Will the plane fly?
08-03-2007, 12:18 PM
#28
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hamilton,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
RE: Will the plane fly?
Ron, if the plane is not strapped down in anyway, the prop is going to pull it forward.
Does my treadmill with rollerblades idea make any sense to you back a few posts. I won't let this go until you understand why the plane will take off.
Ryan
Does my treadmill with rollerblades idea make any sense to you back a few posts. I won't let this go until you understand why the plane will take off.
Ryan
08-03-2007, 12:24 PM
#29
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: PDX, OR
Posts: 1,664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Will the plane fly?
The wheels and bearings Isolate the motion of the airplane from the motion of the tread mill.
So the treadmill has no "drag" on the airplane at all.
This is clearly demonstrated by the video experiment by the elementary school boy and his father.
Despite the fact that the treadmill was easily running ten times as fast as that toy plane could travel on the ground, the propeller was able to pull the vehicle to the front of the treadmill.
The wheels isolated the the motion of the treadmill from the thrust of the propeller.
If this experiment were to be recreated with a longer treadmill the plane would eventually get up enough speed to take off.
[edit]
The roller blades and rope are a good example also.[8D]
So the treadmill has no "drag" on the airplane at all.
This is clearly demonstrated by the video experiment by the elementary school boy and his father.
Despite the fact that the treadmill was easily running ten times as fast as that toy plane could travel on the ground, the propeller was able to pull the vehicle to the front of the treadmill.
The wheels isolated the the motion of the treadmill from the thrust of the propeller.
If this experiment were to be recreated with a longer treadmill the plane would eventually get up enough speed to take off.
[edit]
The roller blades and rope are a good example also.[8D]
08-03-2007, 12:28 PM
#30
RE: Will the plane fly?
Sorry Umi, but that video was about as unscientific as it gets as the kid had control over the speed of the plane which could not have been a constant so to me didn't prove anything as neither did another plane on a conveyor video of a toy plane that wasn't made to fly in the first place but only roll around on the floor.
08-03-2007, 01:36 PM
#31
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hamilton,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 5,522
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
RE: Will the plane fly?
ORIGINAL: ryan_t888
Ron, if the plane is not strapped down in anyway, the prop is going to pull it forward.
Does my treadmill with rollerblades idea make any sense to you back a few posts. I won't let this go until you understand why the plane will take off.
Ryan
Ron, if the plane is not strapped down in anyway, the prop is going to pull it forward.
Does my treadmill with rollerblades idea make any sense to you back a few posts. I won't let this go until you understand why the plane will take off.
Ryan
08-03-2007, 01:41 PM
#32
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: ft.lauderdale,
FL
Posts: 944
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Will the plane fly?
ORIGINAL: ryan_t888
No guys, you are thinking tooooo hard.
The plane will completely take off as normal. An observer would not know the difference of a plane on a conveyor vs a plane not on a conveyor. It will take the same amount of runway space either way assuming no friction in wheel bearings, wheels. They can spin as fast as they want.
Think of it as you standing on a long tread mill with roller blades on. You are also holding on to a rope that will simulate prop thrust. The treadmill begins to turn and you tug the rope tight. The rollerblades wheels are "free running" just like the planes wheels.
Now we accelerate the treadmill as fast as you want. Are you going to be able to pull yourself forward using the rope? (rope simulates prop thrust) Think about this realisticly.
Like I said before, this is a tough concept for most to grasp. The question makes you think the plane will stay in one spot but this is totally untrue. The plane WILL move.
Now if this was a car, it would not be able to work as the cars power is transmitted to the ground, and the ground would be moving to match the wheel speed.
Why is that? Is the plane strapped to the ground or what is holding it back? Remember prop thrust or jet thrust is in relation to the Atmosphere not the conveyor. Your take off logic is correct but the fact that the conveyor does not represent wind speed makes all the difference.
A plane does not use its wheels to keep up with speed, it uses air thrust. The conveyor does not represent air thrust. It only affects the wheels, which will turn freely in their bearings.
THIS QUESTION TOTALLY ROCKS!
Ryan
No guys, you are thinking tooooo hard.
The plane will completely take off as normal. An observer would not know the difference of a plane on a conveyor vs a plane not on a conveyor. It will take the same amount of runway space either way assuming no friction in wheel bearings, wheels. They can spin as fast as they want.
Think of it as you standing on a long tread mill with roller blades on. You are also holding on to a rope that will simulate prop thrust. The treadmill begins to turn and you tug the rope tight. The rollerblades wheels are "free running" just like the planes wheels.
Now we accelerate the treadmill as fast as you want. Are you going to be able to pull yourself forward using the rope? (rope simulates prop thrust) Think about this realisticly.
Like I said before, this is a tough concept for most to grasp. The question makes you think the plane will stay in one spot but this is totally untrue. The plane WILL move.
Now if this was a car, it would not be able to work as the cars power is transmitted to the ground, and the ground would be moving to match the wheel speed.
ORIGINAL: Flabum
If the plane were propeller driven, only a small amount of the wings would be affected by the prop wash and would not provide enough lift for take off. If the plane were powered by jet engines, there would be no air flowing past the wings since all the air would be going through the engine.
If the plane were propeller driven, only a small amount of the wings would be affected by the prop wash and would not provide enough lift for take off. If the plane were powered by jet engines, there would be no air flowing past the wings since all the air would be going through the engine.
A plane does not use its wheels to keep up with speed, it uses air thrust. The conveyor does not represent air thrust. It only affects the wheels, which will turn freely in their bearings.
THIS QUESTION TOTALLY ROCKS!
Ryan
08-03-2007, 05:42 PM
#33
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: melbournevictora, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Will the plane fly?
why do carriers use catapults then rather than a treadmill?
me personally dont' think that there will be any flow over the wings therefore no lift therefore no take off
me personally dont' think that there will be any flow over the wings therefore no lift therefore no take off
08-03-2007, 06:16 PM
#34
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: ft.lauderdale,
FL
Posts: 944
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Will the plane fly?
ORIGINAL: aussiebud
why do carriers use catapults then rather than a treadmill?
me personally dont' think that there will be any flow over the wings therefore no lift therefore no take off
why do carriers use catapults then rather than a treadmill?
me personally dont' think that there will be any flow over the wings therefore no lift therefore no take off
08-03-2007, 07:43 PM
#35
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: PDX, OR
Posts: 1,664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Will the plane fly?
ORIGINAL: Ron Olson
Sorry Umi, but that video was about as unscientific as it gets as the kid had control over the speed of the plane which could not have been a constant so to me didn't prove anything as neither did another plane on a conveyor video of a toy plane that wasn't made to fly in the first place but only roll around on the floor.
Sorry Umi, but that video was about as unscientific as it gets as the kid had control over the speed of the plane which could not have been a constant so to me didn't prove anything as neither did another plane on a conveyor video of a toy plane that wasn't made to fly in the first place but only roll around on the floor.
if you say so....
I won't try to explain any further how the wheels isolate the plane form the treadmill rather than connect the two...
08-04-2007, 12:18 AM
#36
RE: Will the plane fly?
lmao, I just got it, why it was such a hard thing to grasp?.....no idea. I really was concentrating on the details of the question when it's so obvious. The conveyor is completely arbitrary, unless the bearings in the wheels arent very good. [8D]
