PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I am posting the following email I sent Lanier. It fully explains the situation. Hopefully they will remedy this. I will keep everyone posted.

Dear Lanier RC,

I am including three digital photos of my Predator after the wing departed the aircraft in flight. I purchased this aircraft two weeks ago and flew it twice last Tuesday with the engine running rich for break in. This morning I tuned the Thunder Tiger Pro 40 for peak performance and began the first flight of the day which was the third flight on the aircraft.

On the second lap while in front of me and half way between the turns, the wing departed the aircraft and the fuselage became a missile. I brought the throttle to idle and the fuselage flew a ballistic path away from the flight line and landed in very soft dirt/mud. Luckily the new engine does not seem to have suffered any damage. My Futaba throttle servo was stripped and the 127DF receiver which was three weeks old was destroyed.

After retrieving the wing I was disgusted to discover that the wing mounting plates had separated from the fuselage. The wing is still in good condition and the plates are firmly attached to the wing as evidenced in the photos. It appears that your manufacturing facility is using hot glue to attach these plates. For proof I will be glad to provide these plates for your inspection. I include this quote from your website We have done our part to insure the airworthiness of our aircraft, please do yours. It appears to me that there is a production flaw in the aircraft which could be lethal at the speeds that this aircraft travels.

I ask that you review your method of attaching these plates with your engineers and consider using a more appropriate adhesive. I also ask that you provide me with a replacement kit. If the wing attach points are not strengthened on this kit I will personally add doublers with a more appropriate adhesive.

djlyon

Yup we've had a couple of them fail like that at our field. Before I ever flew mine I fixed it. I found I could pull the wing mounting blocks loose with my little pinky and about 3 lbs of pressure. I NEVER NEVER fly any kind of ARF without first finding the weak spots and making the necessary corrections. Maybe Lanier thinks that racing their race planes around pylons is abusive flying.

Denis

PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I was worried about the bolts being tapped into the wood without blind nuts. I reviewed the instructions and decided that I would build it as instructed. Low and behold the bolts were not the problem. The problem was the actual attach points! I am shocked when I look at the dribble of hot glue that was around the EXTERIOR of these wood plates. There appears to be a few tack spots of CA on the plates. I suspect that the plates are tacked on with CA and then hot glue is run around the edges in a fillet pattern. Something as important structurally as these plates should be glued at the end grain with 30 minute epoxy or an industrial quick set of equivalent strength. I was planning to enter my first race at Hodges the second weekend in August but now I'm out of commission.

[email protected]

It always frightens me when I see these things, and especially beyond our/ your control! I precheck everything and assume nothing when it comes to wing mountings. i always redo strengthening with carbon/ glass fillets as required. I never have owned a preditor but i guess all these ARF's can have similar problems. Taping/ threading the wing mounts ditrectly into wood isn't a problem as long as you cyano the threads- I tap the wood then cyano using thin, then retap and have never had a problem. ........i do use nylon bolts/ screws revor H.[>:]

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

My PREDATOR failed in many other ways, but I have managed to keep the wing. I glued in blocks beneath the factory blocks just to make sure. Yep, it is some kind of ratty hot glue, what a joke. Just think of all the guys who have ever, and who will continue to trust their lives to competing with this SUB-STANDARD PIECE OF CRAP!!

P. Johnson

My Feedback: (1)

Reading this article brings back a question I raised years ago when *Arc's* first hit the seen and I saw all the modifications people had to do in order to make it race worthy....If you have to go to all of the trouble to reinforce here, strengthen there ,and straighten what strange twist might be in some part of the structure, wouldn't it be easier and more gratifying just to buy a kit and build it the way that it is intended to be built? I mean,,,,it's got to take just as long to fix one as it does to build it correctly!
I just wondered

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Your not too far off with your time estimate. In a near perfect world, the authorities having juridiction [local pylon clubs] would see to it that these ARFs that are known to fly apart on their own are either black listed, or have the prescribed mods done to them before being allowed to compete. The pressure to encourage new comers to race is probably too much to send a guy away because he didn't reenforce his ARF PREDATOR. Had I known what was in store for me, I would have built the kit. I had my engine almost fly off in the middle of a heat.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Everyone is pretty quick to post a flame about Lanier, anyone read the myriads of posts about pinning the wing hold downs and firewall? It probably takes all of ten minutes to do and has been discussed in many threads.

Sure there are several short comings to this ARF and if you want to build from a kit more power to you but for the ones who just want to fly it has brought a LOT of new people to racing that might not have attempted it if they had to build. I built a Great Planes Extra and had to pin the firewall, I havn't read anyone complaining about that model.

You can buy these things for $110 and compete in APRA with some minor mods, you guys should kiss Bubba's butt for selling them.

P. Johnson

My Feedback: (1)

Please be assured,,I in NO WAY was flaming on anyone about what they have bought or flown, I was merely stating that I have read alot of post about midifying different "ARF" airplanes to get them where you want inorder to fly as well as they can. I build most of my woody's from scratch, and it takes longer than an arf or a kit. BUT when I am done, i have a safe structure that I don't have to worry about coming apart. Personally i don't have any problem with anyone flying anything that meets the rules, and I know that the ARF has made a lot of people give racing a try, that never would have taken the time to build one, SOOO I am going to thank the manufactures who have brought ARF's to the stage, just make sure you build them to race, not to fall apart.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

What other brand of ARF QUICKEES come hot glued together? I would like to know in advance so I don't get suckered again. I don't care what price the PREDATORS are going for, people take it in good faith that when you buy a plane that is sold for racing, that it is ready to go. The majority of the modeling world doesn't subscribe to this forum to find out in advance where all the toothpicks and extra blocks of wood should go, nor should they be expected to.. For every PREDATOR FALLS APART thread we see here at RCU, how many others do you suppose have happened, will happen and are happening right now, that don't get reported? The wormiest thing about that hot glue, is what ever wood it has come in contact with gets contaminated by it, and it repels attempts to glue up next to it or over it.

PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I have to agree with combatpigg. This was my first attempt at fielding a racer and it ended in premature failure. No where in the instructions did it state that I should seek third party guidance on reinforcing the aircraft. No one in my club races so I was hoping to intrest a new group of guys into joining the sport. I spoke with some guys in Andersonville, GA which is the closest organized race. They said that the covering on the Predator was poor but never said that the structure was inferior. Upon inspection I noticed that the lap joint on the covering was at the leading edge of the wing. I always build mine with the lap joint at the trailing edge so I added 1/2" wide tape to all the leading edges to keep the covering from peeling back. I converted the clevises to heavy duty Dubro and I used Z bends at the servos instead of the supplied clips. In short I tried to beef up the aircraft but I did not pin the firewall or reglue the wing attach fittings. Had I been told or had the instructions mentioned it I would have gladly taken the extra hour of construction time to perform those mods. I have receieved Great Planes ARFs with service bulletins laid in the top of the box. If Lanier can not change their manufacturing process they should at least include a service bulletin asking you to strengthen these areas.

burgster

My Feedback: (2)

I had a wing come off in the same manner that you guys spoke of, but I only has a .28 on the front, what a joke. That guy said that we should kiss Bubby's butt, why???? because he puts out a sub-standard arf built in a sweat shop! Lanier puts out great kits, but I have never had much luck with any of there arfs. You get suckered in by the price and "time savings", but in the end you are no further ahead.!

DHG

My Feedback: (7)

An ARF is a set of part templates temporarily arranged into a 3-dimensional assembly guide.

Professor Oldschool

Tony Pacini

Even if they'd used epoxy to fasten the firewall/gear block/wing plates they would have come loose eventually. Those of us who used to "build" wood quickie fuses would glue and pin the critical areas then reinforce with triangle stock or a chopped glass/epoxy fillet. That's a lot of stress for such a small gluing surface.

Those of us who have had that stuff come apart already know better. The shame of it all is that this kit is marketed for the beginner who would have know way of knowing these tricks of the trade. All of the veteran racers that I know who built these ARFs went ahead and made the mods during the initial build because they expected them to fail. That part of the fuse right in front of the V-tail is a soft spot, too (I've crunched them during launch).

The ARFs aren't bad, they just need a little coaxing to suit the purpose. The Predator has been a boon to sport-level quickie racing and I wish it had come along sooner.

PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

Lanier is being responsive to my warranty claim. Looks like they are going to replace my fuselage. The only step left is shipping them my damaged fuselage. By the way, their email insinuated that the Predator is no longer in production. Has anyone else heard this bit of info. Maybe they are tired of dealing with this particular model.

s. wallace

My Feedback: (24)

I am waiting to see how they respond to my warranty claim, wing as received was so badly warped
I couldn't use it. The entire LH side of the wing from the aileron out has a 3/16" built in twist. Would have been a nightmare to trim out.

It was my own fault for totalling my Dominator, I thought this would get me back into our club racing series for this year & I could build a couple new kits over the winter.

My luck they were closed for vacation, and in response to my claim which included detailed photos they ask me to send back the wing, or they wanted me to pay for a new one. So, I'm down 3 weeks as is and we'll see how long it takes for a replacement. At least I have had time to do all the "mods" to hopefully keep it in one piece for a few more races.

Yes, I could have cut into the wing and repaired it...but why should I on a brand new purchase!

I will say I have had more fun in a few races than years of Pattern flying, and will build some new
models for both our club series and 424 next year.

SCPYLONRACER

Hi Portcityflyer,
I hope you can get your Predator back together for the August 13th race at Hodges. This should be a great race with several new racers from all over the South East. I have a Predator that I have flown at the Hodges races a few times with good results. I did reinforce the wing hold down mounts, firewall area inside the fuse and the area of the fuse just in front of the V-tail.

I will be at the Hodges race if you have questions, need any help setting up the airplane or need a caller.

Bill Johanson

PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks SCPYLONRACER. I will try to make it, even if I don't have an airplane with me. I am eager to see a race.

s. wallace

My Feedback: (24)

For what it's worth, I received a reply from Lanier (I had to send back a very badly warped Predator wing).
They indicate that the model is discontinued and have very little spare parts so are shipping me a blue
wing to go with my yellow kit...oh well.

No matter, in the 5 weeks I have frogged around with them I have built & tested a Viper and am good to
go for the remaining 4 races in our local series.
I am also hooked on pylon and this winter will NOT be building a new pattern model but instead
have ordered a Racer ll from Bill Vargas & will build a couple of those instead. Will fit one with a
TT 40 for NEPRPO and one with the OS we use.

PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I shipped my fuselage out Monday so maybe I will get a replacement in this week.

PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

Received my fuselage under warranty today. They sent a yellow fuselage to go with my blue wing. Looks like a cub scout sponsored racer! Interesting in that the wing attach points are beefed up considerably. There are balsa sadles on the top and bottom of the ply attach points. I am having to redrill the wing bolt holes and install blind nuts as the exising holes do not line up with my wing holes. I believe the blind nuts will make me feel better anyway. I never liked the idea of tapping that lite ply. I am going to pin the firewall like you guys suggested. Will the Great Planes Viper firewall mount work with this airplane? The only reason I can thing that it would not is if the firewall is smaller on the Predator. I am also hoping the Viper fuel tank will work as the various tanks that are offered by Tower have the wrong dimensions. The Viper relacement tank seems to have the right measurements.

splatt

sounds like you have a plan, Blinds nuts with a viper mount will fine. And your tank design seems cool, it should work too.

If you can insert the tank from the rear, consider glueing the top ply down rather than screwing it on. The front of all top line quickies are this way. With a firm box up from you are holding the the engine tight as can be. translates into a few more RPM going forward rarther than rattling around.

I always go aroung with some CA and touch up all the vital joints, good luck

PortCityFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I finished the replacement Predator today. I pinned the firewall with dowels. Added gorilla glue around all of the joints I could get to and especially to the wing attach fittings. I used heavy duty clevises throughout. My previous Predator balanced too far aft so with this one I installed the receiver behind the servos. This setup made the aircraft much easier to balance. The viper engine mount worked wonderfully. What a neat installation that makes! I screwed the fuel tank hatch down instead of glueing it. In the process I drilled into the tank. I took an old tank and cut a strip of plastic out of it. I melted this strip with my soldering gun and "soldered" the hole up with the liquid plastic. Seems to have worked pretty good as I presurized the tank and witnessed no leaks.

I test flew the bird at dusk and man does it scream! I ran a complete tank through it and did not hold back. This one seems to be destined to hold together. Hopefully I am set up to do a little racing now!

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Get yourself a Tetra tank if you are gonna race it.

predator500

My Feedback: (1)

I have a Predator500 aswell (bet my username diesnt give that away) and have had the same problem with my first racer. The second racer I bought came with a triangular stock piece of balsa and a extra piece of paper stating that there have been failures in the wing blocks and that the triangular stock should be glued underneath. Now, I took out the wing mounting blocks buy heating the glue with my heat gun, and then put in blind nuts. Although Lainer tryed to fix this problem, they took the lazy way out. Personially, I wish they would make these racers a little better so we dont all have to go and buy the Dominator and make sure everything is built solid ourselfs.


Colin C