Whittier Race
10-04-2004, 09:44 PM
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Whittier Race
Hope all the Western racers are coming to the Q40, 428 & APRA Whittier race on Oct 16th & 17th. The SGVRCL club puts on a great race and I’m sure the competition will be fierce. If you want to keep racing alive in Calif. it is imperative we have a good turn out. Due to poor turnout the last couple of years Whittier has already reduced its schedule from four 40-size races to two (the upcoming race is two one day races). We need at least 40 entries to insure Whittier will continue racing next year. So guys, this is more important than you know. Looks like the Basin will be cutting its schedule in half for next year due to poor turn out at our last two races. Whittier and the Basin are the only two fields racing 40-size pylon in Calif. So please, if you care about 40-size pylon racing make the effort and come to Whittier.
Barry
Barry
10-05-2004, 10:27 PM
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RE: Whittier Race
Hey Barry,
Why do you think that the numbers of racers are down in California? California has 30 million people living there and you can only get 40 people to a race?
Would you agree that something is wrong with our events? In the late 60's and early 70's there were far few RC'ers overall due to the extremely expensive radios (about $2000 for a basic 4 channel radio in todays dollars), yet NMPRA had around 600 members with about 1/3 living and racing in California. A large number of races had over 100 entries.
Bob
Why do you think that the numbers of racers are down in California? California has 30 million people living there and you can only get 40 people to a race?
Would you agree that something is wrong with our events? In the late 60's and early 70's there were far few RC'ers overall due to the extremely expensive radios (about $2000 for a basic 4 channel radio in todays dollars), yet NMPRA had around 600 members with about 1/3 living and racing in California. A large number of races had over 100 entries.
Bob
10-06-2004, 11:45 AM
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RE: Whittier Race
Bob:
You asked so here goes. This is just my perspective.
I wasn’t around during the “Glory Days” of pylon. Sonia and I started racing in 1997 primarily in the now defunct CCRA series. In the first full year of APRA racing Sonia and I attended 23 races and I would guess the average turn out was 35 to 40 entrants (counting those who flew 2 classes). The clubs putting on races we attended were as follows: Los Angeles, Whittier, Atascadero, Las Vegas, Reno, Sacramento, EBRC, Merced, Modesto, Medford and Phx. Of these clubs the only ones still racing are Los Angeles, Whittier, Phx. and Medford. So what happened? From my perspective, as one who has been deeply involved in both admin and racing, as those who were interested enough not only to go race but also be involved in putting on races have moved on and have not been replaced. As soon as these individuals quit or moved racing stopped at their clubs. When racing stopped most of the “casual” racers moved on to other things. I would think at this point in the Calif, Az. and NV we have gone from a racing pool of 300 to 75.
Until this year Los Angeles has done fairly well with turn out. The last several years we held 5 one-day races and 1 two-day race. This year the club decided to hold four two-day races (separate race each day) instead. This naturally meant more time between races. The first race, in April, had a huge turn out. Over 60 entries on Sat and over 70 on Sun. It was almost overwhelming and there were a lot of problems. From that point on entries declined to the point at our last race we had about 25 entrants. The club actually lost money on that race. The same thing is happening to us as the other clubs. For the last eight years I have been deeply involved in racing and promoting racing. I have been on the club board with a two-year stint as president, an NMPRA VP, President of the Valley Flyers Foundation, FAI Team manager and Contest Director. This year I have backed away from most of this and just want to race like everyone else. No one has stepped up to continue supporting racing so I fully expect to see the Los Angeles racing schedule down to one two day race in the next couple of years. If something isn’t done soon racing will be done in Southern Calif.
There are, of course, some bright spots. We are actually picking up new racers. Clark and his group from the Crosswinds. Wayne Cloud and his group from Taft. Kevin, Dave and Jacob from central Calif. Ken, Mitch, Larry and the rest from EBRC. Tom and Cheryl from Sacramento. And others. The problem is we have not picked up even one local race for these guys. They have to drive 400 miles to a race that may be blown or rained out or they may crash in the first round. Or they could stay home and watch NASCAR, CART, NHRA, IHRA, IRL, F1 and who knows how many other things on the tube.
My point is that LOCAL racing, without which there eventually will be no racing, is and has been on a downward spiral and unless racers are willing to get involved and put on local races racing as we know it is on the way out. There are at least five other fields in the west where a race could be run but none of the associated clubs have a racing continent and without that there will never be any racing activity. I think its amazing that the Elite racers, whose passion and dedication to racing cannot be disputed, are willing to spend thousands of dollars a year traveling to races but are unwilling to devote even a fraction of those resources to local racing.
Just my opinion
Barry
You asked so here goes. This is just my perspective.
I wasn’t around during the “Glory Days” of pylon. Sonia and I started racing in 1997 primarily in the now defunct CCRA series. In the first full year of APRA racing Sonia and I attended 23 races and I would guess the average turn out was 35 to 40 entrants (counting those who flew 2 classes). The clubs putting on races we attended were as follows: Los Angeles, Whittier, Atascadero, Las Vegas, Reno, Sacramento, EBRC, Merced, Modesto, Medford and Phx. Of these clubs the only ones still racing are Los Angeles, Whittier, Phx. and Medford. So what happened? From my perspective, as one who has been deeply involved in both admin and racing, as those who were interested enough not only to go race but also be involved in putting on races have moved on and have not been replaced. As soon as these individuals quit or moved racing stopped at their clubs. When racing stopped most of the “casual” racers moved on to other things. I would think at this point in the Calif, Az. and NV we have gone from a racing pool of 300 to 75.
Until this year Los Angeles has done fairly well with turn out. The last several years we held 5 one-day races and 1 two-day race. This year the club decided to hold four two-day races (separate race each day) instead. This naturally meant more time between races. The first race, in April, had a huge turn out. Over 60 entries on Sat and over 70 on Sun. It was almost overwhelming and there were a lot of problems. From that point on entries declined to the point at our last race we had about 25 entrants. The club actually lost money on that race. The same thing is happening to us as the other clubs. For the last eight years I have been deeply involved in racing and promoting racing. I have been on the club board with a two-year stint as president, an NMPRA VP, President of the Valley Flyers Foundation, FAI Team manager and Contest Director. This year I have backed away from most of this and just want to race like everyone else. No one has stepped up to continue supporting racing so I fully expect to see the Los Angeles racing schedule down to one two day race in the next couple of years. If something isn’t done soon racing will be done in Southern Calif.
There are, of course, some bright spots. We are actually picking up new racers. Clark and his group from the Crosswinds. Wayne Cloud and his group from Taft. Kevin, Dave and Jacob from central Calif. Ken, Mitch, Larry and the rest from EBRC. Tom and Cheryl from Sacramento. And others. The problem is we have not picked up even one local race for these guys. They have to drive 400 miles to a race that may be blown or rained out or they may crash in the first round. Or they could stay home and watch NASCAR, CART, NHRA, IHRA, IRL, F1 and who knows how many other things on the tube.
My point is that LOCAL racing, without which there eventually will be no racing, is and has been on a downward spiral and unless racers are willing to get involved and put on local races racing as we know it is on the way out. There are at least five other fields in the west where a race could be run but none of the associated clubs have a racing continent and without that there will never be any racing activity. I think its amazing that the Elite racers, whose passion and dedication to racing cannot be disputed, are willing to spend thousands of dollars a year traveling to races but are unwilling to devote even a fraction of those resources to local racing.
Just my opinion
Barry
10-06-2004, 01:24 PM
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RE: Whittier Race
Barry,
Excellent points in your post.
So how do we get clubs back into promoting a racing program, when the events we hold don't appeal to the average RC'er? If nobody in a club races, then it's unlikely that a club will hold a race. Are we too fast, too difficult, too expensive for the average guy? Remember to, the average mover and shaker at most clubs are older guys. Is there a solution? Can we make racing more interesting?
There does seem to be areas where racing is holding it's own, but overall it has fallen down.
What good has the Powermaster series been to Q40? It seemed like that lowered the number of local races.
Even this forum seems a bit dead.
Come on people, what needs to happen?
Excellent points in your post.
So how do we get clubs back into promoting a racing program, when the events we hold don't appeal to the average RC'er? If nobody in a club races, then it's unlikely that a club will hold a race. Are we too fast, too difficult, too expensive for the average guy? Remember to, the average mover and shaker at most clubs are older guys. Is there a solution? Can we make racing more interesting?
There does seem to be areas where racing is holding it's own, but overall it has fallen down.
What good has the Powermaster series been to Q40? It seemed like that lowered the number of local races.
Even this forum seems a bit dead.
Come on people, what needs to happen?
10-06-2004, 03:21 PM
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RE: Whittier Race
I currently race in Minnesota and we have a race every 2-4 weeks in either a local 424 event and/or 428. The 424 event always has 20+ entrees and the 428 has 12 or so I think. I'm not sure how they do it but it seems to be working. I think alot of people think that the planes are hard to handle and expensive.... Heck, I wish I had known what I know now and a quickie would have been my second plane and I would have had an extra year under my belt. I just think the clubs need some exposure to it and how fun it is....
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but that's what it seems like.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but that's what it seems like.
10-06-2004, 03:50 PM
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RE: Whittier Race
Bob:
To improve the state of racing I believe we need to attack it on several levels.
1. Local – Every racer should belong to one or more clubs. Once a member he or she should promote racing constantly. Bring your stuff to show and tell. Get involved in the program part of the meetings; do paint demos, racing equipment installation, question and answer sessions on racing trim and setup. Attend every meeting and support all club activities racing or otherwise. Help out at non-racing events. In other words make yourself a valuable asset to the club and someone who is respected and listened to. Next get on the board. When racing was going best we had 4 racers on the Valley Flyer Board. Take an entry level APRA / Slo-Quicky to the field and sport fly it. Try to get informal racing started. Become a CD. Once the foundation is in place and you have enough racers to insure a decent turn out suggest that the club try a race. It’s been my experience that most clubs will support most any kind of event if enough of their members want it. One of the things holding new racing back is the complexity of the required equipment. I would suggest using a system with only pylons and lap counter stations. No cut or turn lights. Simply fly 10 laps and count the cuts at the end. 1 cut 1 point, 2 cuts 0 points. No 11th lap. If the club wants or the field dictates fly two pole. Keep it Simple.
2. Regional – Start a regional racing series like the old CCRA. Keep running tallies of points by class on one of the supporting club’s web sites. The points encourage racers to attend. Have year-end trophies for the top three or four places in each class. Promote the events. Call all the racers prior to each event and get them enthusiastic about coming. Try and get outside sponsorship in both merchandise and cash so the racers and clubs stand to make or win more. Clubs would more agreeable if they were guaranteed a $1,000.00 or $1,500.00 net return. Above all promote, promote, promote.
3. National – The national organization’s primary focus should be on local entry level racing. 428 and 422 will take care of itself. Resources should be allocated to the regions to establish, promote and help fund racing. Build a strong organization with constant dialogue not only between the officers of the organization but the organization and the racers. Benefits to racers should be increased; Web based event calendar’s with contacts maintained by district VP’s should be on line. Current race results and point tallies should be on line.
4. Expense – I believe the expense involved is manageable. It really is inexpensive, as compared to any other form of racing, to compete in APRA / 424. The increment of cost moving from APRA/424 to 428/422 is a big one. We have lost several 428 guys the last couple of years due directly to the cost. We tend to consider APRA/424 a “beginners” event and expect those who become proficient at to move up to 428. We also do not like seeing proficient 428 and 422 pilots dropping back into APRA/424 for any reason other than they just can’t handle the fast classes any more. So if you get to the point you think 428 / 422 is just not worth the expense there really is no place to race under our current system. I’m about to the point where I think we need to break APRA/424 into Gold, Silver and Bronze (we actually have Sliver and Bronze, kinda, with our 9 lap rule) so the accomplished flyer/builder has somewhere to fly without investing the kind of money necessary for 428/422 or feel like he or she is beating up on beginners.
I could go on and on but somewhere along the line I have work to do. Maybe we should start a new thread and get additional input.
Barry
To improve the state of racing I believe we need to attack it on several levels.
1. Local – Every racer should belong to one or more clubs. Once a member he or she should promote racing constantly. Bring your stuff to show and tell. Get involved in the program part of the meetings; do paint demos, racing equipment installation, question and answer sessions on racing trim and setup. Attend every meeting and support all club activities racing or otherwise. Help out at non-racing events. In other words make yourself a valuable asset to the club and someone who is respected and listened to. Next get on the board. When racing was going best we had 4 racers on the Valley Flyer Board. Take an entry level APRA / Slo-Quicky to the field and sport fly it. Try to get informal racing started. Become a CD. Once the foundation is in place and you have enough racers to insure a decent turn out suggest that the club try a race. It’s been my experience that most clubs will support most any kind of event if enough of their members want it. One of the things holding new racing back is the complexity of the required equipment. I would suggest using a system with only pylons and lap counter stations. No cut or turn lights. Simply fly 10 laps and count the cuts at the end. 1 cut 1 point, 2 cuts 0 points. No 11th lap. If the club wants or the field dictates fly two pole. Keep it Simple.
2. Regional – Start a regional racing series like the old CCRA. Keep running tallies of points by class on one of the supporting club’s web sites. The points encourage racers to attend. Have year-end trophies for the top three or four places in each class. Promote the events. Call all the racers prior to each event and get them enthusiastic about coming. Try and get outside sponsorship in both merchandise and cash so the racers and clubs stand to make or win more. Clubs would more agreeable if they were guaranteed a $1,000.00 or $1,500.00 net return. Above all promote, promote, promote.
3. National – The national organization’s primary focus should be on local entry level racing. 428 and 422 will take care of itself. Resources should be allocated to the regions to establish, promote and help fund racing. Build a strong organization with constant dialogue not only between the officers of the organization but the organization and the racers. Benefits to racers should be increased; Web based event calendar’s with contacts maintained by district VP’s should be on line. Current race results and point tallies should be on line.
4. Expense – I believe the expense involved is manageable. It really is inexpensive, as compared to any other form of racing, to compete in APRA / 424. The increment of cost moving from APRA/424 to 428/422 is a big one. We have lost several 428 guys the last couple of years due directly to the cost. We tend to consider APRA/424 a “beginners” event and expect those who become proficient at to move up to 428. We also do not like seeing proficient 428 and 422 pilots dropping back into APRA/424 for any reason other than they just can’t handle the fast classes any more. So if you get to the point you think 428 / 422 is just not worth the expense there really is no place to race under our current system. I’m about to the point where I think we need to break APRA/424 into Gold, Silver and Bronze (we actually have Sliver and Bronze, kinda, with our 9 lap rule) so the accomplished flyer/builder has somewhere to fly without investing the kind of money necessary for 428/422 or feel like he or she is beating up on beginners.
I could go on and on but somewhere along the line I have work to do. Maybe we should start a new thread and get additional input.
Barry
10-06-2004, 05:08 PM
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RE: Whittier Race
It seems like another problem is the large number of people required to run a race if you run the full course. I suspect that a lot of clubs don't mind hosting the race, but their members don't want to have to run it.
Years ago, I was running races at the Pioneer Club in Santa Clara. I took in a lot of money and bought a lot of prizes - that I gave to the workers not the contestants. I had workers coming out of my arse to work the course, just because I gave away a couple of kits, Monokote, fuel, and glue to the workers at each race. However, the club leadership got a bit teed off with me, because at the end of the season they only made a few hundred dollars. But since the members of the club made off with the loot, everyone else was OK with it.
But it does seem that we could cut down the number of workers by at least four.
Four lap counters, four cut judges at pylon one, a starter, pylon 2 and 3 judge, score keeper, CD, and sheepherder to move the contestents. We could eliminate 4 people if we moved the finish line to pylon 1 and had them count laps as well. So a race would be just short of 10 1/2 laps.
Years ago, I was running races at the Pioneer Club in Santa Clara. I took in a lot of money and bought a lot of prizes - that I gave to the workers not the contestants. I had workers coming out of my arse to work the course, just because I gave away a couple of kits, Monokote, fuel, and glue to the workers at each race. However, the club leadership got a bit teed off with me, because at the end of the season they only made a few hundred dollars. But since the members of the club made off with the loot, everyone else was OK with it.
But it does seem that we could cut down the number of workers by at least four.
Four lap counters, four cut judges at pylon one, a starter, pylon 2 and 3 judge, score keeper, CD, and sheepherder to move the contestents. We could eliminate 4 people if we moved the finish line to pylon 1 and had them count laps as well. So a race would be just short of 10 1/2 laps.
10-06-2004, 05:16 PM
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RE: Whittier Race
I dont' think you need that many helpers, especially for 424 type racing. All you really need is 1 person on each pylon, and a starter which could be one of the racers. We've run races without timers, lights, and lap timers for the past 6-7 years.
The trick is to keep the race low key, and fun.
The trick is to keep the race low key, and fun.
10-06-2004, 05:25 PM
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RE: Whittier Race
It really sounds like the guys in Minnesota are on to something. I don't know how may on this forum have checked out your web site, but it must also help keep up the interest.
www.ncplracing.org
Keep it fun, and low key. That may be the answer.
www.ncplracing.org
Keep it fun, and low key. That may be the answer.
10-07-2004, 06:53 AM
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RE: Whittier Race
We did some different things this year, that really made things fun.
1. We added a "Masters" class to a couple of our races. To enter this elite class, you needed to have a medicare card. These masters raced in the normal matrix, but at the end of the race we compared their scores to come up with the masters champion. I think we had roughly 8 people that qualified, and you wouldn't have believed the trash talking by these guys all day. Even during the heats. It was hillarious.
2. We ran a couple of Calcuttas on the races. You could bet money on the racer you felt was going to win the race. The amount of money bet on each racer determined the payback. This was a lot of fun, and profittable to some
3. We ended our season with a championship race of the top 8 fliers to determine the years champion. We ran two 4 plane qualifying heats, and then a final. This put the top local fliers against each other and made for some great racing. I think the format will be changed slightly next year (Up to 16 fliers and possibly a double elimination), but was a lot of fun. Theres a nice write up on our site about the race that can be seen here: http://www.ncplracing.org/PDF/The%20...on%20Final.pdf
The website mentioned above is really a great site with lots of info about each racer, and a ton of pictures and all of the race results. Some of the stats go back more than 30 years.
Check it out
www.ncplracing.org
1. We added a "Masters" class to a couple of our races. To enter this elite class, you needed to have a medicare card. These masters raced in the normal matrix, but at the end of the race we compared their scores to come up with the masters champion. I think we had roughly 8 people that qualified, and you wouldn't have believed the trash talking by these guys all day. Even during the heats. It was hillarious.
2. We ran a couple of Calcuttas on the races. You could bet money on the racer you felt was going to win the race. The amount of money bet on each racer determined the payback. This was a lot of fun, and profittable to some
3. We ended our season with a championship race of the top 8 fliers to determine the years champion. We ran two 4 plane qualifying heats, and then a final. This put the top local fliers against each other and made for some great racing. I think the format will be changed slightly next year (Up to 16 fliers and possibly a double elimination), but was a lot of fun. Theres a nice write up on our site about the race that can be seen here: http://www.ncplracing.org/PDF/The%20...on%20Final.pdf
The website mentioned above is really a great site with lots of info about each racer, and a ton of pictures and all of the race results. Some of the stats go back more than 30 years.
Check it out
www.ncplracing.org
10-07-2004, 08:06 AM
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RE: Whittier Race
As long as we have hijacked this thread, I'd like to add that we're having a 428 this weekend in Elk River. The Weather here this year has been great. Seems when the hurricanes come by the dozen, we get great weather up here. Gonna be low 70's , no wind, no humidity. Most any old Nelson will spin with ease in this weather. Come one, come all.
And by the way, good luck in Kali-forina
And by the way, good luck in Kali-forina
10-07-2004, 08:30 AM
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RE: Whittier Race
I have a question..... This year all I have raced is 424 and am wondering why all the workers for a 428 race?? All the talk of cut lights and lap counters, is all that stuff needed or does the AMA say you have to have it? Just wondering. I too will be making my 428 debut this weekend (NCPL) with someone elses plane[X(] Little nervous about that but for the most part I can't wait.
10-07-2004, 09:32 AM
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RE: Whittier Race
Well, 428 fliers are somewhat prone to cutting pylons two and three, are always trying to set fast time, new records, trying to lap competitors, psyche their fellow racers, cut their airplanes into small pieces, arguing about every heat that they loose, whimpering, yelling, screaming, cajoling, bribing, spending vast sums of money for 50 cent trophies, reliving past contests where things go well, forgetting how bad when they don’t, traveling hours on end for eight minutes of flying, eating bad food, getting too little sleep, drinking too much, drinking too little, cussing, trash talking, bartering, using your fuel, your glue, your glowplugs, your glue, your shade, your chairs, your backup engine, plane, servo, battery, tools, etc., etc., and etc.
Then you realize, this is fun, these are your friends, let’s race!
Then you realize, this is fun, these are your friends, let’s race!
10-07-2004, 10:22 AM
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RE: Whittier Race
Something I've been thinking about recently is akin to Bob's suggestion of moving the finish line to the #1 pylon. I'd like to see a timing system whereby the official lap timer's clocks for each lane are started simultaneously by the starter. Every clock and timer for each heat would begin when the starter presses the 60 second clock. Then for your official time, you'd just need to subtract one minute. This assumes that the "go when ready" style of starting is eliminated. The workers at #1 could press one button that triggers the lane signal light and also keeps track of the time for each lap on each lane. We would have to fly eleven laps because you're getting one light before you complete the first lap but we all fly eleven anyway. Then if you cut #1, you don't get a light, the lap doesn't count, and your time for that particular lap is approximately double.
This would get rid of the need for four, perhaps five workers.
Ok guys, what are the holes in my logic in this scenario?
This would get rid of the need for four, perhaps five workers.
Ok guys, what are the holes in my logic in this scenario?
10-07-2004, 10:37 AM
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RE: Whittier Race
John,
Many places already have timers that start all four lanes at the same time. I know the Speedworld club in Phoenix has for well over 10 years. It's not tied into the 60 second clock, but the head guy in the timers cage starts it. I don't think it's a good idea to have it start automatically at the end of 60 seconds, because if the starter has to hold off waving the flag for a couple seconds to make sure everybody's absolutely ready (for safety reasons, like if a caller doesn't realize his pilot's not looking yet), it would penalize everybody's time.
GS
Many places already have timers that start all four lanes at the same time. I know the Speedworld club in Phoenix has for well over 10 years. It's not tied into the 60 second clock, but the head guy in the timers cage starts it. I don't think it's a good idea to have it start automatically at the end of 60 seconds, because if the starter has to hold off waving the flag for a couple seconds to make sure everybody's absolutely ready (for safety reasons, like if a caller doesn't realize his pilot's not looking yet), it would penalize everybody's time.
GS
