J600R start problem
07-09-2007, 04:47 PM
#1
J600R start problem
Hi Kraivuth, I've spoken with Dean Wichmann about this and emailed Kelly W about it but thought I'd post here for you to take a look at it as well. Here is a copy and paste of what I sent to Kelly.
Yesterday I went out to test fly my dad's Reaction 54 (he left it with me
after Princeton to get it finished).
I read the 600 instructions front to back, back to front, and
random pages at a time, I have never had this issue with my 1300.
Anyway, here's what I went through:
1. I did the ECU teach, physical parameters, throttle min trim min etc.
2. Did a quick check at the shop to make sure it would initiate the start
sequence from my transmitter, yup, all is good.
3. Headed out to the field
4. Plane assembled and fueled, topped up the rx and TEMS battery for good
measure.
5. Filled the start gas with powermax and primed the pump.
6. All systems on, ready to go, trim to max, and cycle the throttle
stick, idle, full, idle.
7. The engine lit on the start gas then almost immediately went out.
8. Tried again, this time I left the power max connected thinking maybe
it didn't have enough for some reason.
9. Initiated start once more, wouldn't light on anything, in fact, only
spooled on the electric motor up once.
10. Tried once more, electric motor spooled up to 15,000 and stayed
there, nothing more happened, it wouldn't spool down either, I had to pull the trim on my radio back to minimum.
11. Read manual again........
12. Read that it could be to much pressure from the start gas causing the
solenoid to not open, so I emptied the start gas canister and filled it
again, less than the first time, about 1/2 I would guess.
13. Start up, same thing, spools up, then slows down, never lights.
14. I noticed that during this time the GDT was reading "M5 Glow on" but
the Glow on dissappeared after about a half second and it reads "ramp"
15. Still no start, so I try once more, same thing, "M5 Glow on" then
almost immediately it changes to ramp, only this time it spools to 15,000
(according to the GDT) and stays there, the reading changes from M5 to M6
and stays there.
16. Read the manual again, think to myself, well, maybe the glow plug
isn't getting hot enough so I up it from the 180 it was at to 210,
17. Try again, this time I notice also that the EGT is jumping from 24
degrees (the temp outside) to about 150ish and then back down, still no
start.
18. Out of frustration I thought maybe I screwed something up while going
through the settings so I did a reset on it, then redid the teach etc.
19. I tried a few more times with exactly the same results.
So in short, the solenoid is hooked up correctly and you can hear it
activate when the engine spools up, there are no blocks anywhere, no kinks
etc. It's a brand new engine, only run at the factory. Battery was
reading 8.3 to 8.4V on the GDT, Pump was primed, ECU teach was done, plug
was good (pulled it twice to check it) Coils are plenty far out of the
plug.
Any idea's? I've never seen any problems with the 600's so I was a bit
surprised at this one not starting, however, maybe I screwed something up
in the set up? Any idea's would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jeremy
I should note also after speaking with Dean that during all of these start attempts, the EGT would be at 24C (the ambient temp) and would spike to about 150C then drop back down to 24 and bounce between 24 and 50C. The gas never did ignite so I don't know why the temp would vary like that. Dean did not know what the "M5 and M6" message is either, if I get a chance I will try to do another start tonight and maybe try to take some video of the GDT so you can see what it is doing.
As a point of interest, during my attempts, I disconnected and reconnected all the connectors for the engine and TEMS unit, checked all lines for kinks, wiggled the EGT probe, checked to make sure the probe was inserted the correct distance etc.
Yesterday I went out to test fly my dad's Reaction 54 (he left it with me
after Princeton to get it finished).
I read the 600 instructions front to back, back to front, and
random pages at a time, I have never had this issue with my 1300.
Anyway, here's what I went through:
1. I did the ECU teach, physical parameters, throttle min trim min etc.
2. Did a quick check at the shop to make sure it would initiate the start
sequence from my transmitter, yup, all is good.
3. Headed out to the field
4. Plane assembled and fueled, topped up the rx and TEMS battery for good
measure.
5. Filled the start gas with powermax and primed the pump.
6. All systems on, ready to go, trim to max, and cycle the throttle
stick, idle, full, idle.
7. The engine lit on the start gas then almost immediately went out.
8. Tried again, this time I left the power max connected thinking maybe
it didn't have enough for some reason.
9. Initiated start once more, wouldn't light on anything, in fact, only
spooled on the electric motor up once.
10. Tried once more, electric motor spooled up to 15,000 and stayed
there, nothing more happened, it wouldn't spool down either, I had to pull the trim on my radio back to minimum.
11. Read manual again........
12. Read that it could be to much pressure from the start gas causing the
solenoid to not open, so I emptied the start gas canister and filled it
again, less than the first time, about 1/2 I would guess.
13. Start up, same thing, spools up, then slows down, never lights.
14. I noticed that during this time the GDT was reading "M5 Glow on" but
the Glow on dissappeared after about a half second and it reads "ramp"
15. Still no start, so I try once more, same thing, "M5 Glow on" then
almost immediately it changes to ramp, only this time it spools to 15,000
(according to the GDT) and stays there, the reading changes from M5 to M6
and stays there.
16. Read the manual again, think to myself, well, maybe the glow plug
isn't getting hot enough so I up it from the 180 it was at to 210,
17. Try again, this time I notice also that the EGT is jumping from 24
degrees (the temp outside) to about 150ish and then back down, still no
start.
18. Out of frustration I thought maybe I screwed something up while going
through the settings so I did a reset on it, then redid the teach etc.
19. I tried a few more times with exactly the same results.
So in short, the solenoid is hooked up correctly and you can hear it
activate when the engine spools up, there are no blocks anywhere, no kinks
etc. It's a brand new engine, only run at the factory. Battery was
reading 8.3 to 8.4V on the GDT, Pump was primed, ECU teach was done, plug
was good (pulled it twice to check it) Coils are plenty far out of the
plug.
Any idea's? I've never seen any problems with the 600's so I was a bit
surprised at this one not starting, however, maybe I screwed something up
in the set up? Any idea's would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jeremy
I should note also after speaking with Dean that during all of these start attempts, the EGT would be at 24C (the ambient temp) and would spike to about 150C then drop back down to 24 and bounce between 24 and 50C. The gas never did ignite so I don't know why the temp would vary like that. Dean did not know what the "M5 and M6" message is either, if I get a chance I will try to do another start tonight and maybe try to take some video of the GDT so you can see what it is doing.
As a point of interest, during my attempts, I disconnected and reconnected all the connectors for the engine and TEMS unit, checked all lines for kinks, wiggled the EGT probe, checked to make sure the probe was inserted the correct distance etc.
07-09-2007, 07:39 PM
#2
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RE: J600R start problem
Hi Jeremy,
Powermax can have too much pressure at times but not to the extend that prevents start-up. Once the solenoid is frozen from gas pressure, it may take a bit of time to return to normal stage. Try by-passing the solenoid. Connect the gas direct and go thru the start sequence, slowly turn on the gas while the "G" is showing on the GDT and see if you get any ignition. This will isolate the potential problem with solenoid valve.
You can contact us direct at [email protected]
Regards,
Kraivuth S.
Powermax can have too much pressure at times but not to the extend that prevents start-up. Once the solenoid is frozen from gas pressure, it may take a bit of time to return to normal stage. Try by-passing the solenoid. Connect the gas direct and go thru the start sequence, slowly turn on the gas while the "G" is showing on the GDT and see if you get any ignition. This will isolate the potential problem with solenoid valve.
You can contact us direct at [email protected]
Regards,
Kraivuth S.
07-09-2007, 09:07 PM
#3
My Feedback: (2)
RE: J600R start problem
Hey Jeremy,
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier today. I was at work...
Echoing Kraivuth's response. The pressure from Powermax won't halt the valve's function. The 24V pneumatic valves we use at work operate in largely the same manner. The voltage drives an actuator, which then drives a mechanical advantage mechanism that's assisted by the air pressure (or in our case the gaseous powermax), which then drives the valve body. The only real reason it won't work is if part of the valve is frozen...
So, please tell me something. Is the red LED lighting up on the valve when you attempt a start? Also, if you unplug the EGT probe and temporarily plug it into the EGT probe on your 1300R, does the 600R pulse regularly again? That last part is strictly to isolate the EGT probe from a potential ground loop if the probe has failed. Please see the following thread for details...
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6001858/anchors_6010345/mpage_1/anchor/tm.htm#6010345]EGT probe troubleshooting thread[/link]
If it is the probe, I have PST's warranty stock here in Vancouver so we'll work something out. If you're coming to Princeton this weekend' bring the motor and I'll swap it out for you free of charge.
Kelly
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier today. I was at work...
Echoing Kraivuth's response. The pressure from Powermax won't halt the valve's function. The 24V pneumatic valves we use at work operate in largely the same manner. The voltage drives an actuator, which then drives a mechanical advantage mechanism that's assisted by the air pressure (or in our case the gaseous powermax), which then drives the valve body. The only real reason it won't work is if part of the valve is frozen...
So, please tell me something. Is the red LED lighting up on the valve when you attempt a start? Also, if you unplug the EGT probe and temporarily plug it into the EGT probe on your 1300R, does the 600R pulse regularly again? That last part is strictly to isolate the EGT probe from a potential ground loop if the probe has failed. Please see the following thread for details...
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6001858/anchors_6010345/mpage_1/anchor/tm.htm#6010345]EGT probe troubleshooting thread[/link]
If it is the probe, I have PST's warranty stock here in Vancouver so we'll work something out. If you're coming to Princeton this weekend' bring the motor and I'll swap it out for you free of charge.
Kelly
07-09-2007, 10:13 PM
#5
RE: J600R start problem
Hi Kelly, my symptoms sound exactly the same as the ones in the thread you showed me, I have another probe from my second 1300, I'll try it and if it works then I'll just get a replacement probe from you when I see you, not sure if I'll make princeton this weekend, my parents are coming out for a visit and dad has a new truck he wants some custom paint on.
I'll let you know!
Jeremy
I'll let you know!
Jeremy
07-09-2007, 10:22 PM
#6
RE: J600R start problem
So it's unlikely that the pressure from the start gas could cause the solenoid to not operate? Only reason I ask again is that is one of the trouble shooting suggestions in the manual.
Page 26
Problem:
2. No gas light up during start
Cause and Fixes:
Solenoid valve locked closed due to high pressure gas
Avoid pure propane. Use a maximum of 70/30 propane butane gas
I also read on page 8 of the manual to only fill the canister 1/4 to 1/2 full
I'm only mentioning this again because I want to know if that little canister should only be filled no more than 1/2 way, I've never noticed others doing this and I've never done that on my 1300, I just fill it until the powermax stops flowing :P
Page 26
Problem:
2. No gas light up during start
Cause and Fixes:
Solenoid valve locked closed due to high pressure gas
Avoid pure propane. Use a maximum of 70/30 propane butane gas
I also read on page 8 of the manual to only fill the canister 1/4 to 1/2 full
I'm only mentioning this again because I want to know if that little canister should only be filled no more than 1/2 way, I've never noticed others doing this and I've never done that on my 1300, I just fill it until the powermax stops flowing :P
07-09-2007, 10:29 PM
#7
RE: J600R start problem
ORIGINAL: G-ROOKIE
Try a new OS A3 plug and heat it up before pulling out the coils.
Try a new OS A3 plug and heat it up before pulling out the coils.
Hi, thanks for the thought, but I know the plug was good, we checked that a couple times, I think Kelly nailed the problem, gonna swap out the EGT probe and try again.
07-09-2007, 10:43 PM
#8
My Feedback: (2)
RE: J600R start problem
Jer, don't go to the bother of swapping it out yet. Just plug it into your other motor or another probe laying beside it on the bench. The 600R's ECU needs to see a probe in order to get an EGT reading, but since you're not actually starting it the EGT reading is of little importance... Don't try to actually start it on the bench, just initiate a start sequence with no propane and see if the motor pulses as it should in a normal start up. When you see it do the usual cyclic RPM routing, you've got the problem licked and it would then be worth changing the probe...
Kelly
Kelly
