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  1. #1
    tailskid's Avatar
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    Tuff Flight's 4D

    Anyone have any experience with this plane yet?

    Jerry
    # 93 in Club Saito; Carl Goldberg Ultimate Brotherhood # 12; Pulse brother # 2;Hellcat Brotherhood #8;P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #18

  2. #2

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    No experience, just watched their video. Did you see their new fuselage for it....more scale-like?

  3. #3
    tailskid's Avatar
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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I have the 4D 'kit' and will start building it tomorrow.....yeah, I like the 'scale' look!


    Jerry
    # 93 in Club Saito; Carl Goldberg Ultimate Brotherhood # 12; Pulse brother # 2;Hellcat Brotherhood #8;P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #18

  4. #4

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I'm working on one right now.

    I'll post some pics as I go along. I got the wing "together" in about 1 hour. I've got the "deluxe" kit. It's pretty complete.

    I love the instructions. Step by Step and holding your hand all the way. This is great considering for a lot of people, this will be the first time they use any of the glues this bird calls for.

    The wing is EPP foam. This will definitely drive the durability rating up. EPP can take a tremendous amount of abuse and still be in flying condition. The wing is also a Triple Taper design. I like that as well.
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  5. #5
    tailskid's Avatar
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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Dave,

    I think you are at the same place in assembly as I am - what engine you going to put into it? Servos? I called them and they recommended the cheap 'standard' servos...I'm thinking of some HiTech's.....

    Jerry
    # 93 in Club Saito; Carl Goldberg Ultimate Brotherhood # 12; Pulse brother # 2;Hellcat Brotherhood #8;P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #18

  6. #6

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I built one about three months ago. The good thing I can say about it is that its very durable. The bad thing is that it does not fly that great. At least mine didn't. Couple things to keep in mind, first is the Nyrods. They allow the the elevator and rudder to flutter very easily, especially the rudder. I put a carbon rod on the rudder after a couple flights. The elevator was okay as long as I kept the speed down, but still had to much play for my liking. Also do to the large side area it weather vanes into the wind, so plan one taking off DIRECTLY into the wind if its over a couple KTS. Just remember that its an aerobatic trainer not a precision aerobatic plane. But like I said it is VERY durable and as long as you keep some extra bamboo rods and nylon bolts around you should be able to crash and be back in the air in no time.

  7. #7
    tailskid's Avatar
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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    naamanf, what servos did you use?

    Jerry
    # 93 in Club Saito; Carl Goldberg Ultimate Brotherhood # 12; Pulse brother # 2;Hellcat Brotherhood #8;P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #18

  8. #8

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Here's the equipment I'm putting in.

    RX: Hitec Super Slim
    Servos:
    Rudder - Hitec 475
    Elevator - Hitec 475
    Ailerons - JR 537's
    Throttle - Futaba 3003

    Motor: OS46FX
    Prop: 11.5 x 4 APC

    Battery: Still undecided, but it will be a 6volt system. I've got an 1100mah Nimh which I am testing on the cycler at the moment. If it tests good, then it will probably be the battery of choice.


    Please keep in mind, this plane is made to fly 3D. Speed and 3D do not work together. Any true 3D bird is made to fly slow and will flutter if flown too fast. naamanf may be right on the linkages, but flying too fast will do the same thing.
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  9. #9

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I used 525BB on 6.0V all around. They worked just fine.

  10. #10

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    You got it Latch. The tail is "loose" on purpose to aid crashability and maintenance. You don't fly pattern with this bird, you play games in slo motion at low altitude. If you insist at flying fast, the tail will "buck" and that is your signal to throttle back. IF the plane is built per the instructions (not over-engineering the linkages) it won't really hurt anything if the flutter persists, but of course it will look silly.
    Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it.

  11. #11

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Thats pretty much the way mine flew. The bucking of the tail happened at any moderate speed before I made a better connection to the rudder. During blenders I normally give full down elevator and flip the plane upright. Do to the nyrod config on the elevator the down position had a good deal of play and didn't allow it to flip like I am use to. I found this out early and just exited them upside down in a harrier or flew out. Well on the last flight I dumb thumbed and and tried to flip it. Didn't happen. It hit the ground very hard. I was expecting it to be a big mess. What I found was two broken nylon bolts and some broken bamboo rods. This plane is very dibble and I think it would take quite some effort to really destroy it. I could have had it flying with again with little effort, but decided to remove everything for another aircraft. I also wish I would have made the electronics more easily removed.

  12. #12

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    One more tip on servos and control setup:

    The deluxe kits come with the large Dubro "T" style control horns, and instructions show exactly which hole to use for clevis connection. Not all brands of servos come with large (1" or greater) servo arms, and you may not get desired deflection on elevator throw due to the standard servo arm not being long enough. Dubro makes large grey (or white, depending on brand) "super strength" servo arms to fit all brands of servos which will give the needed travel to get 50 degrees of elevator travel up and down. Having the bigger dimension on both the servo end AND the control surface end is the key to minimizing flutter while keeping the big throws for good 3D.

    Regarding servo selection, I've found a very good standard class servo is the "EXPERT" brand SL571 Standard High Torque BB servo. I get them at my LHS for $20 each. Specs are as follows:

    Torque : 62 oz*in at 4.8V
    Speed .21 sec/60 deg at 4.8 V
    Weight: 1.35 oz.

    The speed isn't all that fast, however, the torque is very good for this weight servo. Using 4 of these and one HS 225MG on the throttle garuntees a rubust and lightweight setup.
    Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it.

  13. #13

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Wind Junkie,

    Where are you finding these "Expert" Servos?

    Thanks.
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  14. #14

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I am on my second 4D and I must say in my opinion it is the best 3D practice plane available. My first must have well over 50 crashes and is still air worthy today. I built and flown 3 different types of 3D airplanes without any success before I built the 4D.

    I was always so concerned about crashing I never flew close to the ground. In one instance I was trying to hover close to the ground and my engine quit, I picked up the pieces and went home. I can't tell you how many times I dorked my 4D's just because I ran out of fuel in a hover, just having to much fun. The most damage I did on the 4D's is a couple broken nylon bolts and a broken prop.

    Four months later I can torque roll my 4D inches off the ground all day long and perform some pretty nice and low rolling circles. I know I have a long way to go, but the 4D surely takes alot of the frustration out of crashing.

    The reason why I purchased a 4D is I'm in the process of building a Carden 35% Edge and I didn't want to learn on that ;-) The 4D along with a decent flight simulator will get you flying 3D in a short period of time.

    I will get some video the next time I go out and post it. One last thing... I have learned through trial and error to build the 4D just as described in thier VERY complete instruction manual. If you follow the directions step by step I'm confident you will end up with a great flying 3D practice plane.

    Steve

  15. #15

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    After a few minutes of googling, I found expert servos at "totally RC" Here:

    http://www.totallyrc.com/rc-airplane...B-exrsl571.htm

    I'm a fan of buying local, but these guys look to have good prices if you can't find them near you.
    Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it.

  16. #16

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Here's the 4D wing. One hour after opening the box.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  17. #17

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Here's a shot of the glues you will need for this build.

    I've used 3M77 and ProBond before, but GOOP was new to me. I found the 3M77 and ProBond at Walmart. My wife finally found the GOOP at TrueValue.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #18

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I added lines where the CF rods would go for the hinges on the horizontal stab and rudder. This way I would make sure they lined up correctly.
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  19. #19

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Don't do what I did. Put the Control Horn for the rudder in the right place the first time. If you use the patterns supplied in the kit correctly you can avoid this minor problem.

    Here is the rudder control horn in the RIGHT spot.
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  20. #20

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Here's the fus pieces, the rudder, and the horizontal stabs.

    Do what the instructions say and use Mineral Spirits to remove the glue residue after you pull away the patterns. Works like a charm!
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  21. #21

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I've been flying my 4D for several months now and I really like it! To get rid of the flutter completely you have to balance the tail surfaces. It worked like a charm on mine. The plane is really capable of what the company claims. Slow knife edge flight is awsome. I'll post some pics of my tail balancing method. The weights are just oblong shaped lead sinkers that have a hole through them. Just take some pushrod wire and poke them into the leading edge about 1.5'' deep. Dissconnect the pushrod to the control surface so as to let it swing freely. Then slide the weight in and out on the wire until it balances on the pivot point of the surface. Then glue and cover the weight with JB Weld glue. My surfaces are not very stiff. They have a bit of play in them. With the counterbalances I get NO FLUTTER! Try it, you wo'nt be sorry.......... Jeff
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  22. #22

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Hey Jeff, Thanks for sharing your balance method. I will definitely try it out.

    Do the weights stay on the tail in violent "maneuvers?" I'm curious if they will actually hold up to my style of crashing.
    Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it.

  23. #23

    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    I have a YS .63 on mine and have bee flying it every chance I get. I love doing endless torque rolls (at least try to) especially when the wind is low. Then for added kicks I use some root-beer or coconut nitro scent and give the whole field a treat.
    I have crashed about 50 times this summer (some hard and some soft) and haven't needed any basement work on it. And best of all it fit's in the back seat fully assembled.
    Nice pictures Latch66
    God help me, I do love it so!

  24. #24

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    Hi Ultimate99. You say you crashed about 50 times.....all with the YS.63 running? If so, which prop do you use and about what % of the time did you loose the prop??? I am considering this 4D as a project and with a 4 stroker so prop expenses are a factor. APC 14x4W props are about $10 each at Central Hobbies so THIS is what I am pondering, gulp. The 4D folks recommend the tougher MAS 13x5 as an alternative.....maybe if I limit the revs on a Saito.82.

    What has been your propeller budget, LOL!!!???

  25. #25

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    RE: Tuff Flight's 4D

    ORIGINAL: GarySS

    Hi Ultimate99. You say you crashed about 50 times.....all with the YS.63 running? If so, which prop do you use and about what % of the time did you loose the prop??? I am considering this 4D as a project and with a 4 stroker so prop expenses are a factor. APC 14x4W props are about $10 each at Central Hobbies so THIS is what I am pondering, gulp. The 4D folks recommend the tougher MAS 13x5 as an alternative.....maybe if I limit the revs on a Saito.82.

    What has been your propeller budget, LOL!!!???
    Mark finds that he gets twice the duration out of his props then most people. After losing a blade, he just continues to run till the second one goes too.

    (look at his avatar for proof...)
    Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig. Everyone gets dirty and the pig likes it.


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