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Latest jet- The Vortex 32

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Old 07-23-2008, 06:59 PM
  #1  
Rube Goldberg
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Default Latest jet- The Vortex 32

Has anybody seen one of these in person? Supposed to weigh in at 4.6 lbs.-I sent a fellow modeler to the Nitroplanes site to take a look as he's a turbine type, said it looked very similar-perhaps just a couple inches smaller in wingspan to a turbine jet kit from Spain from a few years back that another fellow modeler built and flew a couple weeks ago......at about 17 lbs.!

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Old 07-23-2008, 09:33 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

http://www.nitroplanes.com/20nimiamvo32.html
Man that thing is ... um... very good looking!
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:28 AM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

I agree

The red white and blue one with the stars is just a bit....how would you say...... "Pole Cattish" for me. The white one looks really nice, and with a little duct work for cooling *that* thing is begging for an OS Wankel!

Rube

*that* is scheduled to be "this" come next Monday
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:46 AM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

Well, "Brown" delivered my new Vortex 32 on Monday as scheduled. Initial thoughts:

I ordered the "white' version. The trim scheme is similar to that shown with an additional piece of trim on the wings. The blue is much darker than the one as advertised, and the bottom of the wings and the stabilzer are trimmed same as the "miss america" version. Build quality is quite nice. The fiberglass fuselage section is really nicely done. Weights:

Fuselage and canopy 14 oz.
Stab 3 oz.
both wings 15 oz.
both booms 8 oz.
bag of hardware 7 oz.

That works out to be 47 ounces total; according to the manufacturer ready to fly weight spec'd at 4.6 lbs. or about 74 ounces. That leaves me right at 27 ounces for power and radio gear. Won't need much glue other than the hinges. This thing pretty much just bolts together and could be built in a few hours easy.

The "rub". This model was apparently designed for electric power only. No fuel tank, no engine mounts are included. No surprise on those two items as they are not depicted in the advertisement. The firewall in the rear is pretty beefy and is laser cut for an electric motor radial mount. Given that the typical 32-40 size glow comparable brushless motor is going to weigh in the 6 ounce range, and the batteries needed to get 700 watts are going to be large and heavy-mounted near the nose of the fuselage the use of a glow 32-40 size engine is going to be a difficult task as they typically weigh 12-18 ounces. That means the nose is going to have to be LOADED with a LOT of weight. The ply former for the nose gear is pre-installed but it does have some lightening holes laser cut. I suppose one could fill forward of the nose gear with lead shot and then seal it off with silicon sealent-just in case you wanted to remove the lead to go to an electric setup.
So it comes down to either a light electric motor behind the CG with heavy batteries forward of the CG and at 700 watts a lot of $$$ in batteries and a very short flight time-I would guess 5 minutes maximum, or a much heavier glow engine and a lot of weight in the nose but much longer flight times.
I suppose at this point I'm just going to have to fit it all together and put about 2 or 3 ounces on the tail to simulate the weight of the 4 servos/extension leads that are mounted in the rear of the booms for elevator and rudder control (HS-81's should fit and are about the lightest I've found), plop a glow engine where it belongs, a flight pack battery just behind the nose gear mount area and then start hanging weight from the nose to acheive the proper CG.

Again, really nicely done model, just thought I'd pass on my initial thoughts to those thinking of purchasing this one!

Rube
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:27 AM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

Hey Rube

Just wondering if you got that thing put together yet?






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Old 08-09-2008, 02:54 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

Yes, I have pretty much finished the build. I'm going to try it with electric power first as the firewall in the rear of the plane is built to accomodate an X mount of a brushless motor. The firewall was already glued in place. Interesting enough, there are a few plywood pieces the also fit in the fuselage that are not depicted in either the hardware of the advertisement or the instruction manual. One is a semicircle piece that spans the width of the fuselage a few inches forward of the firewall, another semicircle piece that fits against the back of the firewall (forward when viewed in the plane) and a couple hardwood rails that fit along the inside of the fuselage between the two ply pieces. What it appears to be is an option for a large ducted fan.
I'm going to use a Scorpion 3020-12 for power, and here is another "rub" if you will on that:

I can tell you that using an 11" prop more than likely the prop is going to hit the ground when you rotate on takeoff. This particular motor should do well with a 9 or 10 inch prop running on 4 cell lipos. For 3 cell lipos it's going to have use a 12 or 13 inch prop to acheive similar results.
It comes down to either running the small prop with 4 cells or making new landing gear wires that are much taller and even using larger wheels to go with the larger diameter prop on 3 cells.

Jury is still out until I fly it. If it only manages less than 5 minutes flight time on 4S 3000mah lipos then I'm probably going to wind up crafting a new firewall that fits a bit forward of the one that was factory installed and use a glow engine. I think a Super Tigre G34 would be just the ticket. The OS Wankel would fit nicely as it is, the ST extends quite a ways beyond the rear of the fuselage on the existing firewall.

The model is really nice. The fuselage is really high quality and the canopy attachment is well thought out. Everything fit together well. Other than that, I'd say the jury is still out on the overall model.

Rube
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:21 AM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

For those following this thread, the Vortex 32 is ready to fly. Here is my setup:

4~HS-81 servos in the booms for the elevator and rudders. With maximum throw on the servo arms/horns of the rudders they don't appear to deflect very far. I'm not sure they're really going to be effective. Might have to go to a 3D style servo arm to get effective throw. The cut-outs in the booms were pretty much an exact fit for these servos, although as the servos were just bit too deep up high in the vertical fins for the elevators and would have protruded through to the outside of the fins, I used a piece of 1/8" X 1/4" spruce atop the servo mounting plates/below the servo mounting lugs to effectively block up the servos. The fins are thick enough down low where the rudder servos fit so those were fine.

2~Futaba 3004 servos in the wing for the ailerons. Again, nearly an exact fit.

1~Futaba 3003 for the nose gear. Needed a bit of weight in the nose so this was a logical fit.

Futaba FP-R127DF 8 channel receiver. Forego the servo Y harness and plug one aileron into channel 1 and the other on 6. Employed flaperons just in case.
A note about servo extensions and Y harnesses: You'll need 4 of the 24" inch extensions for the servos in the rear of the booms. That will make them just long enough to go through the wing and into the fuselage. The Aileron servo leads are long enough to just make it into the fuselage. Used a pair of 6" leads on them to get them forward to the receiver. For the Y harnesses: You'll need one of the "servo reversing-adjustable synchronizable" Y harnesses for the elevator servos, unless you put the linkage on the upper arm on one servo and the lower arm on the other. You're going to need 2 standard Y harnesses for the rudder, one to Y the 2 rudders together and then a Y into that Y to include the nose gear servo.

Power is a Scorpion 30-12T brushless motor with a Scorpion 70 Amp ESC. Should be able to turn a 9 or 10" prop for sufficient power with the pair of Zippy 2S 3000 lipo packs wired in series. BEC disabled and going with a Futaba square receiver battery to run the radio. With 3 standard size servos and 4 mini servos I don't want to rely on the BEC.

Ready to fly weight came in at a whopping 81 ounces. That includes 68 ounces of aircraft + 13 ounces of lipo batteries. About 7 ounces overweight of advertised spec.

Most disappointing part of the model: The plastic rear cover over the top of the fuselage. It is made oversized with a molded line for where to cut it to fit. To be safe, I cut it just a bit outside the lines and then used a sanding block to true it up to fit the fuselage. Sanding the edges caused the paint to start flaking off.....so some parts of it are now clear[:@] If all goes well I'll just repaint it with some enamel.

Will add some photos before it flies and report back on flight!

Rube
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:05 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

Well, GOOD news and BAD news:

The GOOD: Maiden flight of the Vortex 32 this afternoon. Used about 150' of paved runway and adding just a touch of up elevator she zoomed off like a rocket ship at about a 30-40 degree angle to about 100' AGL where I backed out of it to about 70% power. IF I ever had a plane "fly off the drawing board" this one is it. Only trim needed was 1 click of up elevator!
Flew around at about 50% power and she flies like shes on rails-just like a pattern plane with NO bad tendencies anywhere. I was STOKED! Set my timer for 4 minutes, but landed early, probably about a 3 minute flight. I'm charging the Zippys' as I type, the first one needed about 700mah to get back to 8.45 volts; the batteries measured 8.20 pre-flight. So I think with some throttle management I should get 7 or 8 minute flight times with these 3000mah packs. Landing was a non event. Brought her in a bit on the hot side and just floated down the runway no power before flairing to a pretty good landing. Suggested throws were not too much and from the limited flight I can say that the published CG is good.

The BAD: If you don't order one of these from Nitroplanes pretty darn quick you're gonna miss the boat on a really fine model! Two thumbs up for the Fly-Model Factory and Nitroplanes!

Ok, as promised....some photos. Enjoy! Couple of them with my E-Flite Taylorcraft.

Rube
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:53 AM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

Hey Rube

Congratulations on the maiden flight....
Are you still going to convert to glow?.....if so....will you take a few pictures along the way?

Also,...how hard would it be to fit retracts on this model?

Thanks


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Old 08-17-2008, 01:08 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

CrashPro,

I don't think it would be too difficult to add retracts to this model, and the glow powered conversion is in the planning stages at this point.

Flight #2 was yesterday afternoon. This time I set my timer for 5 minutes and had a spotter watch the clock. Made some high speed passes and flew around at about 50% power with plenty of speed, probably averaged 70% power for the duration of the flight. Landed fine at about 4:30 on the clock, taxied back and shut her down. Charging the 3000mah cells on the Watts-Up meter revealed that I had used right at about 1200mah/battery, so I think with throttle management 10 minute flight times on a pair of 7.4V 3000mah LiPos wired in series to make 14.8V should be capable with this ESC/motor/prop combo. At an ambient temperature of about 88F the ESC was quite warm/borderline hot, the motor was very warm to the touch and the batteries weren't even warm. Plan on flying again this afternoon.

If you can fly an Ultrastik, you can fly this model. It is just that stable and the landings are actually pretty slow. I think that has a lot to do with the thick wing. Here is the link to the Scorpion motor specs that I'm using. The first two flights have been with an APC 10X5E prop, there are a couple of other props that should give better performance-but since the motor is new I didn't want to load it too hard just yet.


http://innov8tivedesigns.com/Scorpio...12%20Specs.htm


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Old 08-17-2008, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

How do you like those "Zippy's"?

I purchased the Rhino versions and find them to be excellent. I'm flying the Bobcat .25 with the 4S1P 14.8v 3700mAh pack, using an 873KV motor and a 8x6 prop.
The little "jet" screams this way... flight times around 10+ minutes @ 650+ watts power 45-50Amps.

I'm also using the Nitro Planes Monster Power .25 motor and the same Zippies on a Diamante, but with a bigger prop giving me 700 watts 58Amps.

The Zippies/Rhinos don't even get WARM!

The Monster Power .25 is excellent, it's only drawback is that it is about 1.5oz heavier than competitor's motors, but hey, for the price, no problem!

No vibration issues, the motor checks out to be very smooth.

I guess after your experience I'll have to get a Vortex too, as I have the right packs for it.
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:48 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?


ORIGINAL: CrashPro

Hey Rube

Congratulations on the maiden flight....
Are you still going to convert to glow?.....if so....will you take a few pictures along the way?

Also,...how hard would it be to fit retracts on this model?

Thanks


Ok, so the inevitable has been asked! As the Vortex 32 is apparently initially set up for electric power, and many of us that fly glow planes (aka "slimers" by the electric crowd) might consider adding this model to their hangar were it to be glow powered, I have made a deal with John at Nitroplanes. I requested John to "make me a deal that I can't refuse" in exchange for detailing the procedures/mods required to build a glow powered Vortex 32 and John has responded in a most positive way. Tomorrow I should take delivery of the second Vortex 32 and over the next several days following I will live up to my end of the deal and we'll build a glow powered Vortex 32 complete with photos etc.

Thank You John, and stay tuned glow powered fans!

Rube
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Old 08-22-2008, 10:54 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

Very cool, Rube......looking forward to seeing pictures and report on your modifications of the Vortex.
I'm hoping a set of retracts goes in this model reasonably easy....
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Old 08-25-2008, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

That plane is pretty cool. i would love to see some video and see how fast she is. I am sure it'll never be a rocketship, but would like to see if there is a need for me to go with a bigger power package.

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Old 08-29-2008, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

I have a 5 minute old EFlite Power 32 (yeah, there's a sad story there) that I have been scheming to use in an interesting airframe - like the Vortex. Problem is, it needs to swing at least an 11" prop to make wattage. I understand the ground clearance issue and think I could get long legs figured out, but need to ask: what is the inside dimension between tail booms?
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Old 08-29-2008, 09:34 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

lowenslo: Just go with a 3 blade prop.

It's not quite as efficient doing it this way, but it works just fine. You'll loose a little bit of top end compared to a 2 blade combo, and it will be a bit noiser, but that's all you'll notice.

I did this with my Falcon .25 and it screams....

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Old 08-30-2008, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

....but need to ask: what is the inside dimension between tail booms?

Inside dimension between the tail booms at the prop area is 17-3/8" (Seventeen and three eights inches). So an 18" prop might be just a tad too big. I would suggest that if you are planning on using the E-Flite Power 32 with an 11" prop it would be a 10 minute modification to bend a new pair of main gear wires and as I have the nose gear in it's lowest position with the wire coil just clearing the bottom of the fuselage I don't think it would be a problem to lower the position of the supplied nose gear wire to raise the nose of the model for your taller main gear. As it is now, the nose gear wire on my model extends about 1/4" above the upper bearing block-so it can be lowered quite a bit as it is. Otherwise, as opjose says, a 3 blade prop is a good option.

I've started working on the glow powered Vortex-32 while I wait for Tower Hobbies to get me a 90 degree muffler adapter for an OS engine and a few pusher props. In the mean time I've modified an older K&B 40 to actually run backwards using a tractor prop installed backwards. I'll have to post a picture of that. I think the old K&Bs make a lot more power than the current offering of 40 size engines; the downside being they aren't readily available at your local hobby shop and rather pricey at Mecoa.com, the upside being if you've been a modeler for several years you've probably got one laying around holding something down and they are very inexpensive at your local swap meet and ebay. The fact that it runs backwards doesn't limit you to the current offering of pusher props which is probably the best thing.
For what its worth, apparently you can get a reverse rotation crankshaft for the K&B 40 from Mecoa ( didn't need it for my modification), and it appears Fox makes a reverse rotation crank for the Fox 40 engines.

The ultimate goal is to find a glow engine that can swing a 9 or 10" prop, make a lot of power and most of all be lightweight. It might be that the new OS 35AX fits the bill.....at first glance it looks a bit pricey but if you add up the cost of just a good brushless motor and 70A speed control it's about the same money. And you won't need lipo batteries as well.

I'm planning on getting some more work done on this, the next few days are going to be hectic as I live in Central Mississippi and have siblings living in New Orleans that are pretty much freaking out over hurrican Gustav at this point.

Rube
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Old 08-30-2008, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32?

Hmmm...3 blade prop - gee, that sounds like a no-brainer (no wonder I didn't think of that[sm=confused.gif]). Thanks for that Opjose.
And it's really good to know that a big 2 blade is an option - thanks Rube!
Guess I'm out of excuses for denying myself this new model...
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:03 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet- The Vortex 32

Ok it's been a week or so since I've done anything with the glow powered Vortex 32 conversion. I finally received the 90 degree exhaust adapter for an OS LA 40/46 engine from Tower Hobbies, and I've cut a new firewall that fits about an inch and a half or so in front of the original firewall.
I think the logical thing to do at this point is a quick check of how much weight we're going to need in the nose of the fuselage to acheive the proper CG of the entire model. Given that my electric version of the Vortex 32 is flying fine at the suggested CG, what I plan on doing is removing the tail, the booms and the wings from the electric model. After all this is removed, I am going to install the Lipo batteries in their proper position and then find the CG of the fuselage itself. We'll mark that point and then with the new fuselage with the glow engine in the rear start moving things such as the receiver battery pack and adding weight to achieve the same CG of the fuselage. Given that the Lipos weigh about 13 ounces, the ESC about 2 ounces and the brushless motor about 6 ounces that gives me a total of 21 ounces for electric power. The OS 40LA with the muffler should weigh in the 14 ounce range, so if 7 ounces of weight in the nose acheives the correct CG it's pretty much a wash with regard to wing loading not including fuel very near the CG.
Plan on taking some photos hopefully this evening.

Rube
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Old 09-12-2008, 06:52 PM
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Default RE: Latest jet- The Vortex 32

Any more progress Rube?
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:27 AM
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Default RE: Latest jet- The Vortex 32

Good news and not so good news.

The Good: Had a chance to get out to the flying field this past Friday afternoon for a few minutes and fly the electric Vortex 32. First flight I managed to inhale a small rock into the prop and and broke the tip on take off. Flew anyway. That was the APC 10X5 I have been using since the beginning. Didn't have another 10X5 on hand so I went with the "monster prop" being an APC 11X5.5 and what a difference that was! I've now got unlimited vertical and other than the sound I think the electric Vortex 32 performs speed wise comparable to a similar sized turbine model. A fellow flyer was there who had seen it fly before and commented "THAT was VERY IMPRESSIVE!" It definitely lands a lot better than any turbine model I've seen as the wing loading is still a very respectable 26 oz./square foot. It really is a floater on the landings. Just dead stick the motor on final and she glides right in.

The not so good: I managed to perform the balancing act I had detailed in the post above, and found that in order to acheive the correct CG of the fuselage I'm going to need about 17-19 ounces of weight in the nose between the nose gear former and the front of the servo tray in order to compensate for the weight of an OS 40LA and muffler. This means the wing loading is going to go up to about 32 ounces/ square foot and I'm not real enthused about that. But that is the plan and I'm going to try it anyway.

I happened to take another look at the included plywood parts that fit in the fuselagethe semi-circle pieces and the hardwood rails....the diameter of the semi-circle is just a shade larger than 3~1/2", so I think the intention here was for an electric ducted fan. That might work, but from my limited experience with ducted fans I should think you'd have to create a thrust tube behind the fan extending rearward from the rear of the fuselage to achieve good performance. I don't think you'll find a 3.5 inch ducted fan that can match the published thrust of the Scorpion outrunner motor turning the 11X5.5 prop which is supposed to be 102.75 ounces, which is right at a pound more thrust than as spec'd with the 10X5 both running 4S lipos. At 81 ounces RTF that's a 1.27 thrust to weight ratio.

Will follow up with the glow conversion.

Rube
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:56 AM
  #22  
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Default RE: Latest jet- The Vortex 32

Any updates on your conversion? Thanks, Rich
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Old 11-10-2008, 12:16 PM
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hi I need to now if on the inside is 4.5 inches in space betwen walls and 3 inches on the rear hole I will like to do a edf conversion to that baby hope to hear from you soon dany fernandez
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Old 11-30-2008, 01:37 AM
  #24  
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I will be ordering one of these in a few minutes, for $68 I can't let that pass me by. At this point, I am worried I will be getting in over my head. Reason being, I am a RTF guy and have been for the last year. I only have one kit, a GWS Quad Cargo Transport (that C-130) which I have going just fine, I still need to get a few servos and mount the motors and electrics in, thats basically it. I can fly just about anything, no problem flying its the building of an ARF that worries the heck out of me. Mainly my concern is the selection of electronics for the plane. I was looking at that monster power 32 brushless outrunner, I imagine that would be a good motor but I am only ordering the plane for now. I am surprised I never seen any videos on youtube for this plane. I was also considering the Bobcat 25 but the Vortex 32 is bigger and looks alot better at only about $15 more so I am leaning on that one. Well, I am going to take the dive because I am personally tired of foam park flyer planes I have all of the good ones and this time I am wanting something nice. At last, I am an electric guy so I will try to stay with electrics at least for now. Well, I better get off here and go place my order before they take the sale down.
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Old 11-30-2008, 02:06 AM
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Order has been placed. [X(] Hope I can swim!
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