Pictures! Electric Tacos
08-19-2004, 12:57 AM
#151
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RE: Electric Tacos
Here is a cut n paste of a post I made on the ProBro site,
While I own a couple of Axi motors, I'm less than impressed by their performance. You gotta love the poor little 2212/34, it has been packed in a thousand times (not exaggerating) and still runs.
But when trying to establish a viable power system for 3D planes, I came to the realization that something was wrong, the Axi just don't do very well.
Now don't get me wrong. If you are looking for a quite motor without a gearbox, a motor that will take 1K crashes, and are not worried about performance, the Axi is a fine choice.
But Axi has been developing new motors, and have finally come up with a motor that turns pretty close to the same RPM as the motor I'm running on my E Tacos, on the same prop.
This motor is the 2826/10. It will swing a 14X7E at 6930RPM (at 5200 ASL). This is very close to what the Lehner 1020/15 at 6:1 turns the 14X7E at 3250ASL. So we have a good comparison!
Post from RCGroups:
Static tested the 14x7E prop tonight on the AXI2826/10. Used my 4400 Irate 3S2P pack instead of the 5200 pack. Here are the results :
Altitude 5200 feet ASL.
APC 14x7E
A 41
V 10
W 410
RPM 6930 (ThrustHP estimates 88oz of thrust, 46mph pitch speed) .
This is great news. Finally a viable equivalent to the Lehner 1020/15-Cobri rig. Except...
This Axi weighs 6.4oz without the radial mount. So 7+ oz for the motor and mount. The Lehner/Cobri combo weighs 3.5 oz with the collet prop adapter. But hey, weight is not everything. Although 3.5oz extra hanging on the nose of a 25 oz plane might seem like a good amount, it's really only 14% of the AUW.
So let's look at performance.
The guy above was drawing 41 A to spin the 14X7E. He was running (2) 3S 2200 packs to make a 3S2P 4400. This pack will weigh right at 10 oz.
The Lehner 1020/15 draws 30A to generate 6500 RPM, so slightly lower RPM, but 11A less. This means I can run a single 3S 2500 Tanic, 6 oz. So I draw 73% as much current to get almost equal RPM ( I am 2000 ft lower)
So now we have 3.5oz less motor, 4oz less battery. 7.5oz off a 25oz plane is 30% lighter (but the plane will weigh more, so...). Or, my plane weighs 25 oz, an equivalent Axi powered plane would weigh 32.5oz, similarly equipted.....77%as much for my plane (To put this in context, it would be the equivalent difference between a 4.5lb profile and a 6lb profile)
So this is where all the misunderstanding about me and the Axi comes into play. To me a 23% ligter plane that draws 27% less current is a good deal. But some guys do not care about the weight or the current, and for them the Axi is a fine choice.
Please don't let me talk you out of the Axi, if that is what you want, by all means buy it! Please! Just understand why, if I seem to be less than enthusiastic about them, this is the reason. There are LOTS of happy Axi users out there, it's just that I can't run the numbers and be as enthusiastic as they are, that's all.
But when trying to establish a viable power system for 3D planes, I came to the realization that something was wrong, the Axi just don't do very well.
Now don't get me wrong. If you are looking for a quite motor without a gearbox, a motor that will take 1K crashes, and are not worried about performance, the Axi is a fine choice.
But Axi has been developing new motors, and have finally come up with a motor that turns pretty close to the same RPM as the motor I'm running on my E Tacos, on the same prop.
This motor is the 2826/10. It will swing a 14X7E at 6930RPM (at 5200 ASL). This is very close to what the Lehner 1020/15 at 6:1 turns the 14X7E at 3250ASL. So we have a good comparison!
Post from RCGroups:
Static tested the 14x7E prop tonight on the AXI2826/10. Used my 4400 Irate 3S2P pack instead of the 5200 pack. Here are the results :
Altitude 5200 feet ASL.
APC 14x7E
A 41
V 10
W 410
RPM 6930 (ThrustHP estimates 88oz of thrust, 46mph pitch speed) .
This is great news. Finally a viable equivalent to the Lehner 1020/15-Cobri rig. Except...
This Axi weighs 6.4oz without the radial mount. So 7+ oz for the motor and mount. The Lehner/Cobri combo weighs 3.5 oz with the collet prop adapter. But hey, weight is not everything. Although 3.5oz extra hanging on the nose of a 25 oz plane might seem like a good amount, it's really only 14% of the AUW.
So let's look at performance.
The guy above was drawing 41 A to spin the 14X7E. He was running (2) 3S 2200 packs to make a 3S2P 4400. This pack will weigh right at 10 oz.
The Lehner 1020/15 draws 30A to generate 6500 RPM, so slightly lower RPM, but 11A less. This means I can run a single 3S 2500 Tanic, 6 oz. So I draw 73% as much current to get almost equal RPM ( I am 2000 ft lower)
So now we have 3.5oz less motor, 4oz less battery. 7.5oz off a 25oz plane is 30% lighter (but the plane will weigh more, so...). Or, my plane weighs 25 oz, an equivalent Axi powered plane would weigh 32.5oz, similarly equipted.....77%as much for my plane (To put this in context, it would be the equivalent difference between a 4.5lb profile and a 6lb profile)
So this is where all the misunderstanding about me and the Axi comes into play. To me a 23% ligter plane that draws 27% less current is a good deal. But some guys do not care about the weight or the current, and for them the Axi is a fine choice.
Please don't let me talk you out of the Axi, if that is what you want, by all means buy it! Please! Just understand why, if I seem to be less than enthusiastic about them, this is the reason. There are LOTS of happy Axi users out there, it's just that I can't run the numbers and be as enthusiastic as they are, that's all.
08-19-2004, 07:02 AM
#152
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RE: Electric Tacos
ORIGINAL: Spastic
i didnt want to drag up the old axi argument again but i guess i did on my last post....sorry
i didnt want to drag up the old axi argument again but i guess i did on my last post....sorry
08-19-2004, 07:41 AM
#154
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RE: Electric Tacos
Augur, that is one of the best arguments I have seen for a gearbox/motor combo versus the outrunner. Ok, it is the best.
Seeing those numbers, I am glad you convinced me to run such a setup on my Edgelings in the first place, and to Smallfly's point, to understand the point, all you have to see is my plane punching out of a hover to believe why!
Seeing those numbers, I am glad you convinced me to run such a setup on my Edgelings in the first place, and to Smallfly's point, to understand the point, all you have to see is my plane punching out of a hover to believe why!
08-19-2004, 09:50 AM
#157
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RE: Electric Tacos
ORIGINAL: matchlessaero
Augur, that is one of the best arguments I have seen for a gearbox/motor combo versus the outrunner. Ok, it is the best.
Seeing those numbers, I am glad you convinced me to run such a setup on my Edgelings in the first place, and to Smallfly's point, to understand the point, all you have to see is my plane punching out of a hover to believe why!
Augur, that is one of the best arguments I have seen for a gearbox/motor combo versus the outrunner. Ok, it is the best.
Seeing those numbers, I am glad you convinced me to run such a setup on my Edgelings in the first place, and to Smallfly's point, to understand the point, all you have to see is my plane punching out of a hover to believe why!
08-19-2004, 06:37 PM
#158
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RE: Electric Tacos
Chuck, I like you, and i was in no way trying to bash your setup, i just wanted some numbers..
I don’t appreciate you jumping on me, when I get upset, I cry like a girl[
]
But to defend my stupid axi, my 2808-24 not a 16 , runs at about 25amp and i use a 2500 tanic 3s1p, I get about 48oz @ 350feet above sea level with a 10x3.8slowfly apc on my test stand, which is probably +/-4oz, clearly not as much power as you have. also my motor again weighs 2.6 oz. I do not use one of those adapters my taco size plane weighs 22oz with that setup RFT, and yes I am mostly happy with it,and it never gets even more than warm
I am in no way an AXI worshiper, wish they were better, but i like not having a gearbox, I did allot of research before I picked the 2808-24 and would NOT have picked it if i knew it was going to draw 25+amps, my calculations showed 20amps, at 37oz thrust, so i got more thrust and 5more amps but it works for me.
anyway my point is I am looking for another motor system for the same plane and weight, but would like more time with the same thrust, (less current), your setup is too much for my plane, that is what I was trying to find out…Thanks for the in depth explanation, and again by saying gearboxes suck I no not mean that they are inferior in performance, but I wish the out-runners were better, I think we both agree on that.
SOOOO what I should have done in the fist place is to ask, what would be a great setup with about 48oz thrust, weigh about 2.5oz and draw less than 20A?????? and please no press on pinions.
And I apologize if I came across as a Dick to anyone, I wasn’t trying to be.
Sincerely
Gary
I don’t appreciate you jumping on me, when I get upset, I cry like a girl[
]But to defend my stupid axi, my 2808-24 not a 16 , runs at about 25amp and i use a 2500 tanic 3s1p, I get about 48oz @ 350feet above sea level with a 10x3.8slowfly apc on my test stand, which is probably +/-4oz, clearly not as much power as you have. also my motor again weighs 2.6 oz. I do not use one of those adapters my taco size plane weighs 22oz with that setup RFT, and yes I am mostly happy with it,and it never gets even more than warm
I am in no way an AXI worshiper, wish they were better, but i like not having a gearbox, I did allot of research before I picked the 2808-24 and would NOT have picked it if i knew it was going to draw 25+amps, my calculations showed 20amps, at 37oz thrust, so i got more thrust and 5more amps but it works for me.
anyway my point is I am looking for another motor system for the same plane and weight, but would like more time with the same thrust, (less current), your setup is too much for my plane, that is what I was trying to find out…Thanks for the in depth explanation, and again by saying gearboxes suck I no not mean that they are inferior in performance, but I wish the out-runners were better, I think we both agree on that.
SOOOO what I should have done in the fist place is to ask, what would be a great setup with about 48oz thrust, weigh about 2.5oz and draw less than 20A?????? and please no press on pinions.
And I apologize if I came across as a Dick to anyone, I wasn’t trying to be.
Sincerely
Gary
08-19-2004, 06:40 PM
#159
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RE: Electric Tacos
I quit using the APC 12X6SF, I was running it about 1000 RPM past the red line (6500) at 32 A.
So I went to the 13X6.5, turn it 7K at 28.5A
So I went to the 13X6.5, turn it 7K at 28.5A
can you clarify or was it just a mis-type?
08-19-2004, 08:37 PM
#160
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RE: Electric Tacos
I think what spastic is trying to say is if the outrunner put out the same power at the same amps as the inrunner he would rather have the inrunner and skip the gearbox. I would to, the pinion on my razor fell off the other day at the flying field and ruined the flying that day.
08-19-2004, 10:41 PM
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RE: Electric Tacos
One of our favorite combos is the 1020/15, 5:1 GWS GB, APC 11x7, & a 3 cell nets over 47oz of thrust and 298watts!
if that is drawing 28 amps on your setup then B-P-P must be wrong about the thrust,THIS IS DRIVING ME CRAZZZZY, I'm not doing this for arguments sake, i want truth and NOT BS, i'm sick of all the BS from everybody regarding e-crap[:-]
i'm assuming they did not do RMS and that comes out to about 25amps(298watts/12v, realisticaly its probably closser to 29A)
same as my 2808-24 setup, on a 10x3.8 at 8000RPM
the gearbox is different i see, do you think that would account for the diff?
iff the weather is crappy again tomorrow i'm yanking my motor to put back on the stand and i will calibrate it, check current with a watt meter and RPM, with several props.[:@][:@][:@]
08-19-2004, 11:49 PM
#164
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RE: Electric Tacos
I wasn't jumping on anybody, you asked for numbers, I gave numbers.
re the 12X6SF vs the 13X6.5E. The E props draw a lot less amps, and put out a lot less static thrust than the the SF props. I would rather run the SF, the 12X6SF in particular...but I'm kinda worried about slinging a blade. So the 13X6.5E is the best alternative, it does turn faster than the 12X6SF.
As for the B-P-P ad.. I can only guess they are running a 11X7SF, at 5:1. My highest ratio is 5.83:1, lowest 6:1 (I have lower, but these are the 2 motors I have mounted.) The higher ratio they are running will draw more amps, they made this ad before the Cobri gearboxes came out, that's why I can do so much better, I'm not addled by the GWS ratio restrictions. In all honesty, their "favorite" set-up would never even make my 3rd string cut.
I can't count how many times in the last few posts I have said, "if you are happy with the Axi, use it" or something to that effect. And I still say it. Not everybody cares about the things that make me tick.
Now all I have to do is cook 4 sides of ribs and squeeze 80 limes
re the 12X6SF vs the 13X6.5E. The E props draw a lot less amps, and put out a lot less static thrust than the the SF props. I would rather run the SF, the 12X6SF in particular...but I'm kinda worried about slinging a blade. So the 13X6.5E is the best alternative, it does turn faster than the 12X6SF.
As for the B-P-P ad.. I can only guess they are running a 11X7SF, at 5:1. My highest ratio is 5.83:1, lowest 6:1 (I have lower, but these are the 2 motors I have mounted.) The higher ratio they are running will draw more amps, they made this ad before the Cobri gearboxes came out, that's why I can do so much better, I'm not addled by the GWS ratio restrictions. In all honesty, their "favorite" set-up would never even make my 3rd string cut.
I can't count how many times in the last few posts I have said, "if you are happy with the Axi, use it" or something to that effect. And I still say it. Not everybody cares about the things that make me tick.
Now all I have to do is cook 4 sides of ribs and squeeze 80 limes
08-20-2004, 04:04 PM
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RE: Electric Tacos
thanks to the explination, it just sunk in, i must have missed the E and SF designations and the redline threw me off..
NICE etaco is that your 2nd or 3rd? how does it H.A.K.E.
i'm comin over for ribs
i'm still really frustrated with the lack of good info (not your info) for e-power setups even axi's info is crap[:@]
NICE etaco is that your 2nd or 3rd? how does it H.A.K.E.
i'm comin over for ribs
i'm still really frustrated with the lack of good info (not your info) for e-power setups even axi's info is crap[:@]
08-20-2004, 06:21 PM
#167
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RE: Electric Tacos
Jeremy, what motor and gearbox are you runnig on your edgeling ?
08-21-2004, 08:42 PM
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RE: Electric Tacos
Alright guys I have read thru the thread..... Got an Etaco half built a Tantic 2500 3 cell bought gonna go with the Lehner 10/20/15 in a cobri gear box 6:3:1 I think thats the right one but what Prop? Also what servos are you guys useing I know Auger uses some diamond servos that right? and where from? Also is there another place to get the Lenher motors the web site is all messed up on my computer an I simply wont use PAYPAL they have burnt me two many times in the past(long story) I also asume Bishop Power Products is a email only store hence NO phone number I have a couple of emails in but no repley as of yet but there only since Friday..... Any help fellas? Thanks in Advance
08-21-2004, 10:07 PM
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RE: Electric Tacos
Well that don't sound promising.........whats a good motor as an alternative in the same gear box does a Razor fit the bill as well as the Lehner?
08-22-2004, 09:40 PM
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RE: Electric Tacos
Dang sure looks like you guys would read a touch before ya get on here posting email this and email that blh blah blah Sorry b-p-p
Thanks for the heads up Chuck!
Sorry b-p-pThanks for the heads up Chuck!
08-23-2004, 07:28 AM
#175
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RE: Electric Tacos
I used blue bird 380MG servos in my e taco. Only 20 bucks a pc at AV8hobbies. 50 oz of torque fast and metal gears. Working well so far. Jeff williams and Wayne geffon both flew mine over the weekend and both seemed impressed. The servo's can be had at balsa products as well but they are a bit more pricey.
Stanoo, better go ahead and buy an axi for yours [:'(]
Stanoo, better go ahead and buy an axi for yours
[:'(]