hargravebl

I don't know what my luck is with GWS planes but it sucks!!! I'm ready to give the hobby up because it is so frustrating...first I killed my ME-109 (which I have come to accept that I wasn't ready for) and now I'm on my way to the same thing with my Tigermoth.

I went to fly this morning, winds were about 5-6, not to bad. I put the wings together, charged my batts, checked my throws, balance and range and thought I was good to go.

Pointed her into the light wind and gave her full throttle....I was flying off a black top basketball court, my usual flying area...and after about a 10 foot roll out I pulled back and I don't know if she stalled or didn't have enough speed on rotation but she drifted left and smacked into the ground.

The fuselage snapped in the what I have deamed the usual place for GWS planes...right behind the engine and battery...the heaviest place for GWS planes. The same thing happened to my ME-109. Oh and I snapped the end off the left ailerion. All in all a easy repair with a little epoxy...now I'm afraid to fly the damn thing.

Damn I'm so frustrated with these planes, is it me? Is it the plane? Not enough airspeed? Should I give up on the ROG takeoffs and stick to hand throwing it??? I don't know I rack my brain trying to figure out what keeps happening and it drives me crazy.

The only plane I have successfully flown time and time again is my little GWS Pico Stick F, but it is seeming like such a kids toy to me anymore and I crave more. I'm ready to go throw down the 250 bucks for GreatPlanes R/C Flight Sim and just practice, practice, practice but all the time on those computer sticks isn't the real thing ya know.

What am I doing wrong guys????

BadSplice

My Feedback: (1)

well, I had much the same experience with the gws planes (other than the stick) but what I have found is that the stock power systems are simply too weak and heavy for the planes. I finally invested in a brushless motor and lithium batteries, and now I have a gws Zero that absolutly rocks! (it isnt a good beginner plane though) point is, I think you need more power.
Also, with such a small plane, balance is really critical, too far forward and you have no tail control when you need it, too far back and you pitch all over.
the sim wouldnt be a bad idea but if it were me, Id put that 250 into the brushless/lithium setup

Time Pilot

I've seen the TM 400 fly on less than adequate batteries (7C 730mah nimh's) and it seemed to do well. Not a powerhouse, but it flew. The pilot was also fairly new to RC, having flown for less than a year.

What kind of batteries are you using? A battery upgrade may make your plane fly a bit better. I take it you are using the recommended prop.

If it piles in on take off, my guess is that you did stall it. You may be trying to get too much vertical. Fly it like a scale airplane (for starters--that's the way I saw the TM 400 being flown) and you should be fine.

The pilot of the TM 400 says that it handles the wind better than the smaller one, so the 5-7 mph winds should be okay for it.

WolfeWind

What else have you flown successfully?

Jagzilla

For what it's worth, I found my TM 400 was a handful for sure until I got it trimmed out right on it's maiden. I personally would recommend hand tossing the thing when you are first starting out with it. I run mine with a 3 cell 1500 mah lipo, and it has more than enough power to fly, with a 8060 prop on it and D gearing. You have to use common sense throttle management with that setup, as you are pulling a good 13 amp on the top end, which will fry the motor over time. On a 2 cell lipo, forget it! I don't know what batter you are using, but if you are underpowered, you are finished before you begin! The cog is absolutely critical on this bird, just as it is on most airplanes. I also found that I needed to cut the elevator throws back considerably, or Id be doing the "porpoising" thing with it. All in all, I love the way if flies now, but the first flight was a bit tense with it! Its easier to fly than a 109, but still far from a beginners plane. I love mine, and I wish you the best on yours!
J

Tweet

My Feedback: (1)

If you don't have a lot of flying experience an RC flight sim can't hurt. The more marginal the performance of an airplane is the better pilot you need to be. I have a GWS PT-17, but it has more power than stock and that sometimes keeps me out of trouble. I suppose without throttle management it could get me in trouble, too.

Sounds like you suffered from a stall spin.

Hang in there. Fly a sim, get someone to fly with you on a buddy box. Try something like the new Sig Kadet Electric with enough power. You'll make it work if you really want to.

SexyPizzaMan

My Feedback: (19)

I was just about to get the tigermoth 400 and put in kokam 1500 3c batterys and go brushless with it. From video clips it looks like the thing can go vertical with stock motor and lipo pack. The thing took off of grass and went straight up. Dont be frusterated with GWS airplanes, with the right setup they are the best electrics for the price.

Jagzilla

I think vertical on stock motor and 3 cell lipo is out of reach.
J

WolfeWind

Personally, I prefer an ROG rather than a hand launch all of the time, but especially on a new plane. There are a lot of reasons the plane might have turned on you right after take off, but most likely it just wasn't trimmed up yet.

Next time try to start out with a little opposing rudder trim - opposite the the way it turned on you the first time - not much - just a touch.

When you ROG the airplane you are committed to flying it, so don't back off on the throtte if things start to go wrong. Once it lifts off, your mission is to fly it up to 100 ft or more as quicdkly as you can, and then make trim adjustments at a safe altitude.

Right after lift off you are still flying very close to stall speed, so your ailerons won't be all that effective. If you back off on the throttle, they won't be effective at all. Be mentally set to use your left stick rudder to help the plane stay on track right after - and during - the ROG.

Don't give it up elevator too soon - let the tail lift off first, then only enough elevator to climb out at about a 10 degree angle. Let the plane build up some airspeed so it becomes stable in flight before you try to turn it. Climb gradually up to at least 100 ft - big wide shallow circles. Keep your airspeed up.

The Moth 400 is a good flyer - it seems to do pretty much what you tell it to do, BUT it will not help you out - it will not right itself - you have to fly it all of the time. If you are new to RC, it is a lot of plane to try to start with.

SexyPizzaMan

My Feedback: (19)

Ok mabey not virtical but have you seen the video on RCU>> http://67.18.81.100/rcuvideos/magazi.../345/TM400.wmv

Jagzilla

I enjoyed watching the vid. Flies similiar to mine on the 3 cell. I'm surprised the landing gear survived that way he smacked it on that touch and go! I was going to take my small brushless Feigao out of my me 109 and put it in the moth, but honestly, it flies so well on the 400 with the 3 cell that I don't think I'll bother. I really enjoy the look of a biplane in the air!
J

hargravebl

Thanks to all for the replies...

...from all I've heard the thing should fly just fine on the stock set up. I'm using 9.6v 730mAh batts with the recommended prop. She seems to have enough power on ground turn ups and motor tests.

After I have had time to calm down...which has been most of the day...I've come to the conclusion that I just don't let the thing build enough speed before I try to give up elevator and she just stalled. How long of a run is enough? Just to get the tail off the ground? Here is the thing on the ROG, the tail wheel isn't straight with the rudder so she turns left at full throttle and by the time I'm ready to rotate the thing is doing circles on the ground and I have to throttle back. Maybe I'll give it a hand toss next flight.

Anyway, she is glued back together and ready to go so I'll update in the morning after I try again.

Oh and for those who asked...the only other plane that I have and flown successfully is my GWS Pico Stick F...she flies great, just stick and rudder. I know the TM400 isn't a beginners plane but I think I have had enough flight time with the Pico Stick...even though I have never flown a aileron plane before.

AgCat1982

I agree with most of the replies. I suspect you didn't have enough airspeed from what you describe. What you describe will always happen if you take off without enough airspeed.

I would really try to straighten the tail wheel. If you don't, you will keep having problems.

Hang in there. We've all been there, believe me!

Good luck.

Time Pilot

Unless you are a glutton for punishment, I'd take the above advice and get that tail wheel straightened out. There must be a reason that airports have straight runways!

To answer your question about how much of a run should you give it: that depends on the wind, your set up (battery, prop, motor, weight of plane) and the surface you are running it on.

It's a bit easier to tell when the plane is ready to take off when you fly from a smooth surface because the tail will come up pretty well when the plane is ready to fly. You can give it a small amount of up elevator at that point and let the plane rise off the ground gently. Stay at full throttle and let the plane get some speed. When it's moving, which shouldn't take too long, point it up a bit more and let it climb. Watch the speed so you don't stall again.

When it's up, practice some slow flight like you did with your other plane to learn its stalling characteristics. Once you've got that down, you'll know what kind of speed to build up to get a good ROG.

Good luck!

foreverNight

Have you tried an RTF plane? Like an Aerobird or sky scooter? That was my ticket. I've since Modified my Sky Scooter and i also fly the GWS Zero.
I started with the HZ Outlaw but, got bored with it after about 2 days. then the Aerobird. Just my 2 cents.

AgCat1982

This plane we've been talking about is an RTF.

foreverNight

no the tigermoth is a ARF. almost ready to fly.

AgCat1982

Sorry [&:] I was confusing this post with the Decathlon post! Of course your right![&:]

Jagzilla

If that plane is in flyable condition, then a good firm hand toss is all it will need to be airborne. ROG takeoffs are great, but add the stress of trying to keep the plane straight while going down the field, as well as how hard this can all be on the landing gear if its not a very smooth field. When we are talking bent tail wheels, and problems with keeping the plane straight etc., in his case I think a hand toss is a better idea. Toss it firm, get your speed up, and be very gentle on the input into the controls. As I posted earlier, I would greatly decrease the throws on the elevator, until you are used to the plane, and you are sure you have the cog correct. best of luck
J

RickAvery

My bro-in-laws TM 400 was an adequate flier with the stock power system and 8 cell batts. But, he had to add a bunch of weight to the nose to get it to balance out. It was a pretty good flyer once balanced and trimmed out with the OEM power though, Usually not the case. All these folks are giving good advice, IMHO. If she's tail heavy, She'll fly really bad and add to your woes.
Rick

hargravebl

Well winds are kinda variable this morning...might try and take her out.

I'm going to try and hand launch her first and see what happens. I'm also thinking about just taking the tail wheel off all together and just try to use it as a skid...should fix the ground spin if I try to ROG.

Also, since the tourque of the motor seems to pull the plane left with neutral rudder should I trim right just a hair for normal flight?

Thanks all again for the posts...will update after this morning! Wish me luck. [&:]

clovus

Tough break,

Don't give up just yet. My first maiden I did a ROG, slow inadvertent turn at low altitude to the left then overcompensated to the right, resulting in very similar damage. After a bit of glue.... the next ROG I porpoised around til -SMASH! major damage to fuse, broke prop support, cracked bottom wing, destroyed the nose cone and snapped top wing. The next launch I got the wife to hand launch it thinking that the extra height would help. The only problem was, she gave it a gentle waft forwards - not a toss and.... snap again. After yet another repair sesion I decreased the elevator and hand tossed it myself.

Suprisingly after all the repairs it flew straight with no trim needed! So even with a few crashes they still fly right. It is amazing the number of pieces you can carry home, that you can glue back and make it whole again (The best advise I got was to collect ALL the pieces, no matter how small to help gluing them back together.... the second - it's not a crash until you hit the ground..... so if things are going pear shaped get some height to give yourself breathing space to sort things out).

I found the TM400 needs time to get up to speed - take your time and go gently on the controls but get some height first to give you room for errors. ROG takes a long time to really get cranking before you can pull it up - a hand toss is better - just keep it level for about 3-4 meters at full throttle should do it. Of course with the 3 cell lipo a lot of this is resolved - nothing like a little bit of reserve power.

I just checked your last thread (ME109). Where are you balancing the COG? I used the bottom wing reinforcing rod-not the top wing. As you'll see the top wing is placed forward of the bottom which would mean the COG is too far forward. Maybe this might be a problem?? DON"T GIVE UP! You can imagine how I felt after the first three crashes, but if you can fly the pico stick you will be able to fly this - it's just a different plane so slightly different to control. Besides its too much fun once she's up there and cruising around.

hargravebl

Hey Clovus, yeah I balanced off the bottom wing...inverted. She balanced perfect at 0 to 10mm from the leading edge so I think the CG is good.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that I was just trying to take off too soon...I was pulling back after about 4 to 5 feet of roll. Fine for the Pico Stick I'm used to but not for the Tigermoth. I'm going to use a lot more runway for ROG take-offs for now on. I straigtened the tail wheel and after a lot of ground runs she goes straight as an arrow. I think I'll try a hand launch also but after some practice holds it seems awkward to try and and launch her.

Yeah I know what you mean about getting all the pieces after a crash...learned that after my ME-109. Spent more time on the gluing stand then in the air. I don't want that to happen again with the TM.

Winds are dying down so I might be heading out here soon to try it again...getting itchy.

clovus

Just relax... remember this is supposed to be fun. I toss it from just behind the rear wing in a level motion and at a moderate throw. After a few flights you will work out how hard to throw, but harder is better then softer.... nothing like a gradual dive and panicked yank up of elevator to keep the glue stand from getting dusty. I have to fly in wind as where I live there is always some breeze - it can be challenging, but also fun too.

hargravebl

SHE FLEW!!!!!

Took her out this afternoon with just the intentions of doing some ground run-ups because the wind was a little gusty...6-8mph. I was running her back and forth on the blacktop checking to see if my tail wheel straighting had worked, went off the edge and broke my gear off...you were all right, reinforce the gear.[]

So now I said to heck with it and hand tossed her...she rose beautifully into the air and everything was going great until I made my first turn to the left...the plane went right...up, you guessed it...I had the servos reversed!!! [X(]

After a very nervous pattern I was able to get her back on deck and reverse the servo on the transmitter...talk about sweating bullets!!! After the switch I tossed her again and had a blast flying her for about a half and hour (batts weren't all charged).

Great flying plane, even in the stiffer than I like winds. The only thing I had problems with was trim...don't know if it was the wind or not but it was hard to get her to do right hand turns...she did left real good but right was hard. I'll play with my trim more next time.

Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know that I finally got some air time under her wings and the TM400 rocks!!! Now I think I need to get some lipo batts in her. [>:]