starting an MK 17 for first time (Full Version)

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mlazee -> starting an MK 17 for first time (8/17/2010 11:26 PM)

Hello.
I bought an MK 17 new in the box. So I went to the gas station and bought some diesel fuel, and nothing. Then I think it was this forum somebody said to use kerosine, mineral oil and ether. I'm going to try this. ///but I'm not sure what starting positions  to use to adust the gas mixture screw, or the adjustment for the screw that controls compression. Also when I first got this the crank would not turn. I backed out the compression screw all the way and put some oil in it. Waited a couple days and was still siezed up. I took off the cylinder head and pressed out the the part in the cylinder that was siezed up, soake it in oil for a while and it cleaned up and moves now. But in doing this the cork gasket between the cylinder head and the crank housing tore pretty good. Can I use some kind of RTV or something here, I know the cork replacement would be optimal but I'm having trouble finding it. Also is that mixture for the fuel pretty much it. I can't find castor oil really. I thought our mothers used to give teaspoons of it to us as children or maybe that was cod liver oil, yum yum
Thanks for any help,
John                  mlazee



Kiteflyer -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/17/2010 11:51 PM)

Did you run the engine on diesel bought at the gas station?



Kiteflyer -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/17/2010 11:55 PM)

I am sorry i can't offer much help, but i suggest that you put the engine aside until more experienced fellows will weigh in.



Mr Cox -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 12:58 AM)

There is loads of information in this forum already (try the search function). Most important is to have the correct fuel (it is not regular diesel), so do your self a favour and buy a ready mixed fuel for model diesel engines before you make any attemp at starting it. There are chemicals needed (to improve ignition) that are both dangerous and hard to get. I don't know what would be closest to you but check with Davis Diesel development (check here; Diesel fuel) and they should be able to help you.

When you have the correct fuel you also need to understand how to tuned them using both compression ratio and the amount of fuel. Again the website of Davis Diesel development should be able to help you.

When operated incorrectly, with too high compression, you can damage both the engine and your self. A diesel ignites on compression only so the "ignition" is always on at anytime it is turned over.



mlazee -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 1:21 AM)

Yes stupid me, to me diesel met the gas that you bought at the gas station. I always knew that it is the compression that ignites the fuel, bought I took it for granted that it was diesel from the gas station. I will call the local hobby store for diesel rc fuel, but Like I said in the first post. Isn't possible to make usable fuel from a ratio of kerosine, mineral oil, and ether? //the whole reason I bought the MK 17 is that I thought it would run off regular diesel, the hobby shops around here aren't great about carrying rc fuels. i've been buying nitro based fuels on line but then you got shipping. Buying the Davis Diesel won't be a deal breaker, I'll check out their site. If anybody has any other tips for first time dieselers I'd appreciate it. Thanks to guys who replied and pointed me in the right direction. Also I googled this before I wrote here, and this is the first place I heard of Davis Diesel. Maybe I should of omitted MK 17 from my search.
Thanks,
John     mlazee



Mr Cox -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 1:32 AM)

It is a very common misstake, the diesel name is missleading and you are not the first nor the last one.

For a beginner I see no reason to try and make the fuel your self. The fuel is very important for the engine to run properly. I sincerely suggest that you first get a ready made fuel to get to know the engine. If after that you wish to play with homemade fuel, at least you will know what it should run like. It is not only ether that is important, you will also need a small amount of an ignition improver and these are very hazardous to handle in their pure form. A diesel engine uses less fuel than a glow engine and if you make about one purchase a year the shipping will not be so costly.



mlazee -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 2:21 AM)

Thank you
For saying it is a common mistake about the diesel name being alittle misleading. I have ordered davis diesel fuel since I wrote this thread I' m sure it hasn't been shipped yet. I have been looking up fuel recipes in the mean time. I found that the castor oil is made from castor beans, and was wondering if this is the same as what they sell in the drug store. I asked at the auto parts store and they just give me a puzzeled look. But I have always heard of castroil motor oil. But I don't think it is intended for this use. Also ignition improver, I can;t find that under that name, again the puzzeled  look from the kid behind the counter. I found an ignition improver on line, but is there a product name that I might find this locally under.
I don;t want to come across as real stupid, But I spent so much time messing with this MK 17 that I'd like to learn as much as possible.
Thanks for everybody's replies.
John       mlazee



fiery -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 2:30 AM)

Castor oil is readily available, try a karting or racing motorcycle shop. Two street brands in the US are Klotz BeNol and Sig AAA.

In Europe and the Commonwealth Countries we have access to Castrol M, Castrol R40, Fuchs Silkolene Castorene R40, Shell Racing R40 etc. I doubt these brand name oils (mostly directed at karting) are readily available in the US though.



gkamysz -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 2:33 AM)

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4853740/tm.htm

Have a look here. I have some links to some basic information about model diesel engines.



AMB -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 3:04 AM)

Mlazee just wait and use the Davis fuel nothing need be added the ignition improver already there in it martin



Recycled Flyer -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 3:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mlazee
But in doing this the cork gasket between the cylinder head and the crank housing tore pretty good. Can I use some kind of RTV or something here, I know the cork replacement would be optimal but I'm having trouble finding it. Also is that mixture for the fuel pretty much it. I can't find castor oil really.


No one has addressed the gasket point yet so simply use gasket paper, or any similar thickness card will do and there is no need to fret about it being a slightly different material.

As to the castor oil content, many Russian diesels do indeed use mineral oil as the stated lubricant in their operating manuals and its just that 100% castor is the King of oils for cast iron pistons running in steel liners like in your Mk 17 - other liner piston combinations will also benefit from a percentage of castor added to the synthetic oil mix.

You will probably find that an ignition improver is not part of the factory recomended fuel mix either but only because its hard to get in Russia, same as the castor is.

Just as an aside here, never pull apart a diesel after running it in just for the heck of it as the parts lap together with a unique fit and distubing that fit will result in extra wear as the lapping process tries to repeat itself over again.

The MK 17 is a good engine so please persevere with it.

Cheers.





mlazee -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 3:34 AM)

Yes
I'm going to wait for the davis diesel fuel. I'm Just trying to feed my brain. Since I first wrote in here and have learned a little more about what I should be looking for I have found some good information including the information I've gotten from you guys Here is a small site I found that I thought was interesting

http://www.cafes.net/doctordiesel/DDfuel.htm

he sell a fuel recipe that he sell and he tells hou you can make it..........

ETHER 40%. Use WalMart Super Tech starting fluid. Makes one quart fuel.

CASTOR 25%   Use SIG or Klotz. No synthetics.

KEROSENE 35%  K1 or paint store.

ADDITIVE 4%  Cetane Booster from auto stores or WalMart.

TOTAL 104%.   Mix fuel and add booster last for ease of measurement.

It seems that he has a good book for beginning dieseler on the site too.
Thank again
John         mlazee



mlazee -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 5:29 AM)

I use gasket paper at the steel mill that I work at but I never gave it a thought. good Idea. Earlier I stated that I bought the davis diesel fuel, but how nice it would be to make a quality fuel, no shipping costs and maybe an over all lower cost, as long as it was a quality concoction. My wife's meatloaf recipe seems harder than this mixture for diesel.
Thanks again,
John          mlazee



Recycled Flyer -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 5:48 AM)

A good tip when trying to start an unknown engine is to preheat the entire engine with a heat gun, not red hot mind you but just warm enough to hold for 3 seconds before having to remove your hand.

This will loosen up any oil gum left over from the shipping preservative and greatly assist starting, then prime the CLOSED exhaust port after getting the fuel feed up to the carby.

Fit a prop that will give you a good flywheel weight, say a 9x4  nylon and don't flood it!

Cheers.

(Amended out the 10x4 prop choice in favour for a 9x4)




FNQFLYER -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 6:39 AM)

We used to run an O/T event dedicated to the MK17, I had to and as time went on I found they made good sinkers for my fishing line.  However the fuel we used as a base was 1/3 kero (if you can get it the fuel drainings from turbine powered a/c) 1/3 castor and 1/3 ether.  Then if you want to up to 2% IPN (diesel improver)
Good luck and enjoy it while it works



gcb -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/18/2010 7:31 PM)

John,

You have been given some excellent information here.

I have three Mk-17's and like them fine. They don't have a lot of time on them so, as they say, time will tell.

I got mine from Carlson Engine Imports. Give Ed Carlson a call if you need parts.

For an unstarted engine, a good compression setting to start with is...holding the piston at top dead center, screw the contra piston down using the compression adjustment until the contra-piston touches the piston. Now back off one turn.

Use commercial fuel until you learn to run your engine, then if you feel the need to make your own it's up to you. I use commercial fuel.

I'm guessing that you bought a gallon of fuel from Mr. Davis. A gallon in a Mk-17 will go a LOOOONG way. One of the great things about model diesels is that they don't use a lot of fuel. I would dispense some of the fuel into a pint or quart container and use that for running. Keeo the gallon can tightly closed so the ether won't evaporate. Teflon plumbers tape on the can threads will help seal it.

If you want to know more about diesels, I would suggest this site. They have an EXCELLENT explanation of how to break-in a diesel and why.
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/dieselcombat/index.htm

Good luck with your Mk-17.

George



maxtenet -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/20/2010 3:12 AM)

MK 17 is a great diesel engine but a little too much compression and "crack" there goes the crank! Really ought to start with something simpler and use the 1/3 castor,1/3 ether and 1/3 kerosene to start.

Max[8D][8D]



gcb -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/20/2010 4:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maxtenet
MK 17 is a great diesel engine but a little too much compression and ''crack'' there goes the crank! Really ought to start with something simpler and use the 1/3 castor,1/3 ether and 1/3 kerosene to start.

Max[8D][8D]


Thanks for the info. I had never heard that about a Mk-17. I think 33% castor oil is a bit much though. Since the Mk-17 is a BB engine, I think 25% max is enough.

I think the advice about getting an experienced diesel runner to help, if possible, is an excellent idea. It sure shortens the learning curve a whole lot.

George

For those not familiar with the Mk-17, here is a pic:



Recycled Flyer -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/20/2010 6:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: maxtenet

MK 17 is a great diesel engine but a little too much compression and "crack" there goes the crank! Really ought to start with something simpler and use the 1/3 castor,1/3 ether and 1/3 kerosene to start.

Max[8D][8D]

I think that the same sage advice that applies to that other popular Russian diesel, the Marz would apply here also, normalise the crankshaft before use.

It would appear that the heat treatment on some of these engines is somewhat aggressive and needs to taken down a notch, in other words the cranks are too hard and brittle for our use.




steve111 -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/21/2010 10:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Recycled Flyer


Fit a prop that will give you a good flywheel weight, say a 10x4  nylon and don't flood it!




A 10x4 for running-in a 1.5cc diesel? [X(] Seems like an awful lot of prop - particularly if you have concerns over the strength of the internals.

A new Mk17 will go quite happily on a 7" prop, and if I wanted a bit more flywheel effect I wouldn't go for any more than an 8x4.

Cheers
Steve



Diesel Fan -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/21/2010 11:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: steve111


quote:

ORIGINAL: Recycled Flyer


Fit a prop that will give you a good flywheel weight, say a 10x4  nylon and don't flood it!



A 10x4 for running-in a 1.5cc diesel? [X(] Seems like an awful lot of prop - particularly if you have concerns over the strength of the internals.


Odd then that prop size has been recommended before without question on this same forum.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4592462/tm.htm
Witness post 3.




colingw -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/21/2010 11:40 AM)

David Owen's advice to me when I got mine was as follows :-

"The MK17 is a really nice little engine and quite a cut above the Marz.
You do not need to dismantle it. More damage has been done pulling engines apart than any amount of swarf can inflict.

I would give it a flush out with acetone just to make sure that the bearings, conrod and disc are free. That's it. Then give it several fast (but not hard) runs on a 7x4 prop and it will be ready to fly."

I used a MA GF3 7x4 and the small venturi, and snuck up on the compression setting via priming to the side of the cylinder. Once I could get it to burp out a prime I hooked up a fuel tank. A few runs as David describes, then on to the large venturi and its good to go. Performance is similar to a good PAW 149. 14K+ on MA GF3 series 7x4 with the large venturi, more like 13K with the small one.

As far as fuel goes, just use a bog standard mix :- 25% castor, 33% ether, 2% ignition improver & 40% kero.

A 7x5 or 8x4 would be reasonable as well. I wouldn't go above that. FWIW the prop that the MK 17 was originally supplied with was a 7x5.

The MK 17 seems to be very unfussy about fuel too. Mine has run very well indeed on fuel without ignition improver that my PAWs did not like at all. I wouldn't make a habit of it though ...

cheers,
Colin

[image]http://controlline.org.uk/userupload/953/mk-17_(3).jpg[/image]

[image]http://controlline.org.uk/userupload/953/mk-17_(4).jpg[/image]

[image]http://controlline.org.uk/userupload/953/mk-17_(6).jpg[/image]



steve111 -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/21/2010 12:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Diesel Fan



Odd then that prop size has been recommended before without question on this same forum.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4592462/tm.htm
Witness post 3.




I guess if I'd seen it I'd have questioned it. [8D]

My understanding is that it isn't good particularly practice to put a big load on new engines when running them in - but I'm happy to be corrected.



Mr Cox -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/21/2010 2:46 PM)

On diesels, a larger prop actually puts on a lower load than a small prop does, if the compression is backed out accordingly. The larger prop then uses a lower compression ratio and also produces less power and heat at its lower revs, so all in all a lower load although a bit counter intuitive perhaps. Glows are different as the compression ration is not that easily changed.

For a 1,5cc diesel, a 10x4 sounds a bit over the top, I think a 9x4 would be about the largest, and the 7x5 and 8x4 are certainly ok too. It is also a bit brand/type related, not all props are made the same. Some engines tend to have a "memory effect", or maybe it is just my imagination, if you start out on a big prop that's what that engine will like in the future too.




gcb -> RE: starting an MK 17 for first time (8/21/2010 4:05 PM)

I think I broke mine in on 9x4 wood props. It has been several years so I'm not absolutely sure.

One thing I did not see mentioned is that the thrust washer does not "grab" props very well. I used wooden props because you need to tighten nylon props more than I like, to prevent slipping.

Mine seem to have adequate fuel draw on both the large and small venturies.

As far as fuels, I was using Davis and Aerodyne. Both worked well.

George




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