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A stick in the mud... - 1/5/2003 10:27:00 PM   
ChuckAuger



Posts: 5134
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Pampa, TX, USA
Status: offline 		1C...or 1B if 1C is like $100 or something. My plans are in tatters.

2B...if some care is taken to insure oak is not substituted..

But I don't want any removeable wings...take a look at the Duellist. The ailerons go inboard past the nacelles, so if you made the wings removeable outboard of the nacelles, you will not be able to have any aileron inboard of the nacelle. Of course I could build around this I reckon..

And I surely hope you don't intend to make the wings removeable inboard of the nacelle....


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Pica Duellist - 1/5/2003 10:57:09 PM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Sorry Chuck:

Guess you missed it. The intention is four wing servos, mixing "Flaperons" on the inboard section. Six wing servos, including the throttles.

Also, a two piece wing, using an aluminum joiner tube. If you're worried about the strength of this, don't. I, and many other people, have already built twins this way, and never had a failure.

But if you want the whole thing one piece, or just outboard sections removeable, go for it. But the removeable outer sections sounds intriguing - it would be a little more than 2' wide. Take it to the local r/c car track without the wings, have a lot of fun chewing up toy trucks with the propellors. Haw.

Options, option, who's got the options?
. Just please yourself, on where it sections.

Bill.

PS: Ignore the assumption in my PM - got your PM before I got the post. On reflection I think 1C) also. wr

< Message edited by William Robison -- Jan 5 2003 6:02PM >

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       Post #: 177

Yeah, I missed it.. - 1/5/2003 11:04:14 PM   
ChuckAuger



Posts: 5134
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Pampa, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Wow..split ailerons..removeable wings...massive complexity..

All I wanted was an 85" Duellist..

My vison of Duellist has gotten off-track..
Might be time to split from the pack..


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       Post #: 178

Pica Duellist - 1/5/2003 11:20:16 PM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Chuck:

So build it your way. Your airplane. I like flaps, I'll use them.

I don't think you could get away with a single servo for the ailerons, though, driven at the center I'd be afraid of their flexing and losing effectiveness toward the tips.

Please don't be a "Party Pooper,"
. Our Duellists should really be "Super."

Bill.

PS: Your rhymes are getting better, even if I don't like what they say. wr

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Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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       Post #: 179

My way... - 1/5/2003 11:32:46 PM   
ChuckAuger



Posts: 5134
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Pampa, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Well, I don't know how the kit will be engineered..if it will be too much trouble to reverse engineer my way out of all the bells and whistles, etc. And not sure how many pices I'd have to re-cut to make it simpler..

And even on my 67" Duellist I don't drive the ailerons from the center..I use two servos in it mounted the next bay outboard of the nacelles.

Not trying to be a party pooper...
Just want a Duellist that's not as Super...


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       Post #: 180

Pica Duellist - 1/5/2003 11:45:10 PM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Chuck:

We'll be sure to include an easy one-piece option.

Doesn't have to be quite so super.
. still to be a good looper.

Bill.

_____________________________

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AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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       Post #: 181

Pica Duellist - 1/6/2003 12:24:11 AM   
GSNut



Posts: 412
Joined: 3/22/2002
From: Thornton, CO,
Status: offline 		:

Bill, Chuck and all!

This is starting to look/sound like the Army Mule after it was redesigned by the Department of Defense and the EPA....Duh??
Next thing we hear is about Wing Slats and Slots, I suppose.

Me thinks, we should let "Da Man" get the job done (IMHO)!
And send encouragement and Thanks for being a Standup Leader!

So Focus Guys, Focus! "Da Plane Boss! Da Plane!"

Input is great and I appreciate it. But I intend on bashing the bloody thing my way anyway.

MY Way......twin ST90's or bigger, 3 bladed props, 3 fuel tank system, retracks, flaps and might even do a one off composite fuse and nacelles...now anything else will be decided when I see da plans...OK?


Am workin on the strobes for the 50s on the Mustang now...
Check out: Pilot StrobeLights #WI200 they run great on 4.8 to 7.4 VDC and seem to be noise free on the receiver power supply.
At most Auto Parts Stores, at least around here.

Bill:

So you can hang a name to GSNUT:

Doug Hathaway.......303.452.6758
Doug in Denver

TIA Later All


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Cheers!

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       Post #: 182

Sounds fine... - 1/6/2003 1:05:48 AM   
ChuckAuger



Posts: 5134
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Pampa, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I've already offered my $$ contribution to "the Boss" and will stand by whatever decision is made..it would appear my ideas are in the minority, but like you said..I'm gonna bash it anyway.

I just missed out on several of the posts where all the design criteria were being worked out..I should have spoken then if I wanted to be heard.

I promise I'll shut up now...


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       Post #: 183

Pica Duellist - 1/6/2003 4:21:12 AM   
AmishWarlord



Posts: 412
Joined: 10/26/2002
From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I just had to post this sweet looking Duelist that I found on a German web page.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize

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       Post #: 184

Pica Duellist - 1/7/2003 6:34:12 AM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
Status: offline 		AWL:

I don't mind the alteration to the nacelles, don't much care for the "Finned" originals myself. The teeth I can put up with. But the alteration of the nose contour I don't care for. Just my opinion.

Super Duellist Participants:

Looks like we'll go with including the enlarged plans and the complete wood kit.

EHF is talking to Air Age about the copyright, when that is settled we'll be able to copy the original plan and manual for inclusion if requested, but there will be additional copying costs for them, so if you don't need them you don't have to get them.

No dissention on including no hardware, but EHF had a thought about the wing joiner tube and socket. Central Hobbies sells them, again, a bulk purchase might get a better price, and this is one part we all will need. Opinions/suggestions?

The main hold-up right now is the copy right question,when that's settled we shoud have a go for cutting.

Now that we know what wil be included (except possibly the joiner tube set) we can get a firm price from the cutter. And unless he was blowing wind initially it should come in between $100 and $150 per kit. Yes, that's quite a range, but it includes the plans, LEGAL plans, and you won't get the wood alone at your LHS for the high end guess. And I'm including freight costs as well.

For those who don't remember, the first quote/guess was $45 for the wood, (which I strongly believe was only for the cut wood,) and adding the scanning/set-up charges spread across fifteen sets, that left the individual set at $51.67 each. But maybe it WAS for the complete wood requirement. Better not count on it. Adding the piddly things, copying, etc, I'll still hold to the buck to buck-and-a-half range.

Discussing logistics and snags with EHF, we're agreed that shipping will probably be in the second half of April.

Comments? Any new takers? Not yet too late.

Get your Super Duellist in the air,
. About the time the weather turns fair.

Bill.

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Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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       Post #: 185

Super Duelist - 1/7/2003 10:43:29 AM   
jamesg33


 

Posts: 63
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: Saint Peters, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Not sure if anyone has asked this or not so here goes (I briefly scanned the posts, but this thread is getting pretty long so I may have missed it). Is anyone interested in doing a foam wing on this Super Duelist? Is there some reason this wouldn't work? It seems like it would eliminate a lot of the complexity of the existing wing and would allow more flexibility for individual builders (flaps vs no flaps, retracts vs fixed gear, one-piece vs 2-piece wing, 2 servos/4servos etc, etc). Also, the position of the nacelles could be easily adjusted for those that wanted to do that.
Any thoughts on this?


Jim Greenwood

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       Post #: 186

Pica Duellist - 1/7/2003 11:56:50 AM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Jim:

Historical note: In 1977, when the Duellist was first to be kitted, foam wings were not yet held in the high repute they now have, and I'm not sure I have yet heard of a Dave Platt design using a foam wing.

Further note. In the June 1977 RCM ad, Dave Platt Models said:
"The Duellists, a pair of twins. With a span of 67", the Duellist 2/30 will be announced this summer, followed by the Duellist 2/60, spanning 80." Those of you who attended the Tangerine Internats saw what this ship can do."

The "Duellist 2/30" was released as the "Duellist 2/40," and I never heard any more about the "Duellist 2/60," with its 80" span.That 2/60 version is basically what we are attempting to produce as the "Super Duellist."

A foam wing, in my opinion, just would not be the "Right" thing to do.

I will admit I gave some thought, not only to a foam wing, but also pulling a plug for a fiberglass fuselage. Thankfully, good sense prevailed. Or at least what I think was good sense.

But I may yet do it.

I've built some single engined foam wingers, but I'd want to do some stress analysis before I hung engines on foam, sheeted and/or glassed, or neither.

But if you want to cut a foam wing for it, please do so - I'll get in line for some cores after you do the engineering. Maybe I'll do the fuse plug, we can go for a 100" version, that way there won't be any duplication of effort, and with some outline changes it will be a new airplane, no copyright problems!

Build a foam Duellist,
. That'll be a new twist.

Bill.

_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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       Post #: 187

Pica Duellist - 1/7/2003 1:54:29 PM   
Flyboy Dave



Posts: 13549
Joined: 3/20/2002
From: San Bernardino County, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Sounds like not too bad an idea. I'd end up glassing
the fuse and nacelles anyway. I was even thinking silk
and paint on the wings. That way you end up with a
super strong....painted plane.

Actually....if your starting out with a clean sheet of paper,
a more modern effort, fiberglass fuse and nacelles...with
foam wings and tail feathers makes a lot of sense. Not
that it can't be done the Old Fashioned way mind you .

With just the slightest changes to the front ot the fuse, the shape of the nacelles and the shape or dimentions of the
tail feathers....it's a new plane. The modeler has only to
sheet the darn thing and assemble any doggone way he
wants....retracts, flaps ect.

Don't need a copyright agreement....don't need a mountain
of balsa, or a balsa cutter....don't need plans ( a huge one )
a simple drawing would suffice. Kinda like what happened to
pattern planes in the '80's . Most of Joe Bridi's pattern
stuff ended up that way.

I know nobody would make a plug and a mold for a dozen
planes. Now I'm thinkin' that foam wings and stabs, and
built-up and glassed over fuse and nacelles would be the
best "Committee Super Duellist".

Just thinkin' out loud again....Dave.

< Message edited by Flyboy Dave -- Jan 7 2003 9:17AM >

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       Post #: 188

Pica Duellist - 1/7/2003 10:20:03 PM   
ehfleming


 

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Fayetteville, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Greetings Esteemed SD Club Members,

Status report - I talked with Jason Bongo (?) of Air Age about our copyright concerns for producing the kit. He agreed to investigate whatever issues would affect us, and report back to me. He also informed me that the MK II plans are available from the Air Age RC Store. I checked, they are. Since this is so, our worst case scenario could be simply to purchase a set of the original plans from the Store for each kit, an additional $19.95 charge. I'll update you when Jason gets back with me.

About the foam wings, this would work. I recall reading of a modeler's B-36 project about two years ago. His large wings were foam core, making overall construction much simpler. I lost track of the status of that project, but that plane should be ready to fly, by now. As Bill already suggested, nothing we are doing here will stop any one from designing a foam core wing option. Personally, I would like to save that engineering effort for the 104" (150%) Duellist, dubbed "Super Duper Duelly". If it's any concern to anyone, the MKII original W.S is 69", about 2" longer than the Pica kit.

Ernest

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