or in with the select group of "crazies" that don't know when to pack up and go home...

I don't fly in contests at the moment but I still like to fly in a variety of conditions. Because I'm not competing for fame and fortune the angles of the "funnels" for my planes are kept a little more conservatively steep than they would be if I were still competing.

Having said this I have flown in some very crazy storm conditions and it wasn't even for a contest. It's actually hellishly fun, a description that isn't far off the mark often as not

The air is highly dynamic and with some intuition and practice you can actually dynamic soar for quite a while using the wind velocity gusts acting against the momemtum and inertia of the model. It's nerve wracking work but if you pull it off it results in flights that you'll remember in fine detail throughout the rest of your life.

I've been out in such things twice with good succes once and passable succes the other. Despite the cold conditions in both cases my armpits were drenched from nervous sweat from the concentration. The best flight was timed by someone sitting in their car to escape the conditions for a 20 minute flight. The model never went further downwind than where I wss standing at the orignal high start release point, never went further upwind than the high start stake and varied from as little as 15 feet to 200 feet multiple times during the flight. I was all but ready to collapse from the stress of concentrating and rowing the sticks after I landed. But at the same time I was so totally invigorated at that style of flying that I had a perma-grin all day long. Oddly enough the wife had NO IDEA of why I was so stoked and couldn't stop talking about it....

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 11/3/2010 2:40 AM

aeajr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BMatthews

snip...

Having said this I have flown in some very crazy storm conditions and it wasn't even for a contest. It's actually hellishly fun, a description that isn't far off the mark often as not The air is highly dynamic and with some intuition and practice you can actually dynamic soar for quite a while using the wind velocity gusts acting against the momemtum and inertia of the model. It's nerve wracking work but if you pull it off it results in flights that you'll remember in fine detail throughout the rest of your life.

I've been out in such things twice with good succes once and passable succes the other. Despite the cold conditions in both cases my armpits were drenched from nervous sweat from the concentration. The best flight was timed by someone sitting in their car to escape the conditions for a 20 minute flight. The model never went further downwind than where I wss standing at the orignal high start release point, never went further upwind than the high start stake and varied from as little as 15 feet to 200 feet multiple times during the flight. I was all but ready to collapse from the stress of concentrating and rowing the sticks after I landed. But at the same time I was so totally invigorated at that style of flying that I had a perma-grin all day long. Oddly enough the wife had NO IDEA of why I was so stoked and couldn't stop talking about it....

As BMatthews said, normally we don't do this stuff, but there have been times.

My war story was the weekend of an Eastern Soaring League contest on Long Island in September. We had 15 mph winds with gusts to almost 30, measured at the field.   On day 2 the gusts were so strong it actually blew over the Porta San.   Many planes were damaged on launch, but the contest went on.   Planes were dropped into the trees, and the contest when on.

It rained and we stopped, but when the rain passed the contest went on.

We had about 35 pilots registerd. On Saturday morning, 25 showed up, in the rain and we waited for the rain to pass.   What shocked me was I think we had 22 on Sunday and the conditions were worse. That was when the out house went over.   The three who did not fly I believe were guys who had no more planes to fly.

And the contest went on. I think we flew 6 rounds on Saturday ( with rain stops) and 4 on Sunday ( with rain stops)

We had 6 novice pilots flying R/E 2M woodies and foamies. And they ALL finished the contest on Saturday! I was so proud of them.

We have been talking about that one for years. THAT was when I really came to understand the value of ballast.   My prmary plane was 3.1 meters and 60 ounces and no way to ballast the plane.  I flew all but the first round with my back-up plane which was 2.9M and 82 ounces. No need for ballast. This one can fly in a hurricane.

It was scary but it was fun! But I don't look to do it again any time soon.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 11/3/2010 11:25 AM

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Aeajr, it sounds like a scene from a model version of Dante's Inferno....

But hey, no one ever called us SMART after all

Another little war story... I was at one of the Boeing Hawks electric model fly ins that they held back in the early 90's. The day started nicely but soon the clouds and wind moved in. For some CRAZY reason I put up my attempt for longest duration of the day at the beginning of the stormy winds with no real hope of doing much of anything. As it turned out I caught a thermal which was much like an express elevator. I couldn't follow it far downwind but I did get about 4 turns and 300 feet of gain from it... yeah, it was a crazy corkscrew. I flew back upwind and noticed that the model wasn't coming down. The winds picked up and I was basically S turning back and forth with about 20 degrees to the wind one way and then a 40 degree turn to come back on the other 20 degree "tack". What we figure happened was that the strong winds created a wave lift effect off the 300'ish foot ridge to the west where the highway is located. I was in it and no one else was able to fight the wind and climb hard enough to get into it. I got the longest flight of the day at 90 minutes. I was rowing the sticks so often to deal with the turbulence that I was beginning to fear for the 200mah separate flight gear battery. After landing I would not have put it up again on a bet...

Oddly enough the squal line passed and it was calm and sunny at the awards presentation about an hour and a half later.

Oh, and in this case the 2 meter model came with built in ballast at 52 oz weight courtesy of the old generation brushed motor and heavy nicad battery packs we used back then.

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RE: When to add additional weight or payload? - 11/3/2010 3:34 PM

aeajr

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Great story BMatthews. I have had similar experiences.

Today, I would fly my Supra. Normally it is about 64 ouncess on a 3.4M wing. It floats well but also penetrates well. However when the wind comes up I just add ballast. Typically the 9 oz or 14 oz stick is enough. But I can keep flying which is the whole point of having the ability to use ballast.

I have since worked out ballast methods for almost all of my planes. When I go to the field to fly, I want to fly. And I don't want a "little" wind to keep me home. After all you can get MONSTER launches with a little wind.

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