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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/25/2012 1:02 PM   
JohnF


 

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Status: offline 		Martin, I used the Floetrol also and found it at Home Depot. I also used auto. windshield wiper fluid and the latex sprayed great on my Aviatik 30.40. The Floetrol helps the paint to lay out in humid conditions also.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/25/2012 1:30 PM   
geezeraviation


 

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Status: offline 		Flotril in a must for spraying or brushing/rolling latex. You should experiment with the amount to add, the guidelines on the bottle are just that. Different colors tend to be different viscosities and need the percentages adjusted.
Doc

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/25/2012 6:59 PM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Evan, I think you are talking about German printed covering which indeed does show through in strong sunlight. I am doing Austro-Hungarian painted lozenge. I can find no reference to an Aviatik in the Shuttleworth collection.

http://www.shuttleworth.org/shuttleworth-collection/aircraft.asp

Martin

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/25/2012 9:09 PM   
pimmnz


 

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Status: offline 		Well, I know the used to fly one, but I think it's gone back to the RAF museum. I will find the magazine for you and see if I can scan the piccies. It was a printed lozenge covering, so it might not be of much help for you. Apparently the aiplane was the oldest original German WW1 airplane still flying, at the time.
Evan.

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       Post #: 129

RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/26/2012 1:54 AM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Ahh, That's the LVG CVI. That has German printed fabric. It was a dark set of colours on top and a lighter set underneath. Could thid be what you are thinking of?

http://www.airliners.net/photo/LVG-CVI/0806508/L/

http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/airshow/2003/Shut030907/800/pages/188%20LVG%20C.VI.htm

Here are the colours and pattern of the 5 colour version:

http://www.military-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313

Martin

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/26/2012 5:20 AM   
pimmnz


 

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Status: offline 		Yes, Martin, silly me. Thats the thing. As I said, might not do for you, but good for the printed fabric types. But I do wonder if even the sprayed coloured dope finishes would have had any greater colour density? I am only guessing, but the colour would have been applied after the fabric sealer coats, indoors most likely, and with an eye on weight build-up...probably not a heavy pigment application...
Evan.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/26/2012 1:46 PM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Well, as you can see from the photos with backlighting, the finish I have is not opaque. I think a coat or two of silver as a primer would have been needed. I'm going to just paint the hexagons over what I have now and am pretty confident I'll be happy with the result.

I've been doing some on-line research about clearcoat top coating. The grey nose and struts are done in Tamiya model enamel which I don't think is gasoline proof. The latex colours will be fine. It looks like Klass Kote is the best overcoat to even out the overall finish, but I need to let the latex cure for at least a month to ensure proper adhesion.

Martin

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/27/2012 12:32 PM   
JohnF


 

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Status: offline 		Martin, Nelson Hobbies has a clear coat that is fuel proof and worked perfectly on the latex. That's what I used. Don't know if he is still in business however.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/27/2012 12:57 PM   
geezeraviation


 

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Status: offline 		Nelson Hobbies is in fact operating, under new ownership and the water based urethane paints are again available.
www.nelsonhobby.com
Doc

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/27/2012 1:02 PM   
JohnF


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Doc, that's good news.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/27/2012 1:12 PM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Good news indeed!

Martin

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/30/2012 4:01 AM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		The hexagons start!

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 3/30/2012 12:39 PM   
JohnF


 

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/5/2012 8:49 PM   
pimmnz


 

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Status: offline 		Matin, I have in my hand the June 1959 Aeromodeller, where there is a Berg D1 described, particularly the regular hexagon camo. It describes a 9 colour repeat pattern, a 5 colour repeat, a 4 colour repeat and a 3 colour repeat. All on the one airplane. He (the observer) cannot tell if the wing fabric is sprayed or printed (dust on the upper surfaces), but the fuselage and tailplane is definitley spray painted. Wing and tail undersurfaces plain fabric, bottom surface of the fuselage pale blue. Colourful airplane.
Evan, WB #12.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/5/2012 10:36 PM   
JohnF


 

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Status: offline 		There was a very lengthy discussion about the hex camo. colors and pattern over at www.theaerodrome.com awhile ago. Martin, you might try doing a search in the models forum. You will find the answer you seek.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/6/2012 2:00 AM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks John,Evan.

I am using a profile from the JaPo book and have matched colours to that. The wing and tail colours are based on the information in the 1986 Cross and Cockade series on Austro-Hungarian aircraft by Martin O'Connor. I have just about got the hexagons finished, so I'll get it assembled and photo'd this weekend.

The Aeromodeller article is interesting. It sounds like a description of the Knoller CII in Vienna, the only original hex scheme in existence, before it was "restored"(ruined). My understanding was that usually there was a 3+3 light/dark pattern, with the wings and fuselage having different combinations. Occasionally, there was a 4 colour pattern used, (as seems to be the case with mine). This complicates things, as does the rotation of the basic pattern and random insertion of different colours! A somewhat simplified article is here:

http://www.ww1aero.org.au/pdfs/Sample%20Journal%20Articles/Tarnstoff2004.pdf

Please note that the colours don't seem to display properly, and there are no Methuen or Munsell equivalents listed.

All in all, way too complicated for a model airplane, but the research is part of the fun. One thing I try to keep in mind for this sort of thing is :
a) what is the purpose? - in this case, camouflage - so the results need to have some hiding qualities, perhaps at a distance and
b) how would a country at war paint planes efficiently and cheaply? In this case labour must have been cheap!

Martin

< Message edited by Nieuport nut -- 4/6/2012 5:05 AM >

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/6/2012 2:17 AM   
pimmnz


 

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Status: offline 		Martin, the article states the Knoller is 'hanging in the Prague Technical Museum'. Built by Lohner. And yes, there are greyscale photos of indeterminate quality of the Berg and Knoller. The description applies to the Knoller. There are no colour codes, just a short description of each shade. Enough generalisation to be able to reproduce 'accurately!' Patterns are provided to show the colour juxtapositions.
Evan, WB #12.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/6/2012 3:27 AM   
JohnF


 

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Status: offline 		Martin, The only thing that really matters is that you are satisfied with your effort. It is all subjective. The second edition of the Austro-Hungarian Army Aircraft of World war One book has a statement by Peter Grosz that describes the reason for not including any color reference. It reads, " There is no doubt that the fabric samples on which the color determinations were based had not been taken from World war One Austro-Hungarian aircraft". It is also accepted that previous color determinations made by Dr. O'Conner were erroneous. So, whatever you do will be as accurate as anyone can know.

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/6/2012 4:03 PM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Evan, Windsock magazine has been pretty good on the Knoller - I have several articles, (somewhere!) And yes, my mistake, it is in Prague.

John, you are so right - the toughest judge is the modeller himself! I have one of the first editions of the A-H Aircraft books so I have the colour profiles. I think Grosz threw the baby out with the bathwater when they eliminated the profiles from the second edition. While the Gerrard fabric collection has been thrown into disrepute, some of them were undoubtedly authentic, and his fakes were based on other's authentic examples. A strong caution regarding the profiles would have allowed the reader to decide accuracy. Certainly CDL schemes would be OK.

Your 30.40 is a good example in that the greys were only recently shown to be original - until recently they were thought to be olive green and brown. Only the restoration of the DI in Vienna and the uncovering of protected paint samples showed that the original two tone grey had deteriorated to olive and brown. I would never have thought such a dramatic shift would have occurred. Goes to show how careful we need to be interpreting original examples. The verbal descriptions from the period, while limited in their precision, are at least not changed by atmospheric oxidization!

Lots of fun to research and ponder, but in the end only for our personal satisfaction.

Now, I've got to go and install control runs in my toy airplane.

Martin

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/7/2012 6:17 PM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Painting's done so it's assembly time and rigging time. This is the first time I've had it all together in 6 months, (and I still have the engine out). The control lines and underside panelling is complete but the hatch is still to be fitted.

Overall, I'm quite happy with how the the hex camouflage turned out. The Behr paint is great but it is important to brush it right out rather than trying for "one coat coverage". Any place that I didn't get it brushed out shows up as heavier brush marks, just like the walls at home. In a monthe, after the paint has had time to cure completely, I'll shoot a clearcoat over everything. By then the weathering will hopefully completed.

Martin

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/7/2012 8:05 PM   
Teus



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Status: offline 		Just beautiful..............

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/7/2012 8:31 PM   
TKFOKKER


 

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Very, very nice, great job! I can't wait to see it at Rhinebeck!!
TK

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/7/2012 8:56 PM   
Nieuport nut


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Teus, I'm starting to think about what to build next to use those exquisite turnbuckles of yours.

Thanks Tom. Are you rebuilding that lovely old Morane for the Jamboree? Or is the new 50% GTM DrI taking all your time?

Rigging is complete.

Martin

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/8/2012 1:16 AM   
TKFOKKER


 

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The morane is junk, too badly damaged to trust flying, and way too old. That model is 24, it flew at Rhinebeck for 20 years! So I just kinda glued it back together and will be donating it to the museum up on the hill at ORA this sept. So yes I did start the 1/2 scale triplane but put it aside for a short period to rebuild my first 1/4 scale plane that is 34 years old. A Balsa USA cub. I am doing it in Army silver and yellow training colors this time. It's almost done so after that I will get back on the triplane project. I really miss flying the old cub, it was damaged 9 years ago and was collecting dust in the attic, so I took her down to the shop 3 weeks ago and stripped her down. I'm really excited about having it back in flying condition for it's the plane that made me the R/C pilot I am today. Plus my friends in Fla. who come to Rhinebeck also are building cubs for evening flying at the Aerodrome!!!
TK

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RE: Aviatik DI build - 4/8/2012 12:38 PM   
JohnF


 

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Status: offline 		Absolutely outstanding Martin! It is a show stopper. If you want a good project for those nice turnbuckles you might consider a Phoenix D.II/III.

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