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Pica Duellist - 11/3/2002 10:42:54 PM   
OldRookie


 

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OK...I'll start the first thread on the Pica Duellist.
I just bought a Duellist this summer, and it is competing with my DP Ultimate 120 for the next project.
This looks as if it will be a long building project, so I am going to ask for any suggestions on what to add, leave out, or improve on . Mine is the laser cut kit.
I have read most of the posts on Deja about the Duellist, but I think that this would be a good time to drag everything out again and get some fresh input. Every time I read old posts in Deja I always find myself wanting to ask about why a person did something this way or that, but the threads are several years old, and it would seem silly to post to them.
What is the MKII Duellist? What was different about it?
I have two OS 46FX engines that I would like to use for this plane.
Bring it on!

Greg
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Pica Duellist - 11/4/2002 3:23:34 AM   
Edwin


 

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I'm in the same predicament. Duellist, Extra, F-15 (DF). When I do build the Duellist, I have 2 saito .56's to put in. I'm also thinking about moving the retracts out one bay on the mains to install longer struts. I understand there is a ground clearance problem with the props when using retracts. Other than that, I'm gonna glass it.
Edwin

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Pica Duellist - 11/4/2002 3:51:50 AM   
JL1


 

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There is a ground clearance problem with the model. I would definitely do something to lengthen all three struts. Be careful with the nose gear strut length, If you get it even a little short and the plane has negative incidence on take off You will have to accelerate to Mach one before it catapults into the air.

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Pica Duellist - 11/4/2002 4:11:14 AM   
mucksmear



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If you are note averse to tail-draggers, converting the Duellist to a tail-dragging config will take care of the prop clearance problem, and also cut your weight down a little by eliminating the nose gear/wheel. This is what I did on mine.

Alternately, use 3 bladed props and you can go about an 1" smaller in diameter.

I also moved my mains out into the nacelles to provide a wider track.

My kit was the older die-cut kit. The wood for the ribs was extremely dense and heavy, I replaced it with medium density balsa and shaved 3 oz. in the ribs alone!!!

I thought the 7 degrees of downthrust on the engines looked excessive, but it's just right. Plane flies beautifully and tracks nicely in all phases of flight. Just build it as instructed.

A little more info on my duellist at this link:
http://www.elliotfan.com/temp/duelist.html

Hope this helps.
-E

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Prop Clearance - 11/4/2002 4:27:38 AM   
ChuckAuger



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Yep, you need some more, but it is easy to come by if you plan for it. Mine is jacked up 1 1/4" and is marginal on ground clearance with 9" diameter props. But this is a very simple mod..

Replace the light ply gear doublers (use retracts..it's worth it) and dihedral braces with 1/16" AC ply.

Carve, sand, shape until you are sick and tired of it, then take off some more. Trust me, this thing can turn out with some square looking naceles and nose.

I didn't change anything else, thrust-wise. Do a search for Duellist and there are a couple of threads that have the gear mod notes, and I have a construction sequence set of pics from a guy who I helped thru the building process. His turned out awesome.


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Breaking the Speed of Sound, Straight Down!

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Pica Duellist - 11/4/2002 6:00:34 AM   
OldRookie


 

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I guess I didn't think about covering with fiberglass cloth. Is this necessary? It seems as if all the wood in the kit is of the size and density that that wouldn't be necessary.

Do you think that mechanical retracts would work out with this plane, or would air be better. I have a tri-gear set of Dave Brown retracts.

What are you people using for a fuel system?

Mucksmear...Nice job on the plane. I have seen pictures of your plane on other web sites. The tail dragger version is certainly worth consideration. Love the tail draggers!

Does anyone have experience with carbon fiber for building? Could carbon fiber building techniques be used to good advantage on the Duellist? I don't know much about building light with carbon fiber and other com posits.

ChuckAuger...I was aware of the ground clearance problem. Are you saying you lengthened the gear 1-1/4" and still barely clear a 9" propeller?

Thanks for all of the responses so far. We have a good start.
Greg

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Greg... - 11/4/2002 7:01:11 AM   
ChuckAuger



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Mine is Monokote..no glass. Been flying WFO since '97 no sweat.

And yes..1 1/4" but I can taxi with 9", on pavement probably 10".

If built per plan, you will hate it. Trust me on this.

Mechanical retracts..no problem. Maybe the nose gear. I use air, the guy in the photo set used air.

I wish you would do the Duellist search. There are some good threads out there.


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Pica Duellist - 11/4/2002 10:41:02 AM   
mucksmear



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OldRookie,

I used some carbon fiber tow on the bottom of the lower spar, and the top of the top spar. I also tapered the spar depth, starting from the outboard side of the nacelles, tapering down to 1/8" thickness at the wing tips. Wetted it down with epoxy resin and stretched it taught . Sandwiched under the wing skins. In retrospect, I don't think you need to to do any of that. If the wood is decent and you do a tight build, it should be plenty strong.

Unless they've changed it, washout it built into the wing with the help of a stick "jig" laid down onto the plans. Pretty important to build a nice true wing, especially if you are unable to keep the weight down.

Also recommend using 2 ailieron servos, one infront of each aileron, rather than using a single aileron servo in the center and the supplied torque rods. Also let's you play with flaperons if you have mixing on your radio.

I glassed the airframe because I wanted to do a paint finish, and I was just interested in trying out the method. It's certainly not necessary, and Monkote or even Solartex or similar would be great too.

I used the supra mechanical retracts with a 1-3/4" piece of straight music wire going into a straight shock absorbing "robo-strut" by Robart. The music wire gets bent on the bouncy landings, but are easy to replace. The retract mechanisms seem to hold up ok, but they do start to get a little side to side play if you have a lot of rough landings (hard on the pivot bushings).

I used an interconnected 3 tank fuel system. Center tank is vented to the outside. Outboard tanks are set up as header tanks that stay full as long as there is fuel in the center tank- guarantees around 8 minutes of fuel for both engines, after that, the thirstier engine will finish whats left in its header tank first, which is usually another 4-6 minutes, but I "should" be on the ground by then.

-E

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Pica Duellist - 11/4/2002 10:40:19 PM   
FLYBOY



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the duelist looks and flys great, but if you haven't flown a twin, remember one thing. When you are flying it, if one quits, shut the other one down or pull the power. I was standing behind a friend flying his and one quit, he added power and it started to spin, I was behind him yelling, "shut it of, shut it off". He did and managed to save it just in time.

Saw one once in all Metalic blue. It was awsome. Have a blast.

_____________________________

Fly it till the wings come off.

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Pica Duellist - 11/13/2002 9:04:03 PM   
OldRookie


 

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Does anyone have any good weight saving tips for building the Duellist?

Greg

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twin trouble - 11/14/2002 12:33:14 AM   
JGrc



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"the duelist looks and flys great, but if you haven't flown a twin, remember one thing. When you are flying it, if one quits, shut the other one down or pull the power........"


I thought the reason to have two engines is for more realibility.
Remember, twins have twice the chance of dead sicks.
\JG

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Duelist..... - 11/14/2002 2:25:16 AM   
warbirdz1


 

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Folks....Don't Panic!!!!...The Duelist will fly all day on one engine if its powered correctly....Had a duelist with 2 asp 46's and almost every flt flew half the time on one engine...til I switched to To S/T 51's then I intentionally had to fill one tank halfway because engine failures weren't occuring anymore....Follow instructions and keep it on light side and you'll be fine...Bill...

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Pica Duellist - 11/14/2002 3:31:56 AM   
mucksmear



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What warbirdz1 said! or mostly so at least. There are certain circumstances where reaction time is critical. That being said, I will attest to the fact that my Duellist will and has climbed (shallow climb that is) on one engine. I have also turned into the dead engine with no problems. But under both those circumstances, I was already at "cruising" speed and about 1/2-3/4 throttle.

If you're flying fast and level, and you lose an engine you might not even know you've lost one untill you try to climb or if you try to execute a tight turn, both being energy draining manuvers.

If you're going slow, and your power is high (for example on take-off) you will have much less time to react, and this is true with the majority of twins (tandem arrangements notwithstanding, etc.). So don't take off till you've reached vmc, or at least, keep your climbout shallow till untill you think you've passed vmc.

Weight reduction: Replace any excessivly heavy wood with ligher wood. Keep your finishing process light. I saw a beautifully finish Duellist with an automotive paint job over epoxy/fiberglass, real nice, but she weighed 17lbs!!!!! Go with iron on film or if you want to glass it, use 0.5oz or 0.75oz glass cloth with laminating/finishing epoxy resin.

-E

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Duellist 2/40 - 11/14/2002 5:51:34 AM   
William Robison



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Gentlemen,
I too have a Duellist under construction.
One of the questions I can answer easily, as this is my third twin. VMC considerations can be eased considerably by making the vertical fin and rudder larger. On my first twin, a scratch built semi-scale Tigercat, I looked at the 3-views, and seeing the engines almost halfway out the wings was struck with "Engine Out Terror." I made the fin and rudder 150% scale. Result: this plane has its VMC just barely above stall speed, even with the engines so far out on the wings. More weight in the tail helps the Duellist balance, too.
But I cheated a little on the engines, also. I brought the nacelles a little closer than they should be. The thrust lines, both engines have 2 degrees down thrust with the wing at two degrees positive. The left engine has no side thrust, the right has 2 degrees right.
Unless you have a calibrated eyeball and the 3-views in hand, these changes are not obvious.
What is the Duellist MkII? This is the one I can answer easily. Dave Platt was the designer of the Duellist, The MkII is his upgrade of the original design. I know, the plans from Pica don't mention Dave Platt, it irritates me. I think Pica should give him at least a little credit.
Yes, preferably dual aileron servos, AND MUST have dual throttle servos. Separate throttle control is required to use the EMS "Twin engine sync system." Costs $80 from EMS/Jomar, but cosidering the total we spend on a twin that's a small part, since I put one on my second twin I don't want to be without it on a twin. My first has a single throttle servo, I have much fun getting sync, and usually don't get it anyway. With the EMS box, so long as the needles are reasonably close the engines always sing a perfectly tuned song. Fantastic.
Fuel system. Twin #1 has isolated fuel systems, separate tank in each nacelle. Twin #2 has only one tank, in the fuselage at CG. It has two clunks in it, each clunk feeding one engine. The clunk hose for the right (critical) engine is just a hair shorter than the one for the left, This way if I overstay my aerial welcome the right engine quits first. I did not have confidence that the engines would draw reliably at that distance, and I didn't want to use header tanks. The engines are pumped. Used one Perry pump inside each nacelle, up tight against the firewall, the hose to the crankcase is only an inch long.
The incidences and thrust lines on this bird are all zero-zero, I wanted the inverted flight characteristics to be the same as upright. It worked. Almost. I built it with mid-wings, the wings are not tapered, so I put in seven degrees of dihedral to add upright stability. It is ALMOST undetectable when inverted, upright it's rock steady.
Hope some of this rambling helps somebody.

A Twin is never a SIN!

WLR

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Wow.. - 11/14/2002 6:44:15 AM   
ChuckAuger



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EDIT: I was confused..I thought all the twins you were describing were Duellists..., I see now that some were and some weren't...

I built mine per plans,(incidence wise) and it flies excellent upright, inverted, sideways, and engine out. I guess I'm just lucky??

I've had 2 engine outs, both from running out of fuel.

In fact I've said more than once that the Duellist is the epitome of aircraft handling, the word "grooves" was made for this plane.

Beside a knife edge pass (a crowd pleaser, the silloette is awesome), the airfield-long slow roll is also stunning.

I love mine just like it is, and if I built another, I wouldn't do anything different. But don't take this as critisism of any design changes you have made, we all know how we like to do things, and I respect anyones choice of alterations.

They are awesome planes in any way, shape, or form!


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Breaking the Speed of Sound, Straight Down!

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