Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

I wonder if they have posed the question. Would the Union be willing to loan the company money from retirement funds in return for a piece of the action in the company? If the Union would not buy into this to save their own jobs why should the taxpayers be expected to foot the bill.

bingo field

Food for thought, Red..

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

You have to wonder if this question has been posed by our elected representatives and if not, why not?

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I drive a Saturn wagon. Its the best car I have ever had. Its a 2000 model. Thats when UAW workers earned $28 per hour. Now they get $14 per hour.

My Saturn wagon was cheaper than Toyota's. Cheaper than Honda's. Cheaper than Saab's. Cheaper than Volvo's. Cheaper than MB's. Cheaper than BMW's. It was the cheapest wagon on the market. And its been a great car.

Don't believe this is the UAW's fault ! Don't believe those southern congressmen that have import plants in their states. Don't believe those southern congressmen that get their money from Toyoto and Honda, and MB, and BMW, and Volkswagon. Don't believe those southern congressmen that subsidize the imoprt plants in their states. Those congressmen don't represent Americans anymore. They have shown thier true colors. Its time to get rid of those crooked guys !!

There is a reason why Sam Walton insisted that his stores carry only American made products. Sam was right.

Buy American

LSF2298

My Feedback: (4)

Please give us your sources for the per hour wage of the UAW.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Source was a UAW representative inteviewed on a documentary about GM shown on CNN . But the documentary was filmed before the meltdown, wages are likely to go even lower. Most of the documentary was about GM and their Chinese sales. Out of nearly 50 brands in the Chinese marketplace, Buick was number 1. I thought that was amazing. Not many years ago, VW was number 1 and 3 and Detroit wasn't even represented. GM is having great success in the Chinese market.

Which begs the question; Why can GM take capital out of north America to build new plants in China and in Russia, but when the North American market slumps, they can't seem to bring capital back into North America ? Are we really expected to pay for the new plants in China and Russia with this bailout money ? Lets bust the unions, close the plants and move away, and lets have the American tax payer pay for all of it ?

LSF2298

My Feedback: (4)

The report I saw two days ago indicates the total compensation package for the UAW at GM runs about $75.00 per hour. This is not just wages but health benefits, retirement benefits, job bank, ie.. the total cost to GM. It also indicated the cost for the auto manfactures in the South is about $30.00 per hour. The other problem is why should the government take the taxes of the non union workers to bail out the union workers when the goal of the union is to take care of their own?? And I say this not in a political sense, but just from a logical/practical point of view.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I think you have that backward. Why take taxes from union workers to subsidize non-union transplant factories, we did that already.

I'm not saying its a good deal for the tax payers, its not.

I'm just saying that the unions are being made the scapegoats. GM has made money in every market but North America. Why bail them out at all ? And why blame the unions ? They have drained North America dry while building auto plants all over the world. Why can their money only flow one way, out of the country ?


And lets be clear. Its GM North America that is failing. Ford is not. Chrysler is privately owned by Cerberus which has more than enough money to save Chrysler. So it just one of the big 3 and its their north American operations.

That $75 wage was kicked around at first. But once investigated, it didn't hold water. The wages were actually very comparable to the transplants. But the transplants haven't been in business here for 100 years yet. So they don't have nearly the number of retirees or survivors. Also, the UAW and GM came to an agreement for 5.6 billion that removed all healthcare cost from GM. ( and coincidentally GM sold Rupert Murdoch Hughs for about 6 billion.) So GM healthcare cost for employees is gone. So, they are counting health care cost twice if news castors are factoring in healthcare. ITs just wages and retirement now. Lots of retirement. Some day BMW and Volkswagon and Toyota and the rest will have MORE retirees ! I wonder what all of those southern congressmen will do about that,

LSF2298

My Feedback: (4)

Those factories are not transplants. They were built in the US, with US labor and materials and employ US Workers. Why should one US Worker, doing like work, be paid more than another US Worker? And the $75.00 per hour the UAW costs GM in the USA does hold water. It's a simple matter of total amount paid divided by total hours worked. Job Banks ain't cheap. Union chiefs ain't cheap. Union halls ain't cheap. Union meetings in Las Vegas ain't cheap. At one point in our US History, unions were necessary to stand up for the workers, however, as they flexed their economic muscle and convinced the government to enact laws to enforce their rules, they reduced the need for themselves. Thus, they ate their children. If I am not mistaken, the quality of automobiles built in the US today by non union workers is superior to automobiles built by union workers. At least that seems to be what Consumer Reports and other quaility measuring agencies report. I firmly believe the Big 3 automakers are going to be bankrupt, it is just a matter of when and how much taxpayer money is lost in the process. I sincerely hope I am wrong, but my many years of business experience makes me believe that. Anyway, I respect your opinion and thank you for taking an interest in our great country. Many chose to sit on the couch and watch Homer Simpson. They have no idea where this country is heading. Thanks for caring. We may not agree but thank goodness we live in the United States of America and can disagree peaceably.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I think we agree that a bailout would simply be fleecing the American public. ( I think we disagree on whom is doing the fleecing.) Wait 20 years and when the transplants have a 340,000 retirees with pensions, their hourly rate will be calculated at $75 per hour also. Thats not the employees fault. Thats not the unions fault. Thats just what happens when you stay in business for 100 years. Or even 30 years. GM simply has more retirees than the transplants and so their cost are higher. At some point in the future, the transplants will incur the exact same thing. It has nothing to do with unions. It simply a function of how long the company has been in operation. And thus, how many retirees it has. If America decides it wants GM to leave north America, so be it. It will leave, and it will flurish somewhere else, (like China). In China it will be on a level playing field with all the other new auto companies. No one will have retirees. No one will be placed at a disadvantage. But this issue has nothing to do with the unions, (unless you consider retirement an unfair union demand).

And it does appear that many, like yourself, do consider retirement an unfair union demand. The concept of retirement is relatively new, just over 100 years old. But it was generally for the very wealthy and aristocratic crowd , aka management . It may simply not be physable for the masses. That is the issue being decided now. Will retirement be for the masses ? If so, then level the field. If not, kick GM out. Choose wisely.

The Euro-transplants came here to get a young work force. To get a break in legacy costs. Now, every 30 years, you can expect the assembly ops to move to a different country. Time to go to Venezuala. See you in India. Or they might all wind up in a country where there is no expectation of a retirement.

How could this be corrected ? Let me think.....

LSF2298

My Feedback: (4)

Yes, I think we are in the same boat. Only one point of difference, most large corporations in the US today have done away with their defined contribution pension plans. ie.. you put in so much each payday today and they give you a pension when you reach some age or number of years. Today, most have the 401K type of accounts. They give you some contribution today but you are on your own when you "retire". I agree the retirement benefits are the cause of the high hourly cost to the big 3. I retired from a large corporation with a defined pension, however my company was smart enough to fund the program as the years passed, not wait until I retired and then try to find the money to pay me. I am fortunate in that respect. Now the fact that the UAW still demands that and the big 3 still give it is just an example of union greed or management stupidity. Take your pick. They know it's going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. They, both the union and management talk about restructuring. Restructuring is simply cutting cost, everybody is going to need to sacrifice for the good of the whole. It's not rocket science, but to listen to the news, you would think we need several Albert Einstein's locked in a room to figure it out. Peace

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I'm glad you mentioned the corperate retirement . That is the issue. I remember when most large companies had them. But then what ? Corperate raiding. Raiders would buy a corperation, then steel the retirement account, pay for they company, sell all of its assets and keep the rest, kill the company dead and laugh about it. They screwed millions of people out of thier retirements. Hence, the idividual retirement account was born. Not the fix I would have instituted if I were king. I might have ended raiding in some other way. And I'll admit, portable retirement seemed necessary for many professions.

But GM really still does it the old fashioned way. They have a fund manager. The fund was diverse with lots of safe AAA bonds. These are fairly low return investments that are considered nearly as safe as placing the money in a bank. But these AAA funds had been mis-represented. They weren't low risk at all. They were securities that had begun life with virtually no security at all. Buy a bundle of low document home loans, slap a cheap insurance policy on it and call it AAA. They thought their portfolio was diverse. These AAA funds typically are used to offset riskier investment.

GM was doing the right thing by their employees. The crooks are the guys on Wallstreet that mis-represented these investments. Thats why GM came up short. That and the fact that practically no one in the US can afford a car now, any car, regardless of who built it. Heck, Best Buy sales are down 77% !

This entire credit default meltdown is a huge case of fraud. This stuff was not what it was sold to be. Investors, ( typically in the form of retirement accounts) were the victums.

So what do you do when you have 340k retirees and this happens ? Say sorry fellows, see you in the next life, cut the string and file chapter 11 ? I think GM is doing a more stand up thing than that. They are begging for the money to pay their retirees . A loan at that. They intend to pay it back, if all goes well. It will be horrible for many, many people if it goes badly.

ditch it

The portion that the UAW recieves from GM alone is $14-$28...the worker earns his/her pay on top of that; which pushes the total price to $45-$75 an hour (depends on longevity). Your basic non union GM repair guy earns $15-$25 an hour flat rate.

Anyway, I hate to see one of these big corps go under. The fallout from people out of work will be terrible. It isn't just the UAW guys; it is the small companies that make parts, repair shops, tire manuf., electronic comp., and auto body repair. If you own a GM and they go out where will you get it serviced? Most small shops don't have the information to fix it correctly (GM quit putting out repair manuals 5-8 years ago; all the info is on their 'private' repair website) And you can forget about that extended warranty you paid for!!

Now on the other side...I would like to see the big wigs that put GM in this position burned in a public setting. But, I forsee them getting out with big checks and living life to the fullest for being idiots. Just isn't right.

Hossfly

Just read/scanned this thread through post #13. As usual PilotFighter is the only one that is near right.

Big Business buys the advertisement space the news media sells. Therefore the newsmedia prostitute their "news" to substantiate their bill-payers. Some 20+ years ago I joined the John Birch Society because they were fighters of communism and socialism. Well WRONG I was. As most organizations composed of the "elites" I found JBS to be simply an organization strictly to reduce the American Labor Force to PEON/SERF status while enriching themselves beyond the term "rich" more like KINGS. After about 5 years I left the organization. I could not subscribe to their ideology.

As an airline pilot, after 13 years USAF, I observed first hand how management can lie, cheat and steal. The REAL airline pilot was in a unique position. He is the only person that has to comply with Federal Qualifications while being employed in the supposedly "private" sector. That means that a real pilot can stand up to management on a dailt basis. (There are 'airplane drivers' and there are 'PILOTS'. Management loves the airplane drivers. [:-] ) Real pilots stand their ground.

Top management has no objection to receiving multi-million dollar bonuses while the average worker gets paid crumbs. Big Business supports getting the legislatures elected, Big Business plans to get a significant return on their investment in any government individual which they supported. The day Tilton, UAL CEO, took United Airlines into bankruptcy, he received a 19.7 million $$ Bonus check. Of course government would not supply any "loans" to UAL so they declared Chapter 11. Guess what all that ESOP, which began in 1994 did? All that stock that was the "retirement" of many non-union employees became worthless. People that had worked for 45 years for UAL were without ONE FXXXXXg cent of many years of negotiated retirement. [:@]

Pilots that were forced by Federal Government to retire at age 60 lost up to 85% of their NEGOTIATED pensions, as the fund was transferred to Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. (PBGC). All these Top Management people want is to get out of all pension liability. Union management is basically just another form of corporate management. They do jump into bed together for their mutual benefit,
In reality, the upper management (miss-management) of today's American Big Corporate Business, which is no longer really owned by a majority of US stockholders is nothing more than what I determine as a group of pure criminals.

IMO, bailing out of any corporation by any form of government is just one more giant leap into a total Fascist State, http://www.fdrs.org/fascism_definition.html

Your elected federal officials are doing just that as they repay the powers that financed the officials into power. Yes, the U.S has the finest Politicians and Big Business Management that money can buy. [sm=drowning.gif]

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

But just in case that isn't enough they are giving themselves a 4.8% raise for doing a fine job doing the taxpayers. Any wonder why our "leaders" want to eliminate the second amendment.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I find it disgusting that Americans always want to kick the union worker. Middle class people working for middle class wages and they are the ones who get kicked in the teeth when the crap hits the fan.

Nobody seams to want to talk about the multi-million dollar salaries, pensions and golden parachuts that management takes home every year.

Unions got the 40hr work week
Unions lobbied to enact child labor laws
Unions got employee pensions
Unions got health care benefits

I could go on. Unions are responsible for the lifestyle that a lot of Americans enjoy today. You may not be a union worker, and you may have some ridiculous loathing for unions because you believe they are bad. But the cold truth is.... you enjoy MANY of the benefits you have BECAUSE of unions. Non-union wages and benefits are BASED on union scale and benefits. The union package is the BASELINE against all other labor is compared.

How about we look at upper management and discuss how they mis-managed the companies? How about we point the finger at MANAGEMENT and ask if they are willing to work for $28/hr until the companies are financially stable again? How about we just FIRE all the managers and start over with some government OVERSIGHT instead of letting unchecked capitalism and "free market" ruin the whole damn country?!?!?!? [:@]

Free markets don't work. In order for a free market to work, the people at the top who make all the money would have to be socially responsible. That hasn't happened yet and it ain't gonna happen.

What we need is government REGULATIONS. Deregulated airlines have gone bankrupt. Deregulated railroads have ripped up millions of miles of rail lines across this great country and sold the steel to CHINA for SCRAP and quick profits........ and what did China do with all those melted rail lines? Golly!! They built a MASSIVE Navy!!!

STOP KICKING THE LABOR AND START REGULATING BUSINESS!!!!!!!!

Labor goes to work every day and follows ORDERS. They do what they are told. LABOR has NOTHING to do with poor performance on the part of the company. The poor performance of the companies is due to POOR MANAGEMENT. PERIOD! So if you want to kick somebody and blame somebody........ I suggest we Americans start looking a little higher up the food chain and leave labor out of it.

Yeah, this is a sensitive subject for me.

Dice41

my opinion. auto industry, wallstreet and the union should all be ended. CROOKS and GREED. the US gov aint gonna do nothing, they are the most corrupt people on planet dirt. anybody wanna buy a senate seat, i'll sell it cheap? good ol'e U.S.A.R.

exeter_acres

My Feedback: (2)

Me thinks Sam must be a bit ticked off then.........

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Me thinks both the unions and upper management share the blame for the present state of the auto industry. Greed on both parts has ultimately resulted in an unsustainable business situation. Then throw in the stockholders that want their piece of the pie. Union/management has been a swinging pendulum thing with ever increasing amplitude - until now it is hitting the stops and something has to give.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Even IF a union guy costs $75 an hour by the time he retires after serving the company for 35yrs.......... he still makes nothing compared to a CEO or CFO. I don't believe it costs that much, but I'll play along for arguments sake.

I'll NEVER agree to your point Red. I've heard the argument my entire life and I simply don't believe it to be true. Union workers do a good job for a fair wage IMO. Blaming workers for the failure of 500-billion dollar companies is just not the right way to look at it. It's just not.

If the unions were so corrupt and they were costing the company so much money that it was breaking the company, the company would renegotiate the contract at the next renewal. They haven't done that because they know it's a fair wage for the job. Everything was fine with how much the union benefits and wages were. Until the companies grew short sighted and made vehicles the American public didn't want. Then when profits suffered, BLAME THE UNION!! The damn union had NOTHING to do with the direction the companies took. The unions don't tell the companies how to conduct business. The union hall supplies skilled, contract labor. that is all they do. They don't tell GM CEO's what cars to build and how much to charge for them. The union doesn't study marketing trends and predict which cars will be popular in 5yrs. Thats the job for a marketing manager and the union hall and the union workers have ZIP to do with it.

All blame goes to the people in charge of the companies. Stop kicking labor. They did their jobs according to the orders they were given. They entered into an agreement with the companies to do that work for a given wage and benefits. The company agreed to those wages and benefits too. Nobody is holding the companies feet to the fire over union wages and benefits. Contracts are up for negotiation every few years and either or both parties can ask for more or less.

Are we supposed to believe the managers and higher up people in charge of the car companies are blameless?

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

As long as the CEO's and their layers of underlings were making millions in salaries and bonues they would give the Unions whatever they wanted. Neither party had the smarts to see where this was leading. Upper Management had theirs and could care less, the Unions apparantly were not smart enough to figure this out and use their clout to change the way things were headed.

LSF2298

My Feedback: (4)

Can you help me understand the "job bank"? Also, can you tell me why we should abandon the Secret Ballot in elections?

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I have no idea what you're talking about. I never mentioned job banks or secret ballots in elections.

evan-RCU

I think that the unions got the workers a lot of good things when the economy was doing good. Now that it's not I think they should be giving something back. If they don't they won't have a job. I also think that the government should do something, but I'm not sure what. Maybe some kind of regulation or maybe some financial help. Not sure but I think times will get worse, much worse if nothing is done.

Hossfly

The unions that I am familiar with have given so much back that they are close to paying to work. [X(]
The government is doing "something". It is repaying those ultra-rich that placed them in office. After 01-20-'09, the government will do more to assist the ultra-rich. The "government" will take every cent from the middle classes to reduce those people to the peon level, inducing those people to DEPENDING on government, as the non-productives now do. As Krueschev predicted, the Amwericans will not simply become communists, but if fed a little Socialism each day, one day they will find themselves under Communism. It's rapidly approaching that day and remember that you[sm=48_48.gif] voted it in.

BTW, this post is to let you know more about this person, which is a stated objective of this forum.