SDsniper

I am probably opening one of the biggest cans of worms I can find in here!

I hope that at some time you wonderful fellows take a read back at your posts and really look at the way you sound to the BEGINNER in 424 428 Q40 and so on.

All you guys do is BASH the kits that are seen by the NEWBIE. What else are we supposed to buy? You fellows keep your racing secrets all to yourselves them beat up on the poor new guy that shows up with say a ARF Predator or a GP Viper at the field.

Hell I never heard of a NELSON engine till 2 weeks ago.. But what NOVICE racer in his right mind is going to slap a 370+ dollar motor on a plane that he has never flown anything similar too???

You guys seem to forget that AMA 424 is a SPORT class and designed for the NEWBIE and BEGINNER racer. If you guys want to race composites MOVE UP too 428. And let the guy that is new to the sport run in the SPORT class..

Most of us NEW people find that the Pylon crowd is very UN User friendly.... Mostly SNOBS... We all have the Desire to learn and we want to go fast and we want to race hard but WE ALL must stay with in our means.

I personally am not going to Lay out 1000+ too find out that I dont care for pylon racing. Instead of BASHING our ARF's Why dont some of you old vultures out there show us new people how to make what we have perform better, Fly faster, and turn harder so we can have some fun too???

I also have an Illegal .40 class Norvel on my plane. It has more get up and go than the TT 40 pro and is 4oz lighter. yes it was more money but I dont plan on staying a beginner. Also there is NO Racing near me so I have to settle for flying solo. Stop BASHING are you guys so Vain that you think the manufacturers dont listen in stead of getting on here and beating up on the kits call the manufacturers and tell them how to improve the kits...

Mike

johnnychimpo

Don't sugar coat it Mike, tell us how you really feel?

But on a serious note, I'm not a beginner but i have not raced in almost 10 yrs. My first new race will be 424 in Lucasville Ohio and I live all the way in Virginia. I will have 2 vipers ready for the 424 class and i would be more than happy to help you out any way possible with what i know or could direct you some where that you will get the right answers.

Your drive from where you live may be closer than mine. Check it out if you can.http://www.capsracing.org/index.html

Ed Smith

Mike,

I read most of the racing related posts on various Forums. That does not mean I remember all of them. I do not recall your name in any specific racing related question. Maybe I missed that one. One thing you must realise is that racing requires, amongst other things, a lot of effort. The have been numerous posts on this Forum regarding improvements to ARF racers. Do a search. Or is that too much effort? The RCPRO Forum has a number of construction articles written for the sole purpose of helping others. They might not address your specific need but they were written in response to requests.

Those of us that race usually hold full time jobs, we have to, to support the habit. We also have to maintain the fleet. Somewhere in the mix there are usually family obligations. This does not leave a lot of time for the donning of journalists hats and repeatedly answering the same questions on Forums. Several times I have offered help to an apparent newcomer at a race. I have got an answer such as "What, do you think I am an idiot" It does not take too many of those before I say "O.K. Fella's, you are on your own.

You have not been paying attention. On this very Forum are details of the CAPS Indy Shootout on the 21/22 of MAY. C.D. Mike DeNeve has offered the help of an experienced racer to any newcomer that asks for it. The help would be for the weekend and will consist of setting up the airplane, setting the engine and racing skills. There is a race at Lucasville, Ohio, next weekend. I will be there. Pit with us and I will offer all the help I can. Lucasville is about an hour south of Columbus. From your location I am guessing you are about a half hour or so north east of Detroit, correct? I have a three hour journey before I get to the Detroit border crossing. I do not want to hear that Lucasville is too far. Do you want to race or not??

So there you have it. In the space of three weeks you could get all of the help from experienced racers that you say is lacking. I challenge you to make the effort and show up at the races and get unqualified help from experienced racers. If you cannot be bothered to make the effort then stop whining!!

Ed S

SDsniper

Ed,

To be honest yes I have seen one thread in my searching regarding the tails on the Lanier Predator and another on the covering after the fact of being given the ARF as a gift..

YOU are 100% right about having a job to support this habit but in all fairness keep in mind that while you are at home thinking about what the optimum tail incidences may be on your next plane, Im out there defending your right to do that...

Please be very careful where you throw the job comments I have fought for this country as my !QUOT!Job!QUOT! as you put it.. for the last 11 years...

I would love to be able to get to the Lucasville show and be able to take you up on your offer. The problem is MY JOB Im military and I have to transfer to New York on the 30 of the month. Then I will have to spend the week of may 9th through the 13th in Virginia for more training. then its back to New York and hopefully close on my new house....

Yes I read the post on the CAPS race.. The Object is to show up to race not rebuild my plane on site... I have built planes for almost 10 years however I have always found that there are very few that fly how the MFG. claims they fly..

And yes in a number of areas these kits could be improved. The covering on my predator is the worst stuff I have ever messed with.. I wanted to strip the whole thing and start over.... BUT I did write a rather nasty letter to Lanier about that.

We pay to much in this hobby to get second rate product....

Ed,

Send a PM to me.. Where in relation to Buffalo NY are you. I would love to get some one on one time with a racer without the pressure of a race setting. I dont care If I have to try and take leave to get some help..


Scott,

PM Me as well I will be in Yorktown VA the week of may 9th thru 13th if you are close to this area maybe I could get some face time with you too... Anything would help at this point...

One last thing, What is the deal with the TT pro 40??? why is it the only allowed engine in 424??? The norvel 40 is still under the 120$ limit the AMA sets.


I,m not here looking for fights.. I want to get help so the plane I have can perform as well as it can. Im sure this predator can be fine tuned to fly real well and be competitive

Mike

diggs_74

Mike,

I was a newbie last year and raced with the NCPL(www.ncplracing.org) and I really can't relate to the statements you've made regarding the snobby nature of the racing community..

However, I happen to know that there are MANY posts related to the quickie ARF's that are available on this and many other racing forums. I know it seems like a daunting task to sift thru the BS and back and forth disagreements that can take place sometimes(ok, most of the time)... I think that if you go back thru some those posts you will find a lot of useful information..

I personnally have had a great experience in the pylon community so far and can't see that changing anytime soon (even when having discussions with such tactful guys as ol' Ed ) Your best bet is to get to some races and talk to the contest director, tell him you're a newbie and could use a hand getting started... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the amount of help you will receive if you're open to the info the vetrans give you.....

Trust me, you won't be able to stop once you start

bl10

Sniper
I take exception to your “un-friendly� comment. 1st off this is not a team sport. It requires extraordinary individual effort to even be moderately successful. If you want to race get a copy of the rules, build a plane that meets the rules and go race. If you can find racers in your area I’m sure they will be more than glad to help but to be really honest most “newbies� don’t want to go to the trouble to field competitive equipment or learn to fly competitively. On the west coast about 1 out of 5 make it to their 2nd race. There is a long, slow, painful learning curve in pylon racing. While the ARF’s give you a leg up in building time in my opinion they are not competitive as manufactured except against another ARF. Last year we had a good pilot who had never raced pylon decide he wanted to. He bought a Predator and new TT pro 40. He chose to ignore our advice to beef up the firewall, wing mount, use a tetra or Jett tank and various other things. He also chose to ignore the break in advice provided on the NMPRA web site. So guess what happened. The engine was 1500 to 2000 down from the fast guys. He goes out for his first heat is lapped twice and says everyone is cheating. He goes out for his second heat and goes dead stick on launch makes a hard landing and the firewall falls out. He’s pissed and we are all jerks and cheaters. As far as I am concerned if you are a racer you will put in the effort as a matter of course and eventually become successful. This is the most difficult, challenging and personally rewarding sport I’ve ever been in. Yes its hard, yes it can be expensive (I’ve lost 4 composite planes so far this year) and yes at times it seems like your beating your head against a wall. But stick it out and it just doesn’t get any better.

This may sound harsh or snobbish but in the end it’s up to the individual to put in the effort. Pylon racing is no different than any other form of racing. The guys who work at it do well and last those who don’t don’t. It really doesn’t make any difference what “we� do or say, it’s up to you to come out and beat our pants off.


Barry

johnnychimpo

Mike check your pms

P. Johnson

My Feedback: (1)

Mike,
I think what you were reffering to was a comment in another thread that read something to the effect that they wouldn't fly a predator or viper on a bet . ( not quoted correctly). I started racing back in the early 80's when people were all building there own planes and and most of them looked the same( scat cats, cheeta's etc.) I have laid out of racing for about 8 years but am going to get back into it and am going to fly 424 with my own design ( Kinda).

As far as engines go, The way I read the rules, as long as it will NOT exceed 16000RPM with a 9x6APC prop...then it should be a legal engine.

Do me a favor, Don't read more into the forum threads than what is there, most of us are good guys that will be MORE than happy to share what info you would like to get, all you have to do is ask!

We aren't that hard to get along with, really...I mean, when we go out to fly, thats what we do, we dont complain about the noise and how fast things are while we sit in our lawn chairs like hanger kings and wish we could fly!

daven

My Feedback: (1)

In about 5 minutes I found the following helpfull threads. The infos here, you just gotta sift through it. I think there are plenty of people willing to help, you just gotta ask.

Speed Secrets:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Spee...2630667/tm.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Spee...2630650/tm.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Spee...2630660/tm.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Spee...2630675/tm.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Spee...2630693/tm.htm

Installing a V-Tail on a predator:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Pred...2370176/tm.htm

Viper Tail Modification:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Vipe...1213413/tm.htm

Seeker Kit build thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Seek...2383593/tm.htm

Viper thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Vipe...1120726/tm.htm

Skinned Aileron and tail threads:

www.nmpra.org (Main page, just scroll down a little bit.

Clark L

When I started racing just under 3 years ago I learned tons of stuff from this (and other) discussion forums. While these forums certainly helped and continue to help me improve there's no substitute for race day experience. Most of what I've learned has come from being surrounded by, pitting next to, and racing against some of the top racers in the country. There really aren't any secrects these guys aren't willing to share, all you have to do is ask. I don't know about these "snobs" in which you refer. I sure haven't met any. These folks have been nothing but helpful. Find a race, get out there and don't be afraid to ask questions. You'll discover that our rather small racing community contains the most friendly, down to earth people you'll ever find in this hobby.

Clark

garys

Clark,
You're starting to go too fast. You need to forget everything you've learned
GS

djlyon

Ya but we cheated Clark. We practiced, preped and helped each other when we got started. And Gary, the closely guarded secret is that 2 half shotguns are faster than one whole shotgun.

Denis

Don't be afraid to race Vipers and Predators. With preparation and practice, lots of practice, they will stay in the mix in 424.

SDsniper

Thank You,

I now have got a lot of help.. I plan to avoid the guys that gave me all the grief locally.

I would Like to Thank Scott Roney and Ed Smith In particular for taking the time to help out. I have plans set to meet Scott in VA in a couple weeks. And I will try and catch Ed at Lucasville this weekend.

Ed I want the scoop on your wings.

None of my local racers would help me out...

By the way has anyone found the wing incidence off from the centerline on these planes??
I checked mine and it needs the trailing edge shimmed up anyone find the same?

diggs_74

Shimming the TE/LE to get to zero isn't uncommon in my experience anyway... Set everything(firewall, wing, tail) at zero. Don't forget to pot the wing to the fuse.. That will prevent any air from entering the inside of the fuse and also keep the wing in the same position when you take it off and on...

DHG

My Feedback: (7)

Mike,

A slight amount of positive incidence in the wing (1/2 degree or less) isn't necessarily bad. You can trim it out with slight down-elevator trim, which gives the tailplane a little bit of camber ... which is good, for reasons Ed will be happy to explain.

But make sure it's close to zero, and do "pot in" the wing saddle with epoxy and a stiff mixture of microballoons or cornstarch. On some of the ARFs, the fuselage sides are thin balsa. If so, I'd recommend putting a secondary liner of light 1/8" balsa sheet on the inside of the saddle, then "pot in" with your epoxy mix over that. The extra width will spread the load and improve the match between the wing and fuse.

Duane Gall
RCPRO

daven

My Feedback: (1)

There is also a nice wing potting thread somewhere in here.

Found it, took only a couple minutes.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_40.../tm.htm#402020

If you have a pylon question, use the Search function of RCU and click only the Pylon Universe forums. It wasn't too long ago that I was the New Guy, and I still ask a ton of questions. Lots of helpful people on here to help.

SDsniper

DHG,

The sides of my fuse look to be doubled up all ready. The edges still flex fairly easily... Will potting help to stiffen this up?

Also where do you guys get your wing cores and such. I hate to admit this but now that I see and have repaired alot of the issues with this ARF. I think building one right would be the easier route to go...

I have NO experiance cutting foam.. Who do I need to get a hold of to get a couple cores???

daven

My Feedback: (1)

I am not aware of any foam cutting people, but I know Bill Vargas will sell a Q500 wing Sheeted with carbon fiber under the skin for about $50 shipped. He has two versions, one with a 10" chord for his Racer 2's and one with a 9 3/4" chord for my Seekers.

A better airfoil than is used on the Predator or Viper.

daven

My Feedback: (1)

Dan Kane forwarded this message to me and asked me to post:



Just to be clear, as of Jan 1st 2005 there is only one engine approved for AMA 424. It is the TT 40 Pro. The reason for this has been discussed many times. Here is a quick summary. The largest group of pilots flying beginner pylon is the APRA group on the West coast. Jim Allen, and many others have devoted way too many hours in evaluating motors for their class. The engine of choice for most was the TT 40 Pro. The NEPRO group also settled on one motor and it was the TT 40 Pro. The Illinois/Wisconsin group settled on ONE motor and it was the TT 40 PRO. Therefore as the proposer of the current rule, I felt that the TT 40 PRO would be the best possible starting point for AMA 424. The rule is written in such away that other engines may be added to the approved list, but currently the TT 40 Pro is the only engine on the list. The RPM thing was removed from the rule.

Having said all of that. AT a local event you must find out from the CD what special rules they will be using. Some may allow different engines (eg. .46's, or older models). I know that the CAPS organization will deviate from the current rule and allow different engines. Therefore it is up to the competitors and CD's to provide and receive the proper information concerning the engine that can be used for a certain contest.


Dan

DHG

My Feedback: (7)

Mike,

If the fuselage sides are 3/16" to 1/4" thick, that should be fine. The epoxy will stiffen it up a lot. The stiffer the better.

Duane Gall
RCPRO

Ed Smith

Mike,

I have two sets of wing cores. I will take them to Lucasville. They are freebies. They are yours provided you build an airplane for them. As you can see nothing is easy with me. I expect to see effort from everybody!!


Ed S

SDsniper

Ed,

Good deal, now I can find out how to put these things together. I wont be able to compete but I will be there. I just hope it dont rain. Im sneaking to the race to begin with. I should technialy be driving to New York but its just a small detour..


Mike

johnnychimpo

30% on saturday and 20% on sunday. Friday looks terrible at 80%.