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Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Old 01-20-2008, 08:26 PM
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glover1482
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Default Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

I'm building an OMP 10-300 Ultimate kit and am concerned about the engine mount. I plan to use a YS-110 that I purchased with an OMP Fusion90. The Fusion90 ARF fell apart due to engine vibration after only about 200 flights.

My questions are two. First, how might I install a Hyde mount in a profile fuselage to protect the model from vibration damage? Second, What other engine with less vibration tendencies would work well in this toy (maybe one with a pipe to direct exhaust residue away from the model)? (If I get another engine, then I can get a pattern ARF like the Focus Sport for the YS-110.)

An ARF falling apart is one thing; but considering the efforts related to kit building, a short lived kit would not make me happy. I'm just about ready to glue the fuselage sandwich together, and want to make any adjustments that I might need to make the engine mount area stronger. (Now I must note that the 10-300 fuselage does have a front-end ply doubler that was not on the Fusion90. So, it might be strong enough to support the YS-110.)

Thanks for your constructive suggestions, Glover


PS I've never seen a Hyde mount; and except for the afore mentioned YS-110 and a YS-63 in a FusionX3D, I have no glow engine experience.
Old 01-20-2008, 08:40 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Glover1482,

After only 200 flights, man that’s a lot for a high performance profile. I wish mine lasted that long!! My giant scales kits at 200 flights have had many failures. The Hyde mount is meant for full fuse airframes and in my view hinders more than helps.

The best thing you can do a high mileage is check the plane frequently. At that mileage, most have recovered once or twice and fixed any issues that might have occurred after the covering is removed. After all, these planes are only balsa. Hope this helps.

Tim
Old 01-20-2008, 08:47 PM
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SukhoiKid
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

wow 200 flights. I wish any of my planes would last that long. I fly too hard!!! All I can say you need to check your plane more often after getting that high in the number of flights. I know I do a pre flight check to all my planes before flying.
Old 01-20-2008, 08:58 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Now that I think about it, a YS 110 is huge power on the plane!! Tons of fun but some pre flight involved.
Old 01-20-2008, 08:59 PM
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glover1482
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Wow 200 flights is a lot????? Four years ago I started in this hobby as a slope soaring enthusiast. I've got slope toys with as many as 1500 flights, and still going strong! So, ten flights a day for 20 days, and the toy is ready to fall apart... I guess that I need to go back to the slope!

Fly safe, Glover
Old 01-20-2008, 09:03 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Dude,

Slope dose not equil YS 110. I enjoy slope and know it well, but you cant compair the two are powered in this way.


Cheers,

Tim
Old 01-20-2008, 09:06 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

how can you compare the two???
profile+ys110=a lot of abuse over 200 flights.
Old 01-20-2008, 10:15 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Oops! I'm sorry that I blew up. Glow toys are intended to distruct in 200 flights or less? I would never have guessed that to be true. I've had gasoline powered toys that lasted a lot more than 200 flights. (They died due to pilot error and not engine vibration.) Glow surely must be different. Next summer I'll most definitely poll guys at the field to find out their experiences with glow powered toy duration. I most surely must be wrong, but I remember guys with toys that looked to be several years old.

Does anyone have a non YS-110 engine suggestion for the OMP 10-300 Ultimate?

Fly safe, Glover
Old 01-20-2008, 10:38 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

YS110 puts a lot of stress on a 91 size airplane. Thats if you fly like I do. Plus you got to understand it is a 3D airplane. A regular airplane will last longer but planes like this that does extreme 3D dont expect to last forever!
Old 01-20-2008, 11:44 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?


ORIGINAL: glover1482

Oops! I'm sorry that I blew up. Glow toys are intended to distruct in 200 flights or less? I would never have guessed that to be true. I've had gasoline powered toys that lasted a lot more than 200 flights. (They died due to pilot error and not engine vibration.) Glow surely must be different. Next summer I'll most definitely poll guys at the field to find out their experiences with glow powered toy duration. I most surely must be wrong, but I remember guys with toys that looked to be several years old.

Does anyone have a non YS-110 engine suggestion for the OMP 10-300 Ultimate?

Fly safe, Glover
Glover,

I manufacture ARF’s for a living and know what I’m talking about. I’m not interested in picking a fight but you’re taking a bit of a high road and I totally disagree with you. 200 flights on a vibrating ass YS 110 is reasonable. If you want some valuable advice, I think I can help.

On your bipe build, use Poly glue on the fuse and the motor mount. This will achieve the desired effect you’re looking for. If you need more, email me and I will help.

Cheers,

Tim
Old 01-21-2008, 08:07 AM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

The YS 1.10 is a little overkill on the Ultimate also IMHO. I flew mine (Which is the one in the RCU review btw) with a Super Tigre .90 2-stroke. The Super tigre is a pretty weak engine compared to something like a OS .91 2-stroke which I think would be perfect for the Ultimate and still in the overpowered range. Mike designed the Ultimate to fly on any powerfull .60~.90 sized 2-stroke and trust me at 2,8kg dry which is what the Ultimate gets to with a .90 2-stroke it's way overpowered and oodles of fun to fly. My old Ultimate I gave to a very good friend of mine as transporting it without taking it apart was impossible for me and I just hated having to assemble and dissasemble it everytime out, he now uses a Saito 1.25 on it and it's got foamy power. He admits regularly it's a little overpowered and gets tricky to get that sweetspot for the high alpha manuvers. On that same note however I built the Ultimate with good quality epoxy and just glued the mount/sheeting and everything together with a generous amount of glue around the nose area. It will handle the vibrations of the big four strokes just fine if you glue it together properly.
Old 01-21-2008, 08:24 AM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Let me see if I can help. The OMP 50" Ultimate weighs in at about 6 1/4 - 6 1/2 lbs max. That's an awefully light airplane for a YS 110 but certainly doable if you know how to manage the power. The weight and mass of an airframe absorbs the vibrations and torque of an engine so if you understand that then you understand that you have to match the two properly. We put massive amounts of power on our planes these days and with that comes added responsibility and attention. The ultimate engine for the Ultimate......that would be the ultimate Ultimate engine lol................is the Saito 100. I've flo9wn the Ultimate with the OS .91 and that was a good combination but the bipe with the Saito makes a perfect combination.

Glover, you can put the YS 110 on the bipe and I would not hesitate at all if that was the only engine choice I had. Build the plane per the instructions. Use Epoxy on the engine mount beams and associated pieces and use epoxy to glue the mount into the fuse. As Tim says use a good poly glue for the fuse to foam sheeting. I like Gorilla glue the best. Be sure to understand how to use poly glues though as you must put weight on the assembly while drying. If you have ever built giant scale foam wings then you know what I mean. My Ultimate is the second one we built for OMP and still going strong after 4+ years now.

Oh, I forgot one other tip you may not have read yet and that is if you fly off a grass field angle the landing gear more forward to prevent tipping over. You can move the mounting blocks in the foam cores appropriately or just move the top hole back slightly and the bottom hole forward slightly. The stock location is more scale looking and works fine for hard surfaces. Good luck and keep the questions coming.
Old 01-21-2008, 10:42 AM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

"The ultimate engine for the Ultimate......that would be the ultimate Ultimate engine lol................is the Saito 100."

Now, does this engine vibrate less than the YS-110? If so then that's what I'll purchase. (I purchased the YS-110 from OMP as a package deal with the Fusion90, so I assumed it was a "match made in heaven".)

An autopsy of the Fusion90 showed that the balsa beams in the front 1/3 of the fuselage had simply fallen apart. Except for brief moments related to engine tuning the YS-110 never went over 1/2 throttle when mounted in the Fusion90. I flew the Fusion90 much like one would fly a pattern plane. Although my skills let me down regularly, my main flight thought is smoothness... with lots of loops, rolls inverted, etc. and with no "hanging from the prop". The YS-110 would "really shake" the Fusion90 when stopping, as "throttle down" was activated at the end of a flight.

My first wet powered toy (the OMP Hybrid Edge powered by Evolution 58) never showed signs of vibration wear. So I was very surprised by the failure of the Fusion90. I want the 10-300 to be more like the Hybrid than the Fusion90.

Thanks for your constructive suggestions, Glover.
Old 01-21-2008, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

You're welcome Glover. Not sure if the Saito is any worse or not than the YS. I'd say the two brands are probably the same as far as vibration given the same size motor. The 110 being only slightly bigger than the 100 might have a little more moving mass which equates to more vibration.....maybe. There are a lot of factors. The YS would spin a bigger prop as well than the Saito 100. Bigger prop means more rotating mass and thus more torque transferred to the airframe. If you had a choice on engines I'd go with the Saito 100 for the Ultimate. Way more than enough power and sounds good on the bipe as well!
Old 01-21-2008, 03:25 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

OK, Mike; thanks for assisting an old man who is relatively new to our hobby.

I have just finished poly glueing the fuselage sandwich. It is currently snuggled under three 94lb bags of concrete for the next day or so.

Also, thanks for the landing gear tip. I do fly from grass, and will rake the landing gear forward as you suggest.

The information I can find on the Saito 100 leaves me to believe that I'll just use the YS-110. Your "maybe" makes me quess that the only difference is half dozen or so ounces of saved weight... not a big deal. I'll just do any tuneing of the YS-110 on a test stand.

But in the next week or so, I'll do some research on two cycle engines to see if I'd be happier with one of them hanging from the pointy end of my 10-300. Besides, I need an excuse to try out a glow two cycle engine; and I need to learn about tuned pipes also! Maybe I can combine the subjects!

It is my dream that a well assembled foam fuselage will be more durable than the one of the Fusion90 ARF. I should have kept my question to myself, and just "gotten on with it". After all while this hobby is my job, and "it is a hobby"! But then again, I'd have missed out on the landing gear tip!

Fly safe, Glover


PS To those of you who believe that ARF's should last only 200 flights, check with places like OMP and see if they will be willing to put such a statement on any airframe they sell. Then let me know if any of them say "YES".
Old 01-21-2008, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?


ORIGINAL: glover1482

PS To those of you who believe that ARF's should last only 200 flights, check with places like OMP and see if they will be willing to put such a statement on any airframe they sell. Then let me know if any of them say "YES".
Just to add another data point, pattern aircraft are also very lightly built, with 2M planes having 74" span, ~950sqin wing area, huge fuselages and massive power. They are expected to last several thousand flights under these conditions. Pattern pilots are generally very careful with maintenance and not beating the airframe as well, which is not usually typical in 3D profiles. They religously use soft mounts and many have measured much lower servo current draw using the soft mounts to reduce vibration.

Just a thought relating to the use of soft mounts and on the Hyde mount in particular, since it is the gold standard for pattern use. Properly installed, it makes a huge difference in airframe life and does not cause more problems than it solves. Installing one in a profile would be challenging, though, because of the nose ring requirement.

Mark
Old 01-21-2008, 04:23 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

200 flights may be alot depending on how the plane was flown. Blenders, waterfalls, high speed flight or other strenious manuevers could reduce the life of a 3D profile. 4 strokes do beat up on an airframe more than a 2 stroke, and the ys 110 ( my favorite engine) is the king of beating an airframe. keeping the engine tight ( no loose motor mounting screws) the prop balanced and tuned well will help.
if i were going to build the ultimate id go saito 100, or os 90AX 2 stroke.
Old 01-21-2008, 04:55 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

As many of the others have said 200 hundred flights does not seem like a lot of flights to me. I don't understand why the engine should ever shake the plane apart if everything is kept balanced. On the soft mount. The profiles I have soft mounted I used lords mounts and acouple of aluminum plates. It really will cut vibration, but the problem of the plane tearing itself apart at idle I am not sure you can do much for it.
Old 01-21-2008, 07:52 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?


ORIGINAL: MRMcFarlandM

As many of the others have said 200 hundred flights does not seem like a lot of flights to me. I don't understand why the engine should ever shake the plane apart if everything is kept balanced. On the soft mount. The profiles I have soft mounted I used lords mounts and acouple of aluminum plates. It really will cut vibration, but the problem of the plane tearing itself apart at idle I am not sure you can do much for it.

On my well mounted and secured YS-110, I've only run APC 16x4W props that were both blade and hub balanced.

On the vibration issue, I've done some more online reading today about two cycle engines and think that I might wonder on down to the local hobby store and get them to order an OS 120AX for the 10-300. And escomposites even has a pipe for it. This could be fun! Now to the experts amoung us (or even the opinionated, as my motto is: "Frequently wrong, never in doubt!") should I get a "pump" (whatever that is, as my research is not yet complete)?

Fly safe, Glover
Old 01-22-2008, 08:08 AM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

The new OS 120 AX is gaining popularity very quickly on the full up 90 size models like the 65" Yak and the 67" Fusion. Tons of power over the .91 FX and even a tad more than the YS 110. You can easily spin a 17-6 prop with the 120 and you might want to really think about that much prop on the front of the 6 1/2 lb bipe. Might be just fine, or you might just be flying around at 1/4 throttle all the time.

On the soft mount for a profile this sounds like a great topic for a new thread. I'm familiar with the pattern flying as well. The fuselages are almost all fiberglass these days and a lot of folks have gone electric. Also a wide 3 dimensional fuselage is much stiffer and absorbs loads better than a thin 2-dimensional fuse. I think on the profiles one could sandwich medium hard rubber strips between the engine and mount using long metal plates to distribute the loads. Problem is you would move teh engine outboard to the right. Hmmmm......would take some thinking for sure. [sm=50_50.gif]
Old 01-22-2008, 02:22 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

I made my own soft mounts for profiles years ago. I cut tuned pipe silicon tubing(the grey works best)in strips, lay one under and one on top of the engine mounting flanges. Now for the part that most dont like to do, I drill out the flange holes enough to accept fuel tubing, then I use smaller screws to bolt down the engine(must fit inside the tubing in the flange holes).Last, for the top strip of silicon, use flat peice of aluminum or some other light metal , drill 2 holes to match the flange holes & then lay on top, bolt thru the metal strip, thru the fuel tubing inserted inside the flange holes, then on thru the rails. Now you have the engine "floating " on nothing but compressed silicon, the bolts do not come in contact with the flanges,they are inside the fuel tubing. I have done this for .40-.90 size engines and its lasts for a long time, you might have to tighten the bolts after 50-100 flights. Its a bit of work, some dont like to drill out the flange holes, re-sale might be an issue later, it doesnt look real good, however it works beautifully! I will not spend over $100 for a Hyde mount- rediculous unless you compete, & make enough to afford it!!! Dont over tighten the bolts, just enough to compress the silicon strips, the engine will feel pretty stiff but it will allow movement to absorb vibration. I might do this for my Fusion 90 ARF after reading this post!
Old 01-22-2008, 06:51 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

MixMaster... I like your ideas! Thanks a lot!

I have successfully used rubber-backed washers in vibration prone areas. Also, I have grey silicon amoung my junk bins. So whether I opt to use my YS-110 or purchase a two cycle engine, I'm sure that I'll adapt your suggestions. Reaming out mount holes will not bother me, particularly since I almost never consider re-sale value. I already use medal strips on the back side of my profile engine mounts as a washer to reduce crushing the wood.

Fly safe, Glover
Old 01-22-2008, 09:51 PM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

What about putting the bolts in front and behind the flange then you don't have to drill out the motor flanges. You could make it so you still use fule tubing and maybe some carbon fiber guide pins to locate the engine and then still use the aluminum plate and silicone over and under the motor flange but with the bolts in front and behind the engine. How does that sound?
Old 01-23-2008, 12:22 AM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Mike, I believe that I'm following your tweek of MixMaster's suggestion. I'll pull the YS out of its box and see what might work. Like I said, I'm not opposed to reaming out the flange holes. But the least work for me and least added weight for the toy the better for both.

Maybe I can build-up a small bolt like a 2-56 by sheathing it with multiple layers of heat shrink tubeing until it's the size of the flange holes instead of using fuel tubeing. It will be interesting to see how much the YS jumps around under the aluminum plates (or stainless steel). I'll need to make the test stand "a little flimsy" so that I can see how much vibration gets past the mount.

I just wish it were not so very cold in my garage. That's why I like to be glueing balsa this time of year! But then again, I have just begun this project and the only glue already applied is to the fuselage (which looks to be rather sturdy... wishful thinking). In fact this afternoon I was able to take the three bags of concrete back to the store and get my refund. I know... I'm a bad boy; but I did not have any other weights handy to hold the poly glue for drying! At least I actually returned them all the way to their original pallet in the store.

Whatever I end up doing about the engine for the 10-300, I look forward to adding this toy to my hanger for abuse next summer. I'm enjoying gas and glow toys so much that I may give my sailplanes and electrics to my grandson... lucky guy.

Thanks to all, and fly safe, Glover
Old 01-23-2008, 03:47 AM
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Default RE: Hyde engine mount in a profile model?

Don't give away all those sailplanes and electrics! Between my 10odd 3D glow planes and helis I still have 7 odd gliders and a bunch of electrics. Hehehe...they all still get airtime trust me.

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