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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 6:39 AM   
captinjohn


 

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 6:58 AM   
av8tor1977



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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 7:05 AM   
captinjohn


 

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 3:34 PM   
a1pcfixer



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Status: offline 		Gary,

A couple ideas to increase prop-to-ground clearance on your U.S.

Larger dia wheels

Create a block of wood to put between the fuse & the L-G (1/2" or thicker)
Make it about 3/8" longer in front of & behind L-G. Harden the groove the L-G sits in, then when finished, drill some lightening holes in the L-G groove.
For just a few ounces weight you'll be able to increase your prop-to-ground clearance.

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 5:04 PM   
somiss1


 

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Status: offline 		I think that,as more people run this engine, that we will have good choices for airplanes for this engine. Right now, it's a run what ya brung situation. I also think that it is going to be put in airplanes that are not exactly what people think that the engine could handle. It's all about the way you want the airplane to fly-pattern, 3D, sport are just for cruising around. The beauty of this is the cheap operating cost. No more 20-30% nitro fuel or waiting for the hobby shop to open in order to buy fuel. And, you don't need $130 servos!

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 5:32 PM   
ghoffman


 

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 6:19 PM   
ahicks


 

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Status: offline 		Maybe this engine, and others like it that are sure to follow, will drive some prop technology that may help what is sure to become a problem in planes being used with them - ground clearance? I get the 3 blade idea that helps out here, but seems like whenever dealing with those, I'm paying a certain very noticable performance penalty?

Jus thinkin....

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 7:39 PM   
guinnb



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks

Maybe this engine, and others like it that are sure to follow, will drive some prop technology that may help what is sure to become a problem in planes being used with them - ground clearance? I get the 3 blade idea that helps out here, but seems like whenever dealing with those, I'm paying a certain very noticable performance penalty?

Jus thinkin....



Our problem with model engines and 3-4 blade props is their RPMS. We all know they look cool but the problem is the props start hitting the turbulence/wake of the preceding prop and loose efficiency rapidly. Most scale planes only turn 3-4 blade props up to 2700 rpm or so although turbo props might go beyond this a bit (been a while since I've flown a King Air , mostly of my time is in a Bonanza with a McCauley 3-blade prop driven by an IO 550). Maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in here....

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 8:47 PM   
airraptor


 

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Status: offline 		The reason full scale planes run a 3,4,5,6,7,8 blade prop is ground clearence. They have alot of hp in most planes and to run a two blade prop would require a large 2 blade prop. If they could get the ground clearence to fit the prop then they would run in to problems with the tips going super sonic.

You should never fly a 3 or 4 blade prop on a model unless need the clearence on the plane, ie: ground or prop to fuselage (multi engine).

Some model planes run them to keep noise and rpm down when the have alot of hp that can be wasted and helps in keeping a constant speed in the down lines (pattern/imac).

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 9:05 PM   
NM2K


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: airraptor

The reason full scale planes run a 3,4,5,6,7,8 blade prop is ground clearence. They have alot of hp in most planes and to run a two blade prop would require a large 2 blade prop. If they could get the ground clearence to fit the prop then they would run in to problems with the tips going super sonic.

You should never fly a 3 or 4 blade prop on a model unless need the clearence on the plane, ie: ground or prop to fuselage (multi engine).

Some model planes run them to keep noise and rpm down when the have alot of hp that can be wasted and helps in keeping a constant speed in the down lines (pattern/imac).




Or, they could keep the small diameter prop, but increase its pitch instead of going even larger with the diameter or adding additional blades. People use large diameter/low pitch props for 3D because their engines won't pull extra pitch, not because extra pitch won't move more air.


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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 9:45 PM   
ahicks


 

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Status: offline 		Isn't using a lot of pitch like that kinda like using a 3 or more bladed prop? You're controlling the load on the engine sure enough, but at what cost to efficiency? We're going to the time/trouble/expense to put this extra power on board, only to toss a (large?) percentage of the extra power overboard because we can't handle it with the current prop designs? (Like one of today's computers running Dos 4.0?)

To illustrate my point maybe, is this not like putting a 10-12" pitch prop on a Cub? We've controlled the load on the engine, but what are the chances of using the the speed envelope a 10-12" prop was designed to run in with this airframe?

My point is it would be nice if propeller technology were to improve/advance to the point we could hold efficiency and reasonable ground clearance without resorting to high pitch or 3+ blades, or way too tall to appear scale gear. It's not just this 20cc engine either. The 25% planes w/30-35cc engines are running into the same thing - only to a little lesser degree. What got me started with this was visualizing an 18" prop on a .60 size airframe. FWIW



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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/4/2010 10:16 PM   
NM2K


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks

Isn't using a lot of pitch like that kinda like using a 3 or more bladed prop? You're controlling the load on the engine sure enough, but at what cost to efficiency? We're going to the time/trouble/expense to put this extra power on board, only to toss a (large?) percentage of the extra power overboard because we can't handle it with the current prop designs? (Like one of today's computers running Dos 4.0?)

To illustrate my point maybe, is this not like putting a 10-12'' pitch prop on a Cub? We've controlled the load on the engine, but what are the chances of using the the speed envelope a 10-12'' prop was designed to run in with this airframe?

My point is it would be nice if propeller technology were to improve/advance to the point we could hold efficiency and reasonable ground clearance without resorting to high pitch or 3+ blades, or way too tall to appear scale gear. It's not just this 20cc engine either. The 25% planes w/30-35cc engines are running into the same thing - only to a little lesser degree. What got me started with this was visualizing an 18'' prop on a .60 size airframe. FWIW






I agree with all of your points.

Today, our model airplane engine technology is becoming similar to what has happened in automotive drag racing some years ago. Drag racers have produced so much extra power with their engines that now the trick is in finding ways to get the power to the ground. Not producing more horsepower. Ditto with model airplanes, although we are only on the cusp of this phenomenon.


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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 12:04 AM   
ghoffman


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks
What got me started with this was visualizing an 18" prop on a .60 size airframe. FWIW 


The yellow Ultra Stick is the 60 size!  This engine is light enough to balance the plane perfectly with the servos in the tail, and a 10 oz tank at the CG so it does not change much empty to full.  



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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 1:08 AM   
SpinnerRow



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ghoffman


quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks
What got me started with this was visualizing an 18'' prop on a .60 size airframe. FWIW 


The yellow Ultra Stick is the 60 size!  This engine is light enough to balance the plane perfectly with the servos in the tail, and a 10 oz tank at the CG so it does not change much empty to full.  



Yea, thats one of the planes I want to put this engine on as well.

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 1:54 AM   
ghoffman


 

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Status: offline 		OK, I just got 15 pounds, 2 oz of thrust with the Vess 16-6:





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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 2:06 AM   
Kostas1



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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 2:14 AM   
ghoffman


 

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 2:37 AM   
scosby


 

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Status: offline 		ghoffman, What are the chances of seeing some video of the Ultrastick with the 20?

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 2:55 AM   
ghoffman


 

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 4:09 AM   
saintcreed


 

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Got what you got in thrust today. Only I was running a 17 x 6 APC prop at 87-8800 rpm's, with idle down around 1770-1801..Surprised me to say the least. Was only expecting something around 13-14 pounds of thrust...If I knew how to get the pictures out of my Kodak program on to this forum I'd show everyone the pictures of everything I've just stated...All this with only 33 ounces of fuel through the engine..

Only problem so far with the engine is that coming down from high throttle to idle...the rpm's only drop down to around 3200 rpm's then after about 30-45 seconds the engine drops down to the 1770 idle..anyone have any ideas...needles are or have been set so from 1770 to full throttle the transition is smooth...when it does drop down to the 1770 it's not a gradual slow down from 3300 to 1770, it happens in a matter of 3-5 seconds and just sets there idling away.. Almost like someone switched a switch....Thinking it might have something to do with the timming in the ignition modual. Jody mention earllier in this thread about the special ignition to let the engine idle at a lower rpm. Anyone else having this occurance.

It's not as quick in the spool up as my YS 140, but reasonable and will get better with break in. ...The 8 pound 4 ounce Extra 260 this is going on will be a happy camper..

I think it was wrongway that mentioned the harmonics around 25-2700 rpm's...he was right...around those rpm's the monokote sounds like someone is beating on it with drum sticks...then it smooths right out..

If this engine has a good life span with no real issues, I will definetly get another one or two...

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 5:11 AM   
a1pcfixer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: saintcreed

ghoffman

Only problem so far with the engine is that coming down from high throttle to idle...the rpm's only drop down to around 3200 rpm's then after about 30-45 seconds the engine drops down to the 1770 idle..anyone have any ideas...needles are or have been set so from 1770 to full throttle the transition is smooth...when it does drop down to the 1770 it's not a gradual slow down from 3300 to 1770, it happens in a matter of 3-5 seconds and just sets there idling away.. Almost like someone switched a switch....


Yep. I'm seeing the same thing!
Blip the throttle real quick will also bring the high idle back down.

Maybe Jody has an idea of why & a fix?

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 5:28 AM   
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Status: offline 		This is usually indicative of a rich setting on the low speed needle


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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 6:18 AM   
saintcreed


 

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Status: offline 		RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! - 10/5/2010 2:28 AM


w8ye


That's what I thought also, but that isn't it...as a rule, not written in stone, rich low means a lag in the transition or loads up and dies, which I do not have. Also with a rich low needle, why after a few seconds it idles right down to 1770 and just set there ticking over, One would think rich low it wouldn't set there with that low of an idle and not flood out and stop running.I'm more than open to any thoughts. Always said to my men that two heads are better than one at times. Sometimes we over think things that are right there in front of us...that's why I was leaning towards the ingnition module and the so call preset timming for the low idle...this isn't my first gasser and I've never had one act quite like this from high to low throttle setting. I checked the timming from the factory and it was at 29 degrees.

Like I state open to suggestions or ideas...I don't walk on water yet therefore I don't know everything...that and they haven't put 6' of dirt over me so I'm still learning..

My first gasser using just one flight battery pak...2300mAh A123. 2 switches, Iso switch on the ign, along with a voltage reducer. Range check on the ground with and without the engine running checked out fine...Futaba 9CS 2.4 radio. and a 608 receiver.

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 7:08 AM   
rhd-RCU



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Status: offline 		I have seen the same thing in a glow engine. Needles are wrong.

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RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post) - 10/5/2010 7:15 AM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: offline 		My guess is that you wanted a smooth idle & set it too lean.  If not...it must be the ignition timing curve.  I do believe some of these small gassers have carbs with too big of venturi.  Put a smaller carb on & they may run great....with some loss at top end rpm.   Capt,n

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