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Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Old 10-15-2003, 11:25 PM
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hroachen
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Default Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Given that the OMP Yak uses a foam core fuselage I was wondering if a 40 sized profile could get away with that too. I can get 3/8" pink "Foamular" insulation foam, I just wonder if a foam core 40 size profile fuz would be light enough... I'd like to try scratchbuilding a few profiles, and a foam core fuse would certainly make the builds go quicker.

Mike P, could you weigh in with your opinion?

David
Old 10-16-2003, 01:09 AM
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matlok
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

I started scratch building a TopCap using foam for the fuse a while back, but I got busy elsewhere and never got past just the fuse. It was 2 layers of Dow Bluecore foam (the stuff a lot of these little 3d electrics are being made of) with the plastic peeled off, 2 thin carbon fiber rods (pushrod material) imbedded in slots in the foam, sheeted with 1/16" balsa, glued with Probond. I'll have to go back and get an exact weight, but it seemed just as light if not lighter than a built up fuse and as least as strong. I think it would have worked well; I'll try to get some pics for you in the next day or so....
Old 10-16-2003, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Thanks, I do have a bunch of BlueCor here from making the little foamy profiles...
Old 10-17-2003, 12:31 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

David,

It's very doable and I've already got a version of my FF540P done in foam core style like the bigger ones we sell. Not convinced yet on weight but it is definately easier to build. The balsa built up fuse is pretty quick since you can just get away with slapping the CA and lay the sticks as you go. With the foam you have a slightly different approach with different glue for foam and then capping the perimeter. I plan to keep playing around with this idea and maybe introduce the FF again next year in foam version. I've also noticed it's easier to repair after you bust it. Just spread the epoxy or urethane glue into the cracks and clamp it back together. The built up stick and sheet style always has a challenge with all the internal fractures!@#!

Mike
Old 10-17-2003, 06:17 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I've got my ff540 fuse almost completed, but I'm thinking ahead to the inevitable... I'd sure like to make a spare fuse for it just in case.

I think the pink "Foamular" brand foam is available in 3/8" thickness, or maybe some other foam would be better...

David
Old 10-18-2003, 12:55 AM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

ORIGINAL: AFSalmon
I plan to keep playing around with this idea and maybe introduce the FF again next year in foam version.
Any thoughts on the possibility of doing a 40 size version of your Yak54? I'd buy one in a heartbeat...

David
Old 10-20-2003, 09:45 AM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

David,

Yes OMP has plans for a complete line of YAK54 and Edge 540 profiles in a variety of sizes. Stay tuned as we transition into a new year we hope to have several of our models finally available in ARF form.

Mike
Old 10-21-2003, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

I know Im not a pro bro but I will weigh in on this one by saying I am building a .40 sized profile Yak 55 (Not the 54) right now. The design I am building came from Bill Mixon. He has built one already with a pro .46 that came out to be 4lbs. and It does pretty darn good (far better than the other .40 sized profile I have had (the sig ulti)). I watched him torque roll this bad boy for a long time last weekend. I will let you know how mine turns out fairly soon. I am hoping to get it going this comming weekend but thats pushing it.
Old 10-23-2003, 11:53 AM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

I have been kicking this idea around for about 2 years now and have never given it a try. My plan is to use dow 1/2" foam and sheet it on both sides with doorskin and probond. I'll lay in the hardwood rails for the motor mount and landing gear. Then I plan to cut a Foam wing using 2 sandwiched pieces of 25lb high load foam with FG rods and some lightning holes. I am just going to cover the wing with low temp covering no balsa. The wing trailing edge will be blasa and will have stick built up ailerons. The tail surfaces will be made from Coroplast with CF stiffners. This plane should build in a couple of days be very light weight and almost indestructable. At least thats my story and I'm sticking to it. Scince I haven't buildt one this way before it is still a mistery. I want a plane that flies as well as a Morris kit but is faster to build, cheaper, and tougher than a Morris kit. I have been building combat planes with similar technology for about 2 years now and I think it will all work quite well. If you have the time and a couple of bucks give it a try and let me know what you find out.
Old 10-23-2003, 06:51 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Don, I'd just use the door skin up from about the LE or spar to the front of the fuse, balsa for the rest of the fuse. 100% doorskin would be tough..it'd have to be!
Old 10-23-2003, 07:06 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

I was thinking Of using doorskin all the way and then cutting lightning holes if I need to shed weight. Cutting a truss-like pattern through the back of the fuse would still be strong yet shed some ounces. I have my last combat contest of the season Nov. 19th after that this will be my next project. We will see how it works.
Old 10-27-2003, 02:23 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Any of you bro's ever hear about "hoop pine" ply? Very strong, comes as thin as 1.5mm weighs 3.4 oz. sq.ft. and is bendable. Also 3.0mm and 6.0mm available. It will bend tighter than a wings leading edge. It passes a 70 degree water imersion test up tp 3 hrs. without failure. Sounds just right for cladding foam. There are also veneers on the market about 1/32" thick with two micro thin layers of phenolic backing ( for special glue applications ) Its tough to tear this stuff, but you can fold a piece to fit in your wallet. No specs on the weight of this. Joe
Old 10-28-2003, 12:55 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Cum'n thru how do I get a hold of some hoop pine sounds like the stuff I'm after. I just need something super thin tough and light. Sounds like i'm asking for gold or something. Maybe I'll look in my alchemists books. Chapter 1 how to turn lead into hoop pine.
Old 10-28-2003, 01:20 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Ten-Man, There is a distributor in NJ. More like a broker.
Seabury Distributors
16 Hillcrest Road
PO Box 97
Towaco, NJ 07082
Ph# 973-335-8266
Fx# 973-335-8218
I build furniture. I'm not sure if you have to be in the trades or not. I doubt it. They will ship right to your door. Also they provided me a sample and literature. If interested in the thinner veneers ask for " bubble free veneer " Thats the stuff with the micro thin layers of phenolic. Good luck, Joe
Old 10-29-2003, 11:44 AM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Thanks Joe I tried to laminate a foam fuse with 1/8" ply from the lumber yard and it weighs a ton. The fuse alone weighs 1 lb. I haven't cut out the lightning holes or cut out for the wing yet but it looks to be quite heavy now. Once I decide this is a bust I'll try the veneers. My 1/8" ply was only 8 bucks for a 4x8 sheet so it is really cheap to build multiple fuses plus fast and easy. I want to make sure this method won't work first it's just too cheap. I really like to fly crazy so if I can build these suckers cheap and fast I'll try anything once.
Old 10-29-2003, 12:48 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Well that "hoop pine ply" is light but for a 36" X 72" piece its about $25.00 at 2002 prices. Now in the veneers, the cheapest is "maple economy B grade" at a $1.79 a sq. ft. 4 X 8 sheets. Oak is cheaper but too brittle. The veneers come from: www.oakwoodveneer.com Good luck, Joe
Old 10-29-2003, 03:36 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

I weighed my foam ply covered fuse and the all up weight is 14 oz. Does anyone know what weight a Morris Fuse is? This would be uncovered weight with nothing else. Anyone building one right now so I might have a clue if I'm even close to a good weight? I can definately take out more weight but I think I'll fly this prototype first. If you don't have a fuse weight what about some total airframe weights with or without covering just let me know whats on it when you weigh it.
Old 10-31-2003, 10:09 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?



This is the foam fuse Sukhoi I am working on. I have about 9 hours labor in it right now. The weight as it sets is 1lb 13oz. I still need to cap the LE and TE of the wing and cut out the foam for the radio gear and I'll add some lightning holes to the wing. It should be slightly lighter when I start to cover it. About half the time I have spent on it is framing up the stick control surfaces. I was originally planning on using Corogated plastic but felt there would be flexing issues with such large and wide surfaces. I was to cheap to buy some CF tubes to strengthen the Coro. I will give up a little durability using balsa but it aint meant to crash.....allthough it is inevidable. It has been a pretty quick build and I have about 12 bucks in the airframe. I am incredibly cheap. I weighed all my gear and engine etc. the all up weight should be about 4 1/2lbs dry. I think this will be a good weight for a ST 45. I'm hoping for a balistic missle.
Old 11-04-2003, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

I too am interested in this "technology", being an ex-spad-fanatic (still like spad, in the right place, combat, etc.). I just realized there's something to said about the beauty of a covered wood plane, not to mention weight/performance!!!!

I built my 1st kit this spring, Knife, but time isn't something I've got a lot of. I'd rather fly than build anyway!

My thinking on the matter is to try to get a plane that's "reproducable" rather than "indestructable". That's at least as light/stiff as the all-balsa planes that we love to fly so much!

Keep this trend going!

I would like to see a light-foam-wing-setup, like 1lb. white eps foam, covered with balsa, or some of this veneer Eraser-Heads talkin' about. No spar, just cf tape under the veneer where the spar should be (top and bott), and some lightening holes behind the "spar".
And a srip of cf tape running the length of the l.e., no wood on l.e. except for sheeting, but obviously a balsa t.e.

Also, an idea about the fuse, use the 1lb reg. white foam again (or the lighter epp, 1.5lb per cu. ft.?) veneered, but have 1/2" wood "spars" running the length (top, bott.,cent.), forgetting about cf tubes.

Light is the key, obviously, but the gen. consencus is that a foam wing can't be built as light as a built-up one. Man, someone out there with foam cutting/building exp. please help prove 'em wrong, so we can spit these simple (should be more simple to build) planes out, at the rate we crash 'em!!!!!!!!!!!

p.s. how about foam core flying surfaces????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 11-05-2003, 08:33 AM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

ORIGINAL: JIVE TURKEY
Light is the key, obviously, but the gen. consencus is that a foam wing can't be built as light as a built-up one. Man, someone out there with foam cutting/building exp. please help prove 'em wrong, so we can spit these simple (should be more simple to build) planes out, at the rate we crash 'em!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. how about foam core flying surfaces????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jive, You gotta check out the "Pigi" from hobby lobby for an example of a light epp wing. The wing is hot wired to shape, then they go one step further and hollow it out. Very light with the strength offered thru opposing surfaces. I started collecting stuff to make a bow for a hot wire. As far as control surfaces I've seen the use of "Depron" which I'm trying to research.
On a simpler side in the range of low tech manufacturing, I often thought of white or blue foam which can be cut or shaped easily and laminated with one piece of veneer ( from TE to LE and back around to TE ) Very strong, will not wind (twist) and no deflection under stress. White foam needs 3M spray adhesive, not sure about blue foam. Epp foam you can use contact cement (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.) for a permanant bond.
I'm leaning towards a hollow epp but at some point in time will try a laminated foam wing. Joe
Old 11-07-2003, 06:13 PM
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JIVE TURKEY
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Aaaaarrrguhh! I've been trying to post a reply for 2 days, had a cookie problem.......anyway

Cummin Thru> I think were on the same page w/laminated foam core! I like your idea about just wrapping the thing and forget about wood l.e.'s and spars, hopefully it wood be strong enough for a 40 size profile wing! If not, I was thinkin' to add cf tape to top and bott. of wing were the spar would go. Also to l.e. for impact resistance. You'd obviuosly need a wood t.e. for ail. hinging.

If either idea creates a stiff enough wing to handle the g's we inflict, but isn't as light (or lighter) than an all wood wing, here are a couple idea's;

>Cut holes behind and/or in front of "spar" before or after laminating.

>Or with "pigi" wing in mind, hollow foam core via the same hot wire it's cut with, either in front of and behind spar location, leaving foam material for a foam only spar, like above. Or hollow out the hole thing and reinsert and glue foam only spar, or wood laminated foam spar.

If this is making any sense to anyone, but sounds to complicated to cut with a bow, I saw an add somewhere of a cnc foam cutting service.

Or here's a web site to make your own cnc foam cutter!!!
http://www.8linx.com/cnc/cnc.htm

I've had some success cutting foam cores, but would probably pay our "resident foam cutting guy" at our field do it.

IF ANYONE ELSE IS INTERESTED IN, OR HAS IDEAS ABOUT MAKING FOAM CORE .40 SIZE FUN-FLY'S TO RIVAL THE WEIGHT AND PERFORMANCE OF THE ALL-WOOD ONES, THAT WE LOVE TO FLY (BUT SOME OF US HATE TO SPEND ALL THE TIME TO BUILD), AND GET US BUSY FUN-FLIERS MORE TIME ON THE STICKS, P-L-E-A-S-E JUMP IN WITH YOUR IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your not getting the jist of this "technology" here it is in a nut shell> CUT OUT (OR HAVE CUT) YOUR WING, FUSELAGE AND POSSIBLY EVEN FLYING SURFACES OUT OF FOAM. THEN LAMINATE (OR HAVE LAMINATED) THE SAME FOAM, THEN GUESSE WHAT? YOUR READY TO COVER (OR PAINT?), INSTALL GEAR AND F-L-Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I'm dreamin' here, but I think it's possible!

Let's talk laminate, that hoop-pine or others C.T. mention's above, if light/strong/cost effective enough, would be a big bonus in wrapping foam blank all the way around versus balsa sheeting. Obviously balsa is lighter pound per pound, but a stronger wood much thinner would be more flexible and possibly as light or lighter, depending on how thin it was, and hopefully would result in a stiff enough wing/fuse. If not, balsa's good too!

Another idea popped into my feable mind> how about lightweight fiberglass cloth and paint (sounds messy) ?

"DEPRON????!!!!!?">keep us posted CT
Old 11-09-2003, 12:56 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

I like it

Another design feature I'd like to see is a removable wing to make storage and transport easier

Something like the Something Extra, or classic bolt on.

A friend of mine made a profile GeeBee with a 1" foam fuse with a bolt on wing and it works well
Old 11-09-2003, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?



these pics are of a foam cored profile design i built and it turned out heavy, about 12oz
compared to my latest built up design that turned out 5oz
i could have made it better using aliphatic glue or cutting lightining holes in it as Ten-man did.
the foam core fuse is solid though..
see lots more pics of it on my site
Old 11-09-2003, 10:49 PM
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JIVE TURKEY
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

ORIGINAL: molchaser

I like it

Another design feature I'd like to see is a removable wing to make storage and transport easier

Something like the Something Extra, or classic bolt on.

A friend of mine made a profile GeeBee with a 1" foam fuse with a bolt on wing and it works well

I'm all for this too, if it's not asking too much weight-wise! I've seen post's w/alluminum wing tubes, which is used in foam core large airobatic planes, so it might work well with what were talking about.

Spad-stick, I think your on the right track w/simple foam "profile-of-a-profile"with wood wrapped around it and laminated. My feeling on saving weight is also to use a light glue i.e; white alphaic or 3-m spray, but the foam choice IMO would be reg. 1-pound per sq./ft. (most common?) eps a.k.a bead board or expanded poly styrene, the lightest foam I know of. To me it just a "filler" to separate the laminate (which could also be thin/light), combining to make a stiff structure that does not "wind" (to quote a famous furniture maker).

Lightening holes are good, but if can be avoided, would simplify/speed up construction (our goal here!). If they were needed, I would consider "punching" them in before laminating!

I've been giving the "pigi" design a lot of thought and conclude that this might be the answer to lightening wing. I think you could make a "regular" foam core wing, laminating it, then cut the hollow out through t.e., then add your wood t.e. Or cut the hollow prior to lam. but leave it in to support the weight that's used to laminate (when the foam cores "negative" is used for support). Disclaimer; I'm not an expert on this subject because I've never done it[X(] just quoting how I think it's done, in case it's not making any sense, that is classic foam core wing design/lam. technique (sorry for rambling!).

As to the phonelic-backed wood laminate cummin thru (Joe?) talkin' about, How about just a thin layer of phonelic laminated to the foam (what's phonelic anyway?, some sort of plastic/cellulose composite?) In my opinion, a surface like this could just be painted, instead of covered and look awesome!

Keep the ideas coming, it's great to see the interest out there (I talk like I started this thread, sorry!). A note about myself, I'm not much of a reasearch and designer, (I REALLY don't have much time to build) So I'm hoping to "dig up" info about planes already out there, or spark some interest in guy's doing the trial and error with my own feeble ideas. I hope it works, 'cause I really think that how simple these planes are in design (but not in performance!), that they should/could be easier to build, if you so desire (I do ADMIRE those beautiful built-up structers that you guy's are puttin' out that you can show off with transp. covering!) I built one too and did a good job, it just took too long[&o]
Old 11-09-2003, 11:23 PM
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Ten-Man
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Default RE: Foam core .40 size profile fuse?

Jive Turkey Sorry I haven't read this thread in a few days I've been preping and competing in combat this last week. I just got back from Waverly NE. WOW what a great time....... Anyway I digress. My wing plan is very simple and quite strong as it is in the above pic. If it has a drawback it is that it has no sheeting. I will just cover the foam wing with Towerkote low heat covering. The drawback is that it will get fingerprints and small imperfections if you grab the wing or knock it against something. Other than that it is one tough dude. These are the same building techniques I use in combat and our wings hold up real well to impacts at 80+ MPH. So it should be plenty strong for a 40 size funfly. My thinking on this projest is to come up with a plan like a SPAD in that it builds quick and uses cheap easily obtainable harware store products. Everthing you see was bought at a lumber yard except for the 2 sheets of 1/4" balsa sheet it took to do the control surfaces. I was originally thinking of doing those in Coroplast which would even further reduce the building time but I thought it would probably flex to much as large as the control surfaces are. I will probably still try that later. My estimated weight with a ST .45 is 4.5lbs I have weighed everything I'm putting in the plane plus a bit of weight for covering and its 4.5lbs so it should fly pretty well I think. I will put lightning holes in the wing and my next fuse will have a better layed out set of lighning holes to further reduce weight in the airframe. Combat is done for the year so away I go on some fun sport models. I should have some further reports in the coming weeks. As for CF tubes and tape etc. BAH HUMBUG I think I can find cheaper ways to make a great funfly that fits the bill of a Morris type steller model. Just my 2 cents.

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