skull1971

Read on another site that the rules for 428 might be changing and the engines we now have will not be allowed to run. What's the full story? I hope that the Jett we just bought last week will be able to compete in '08. I also saw where 422 is behind the 8-ball too.


P.S. would an admin. from the NMPRA site p.m. me.

garys

Here's a link to the new rules proposals for pylon. The AMA contest board rep for your district is Mike Helsel, contact him if you have any questions or concerns.

The proposals aimed at slowing down 428 are: RCR-09-3, RCR-09-6, RCR-09-7. There are others for 422, but you seem more concerned about 428 so I'm just listing their proposal #'s.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/.../rcracing.aspx

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Slow down pylon. This has been the cry for the last 40 years. Seriously, 40 years ago when Formula One was just getting started people were calling out for it to be slowed down. Back when a great time was around 2 minutes, it was deemed just too fast. They were not even as fast as a TT40 powered Skyraider, which is barely faster than some trainers.

The great ideas of the past were to change the engines (imagine a 4 1/2 to 5 lb airplane with a .19), drag 100 foot long streamers, or use 11-4 props. Thankfully, those ideas were shot down and the sport evolved.

We have slow events, we don't need more.

What we do need is stability in engines, instead of unfettered development.

skull1971

I kinda figured that 422 would be best on another thread, but we can talk about it here.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

If you are going to have a spec class there should be spec engines. If you have an open class then unfetterd is what you should be able to do. I would be rather put out to buy and engine (an expensive one at that) only to have a rule change during the off season prohibiting mine and allowing someone elses.

Bill Vargas

My Feedback: (5)

Yes by all means please read that other forums slow down for 428 and check out the rule proposals,,, it won t take much to understand just exactly what is trying to be done concerning engines.

its alot of BS thats for sure!


BV

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Ok, say last year you decided that the Jett engine might be slightly faster and no slower than the Nelson ss engine. So you buy that engine. A month or two later the long stoke Nelson comes out in response, and it's now the engine to have, so the Jett is out. No sooner do you get the new Nelson broke in, when the Profi come out making the Nelson yesterday's news. Meanwhile Jett is in development, as is Nelson.

Every time people's engines are no longer competitive, they have to decide to invest another grand or drop out.

What I am saying is that what is needed is a spec engine. Doesn't matter who makes it, but designed with universal parts, Jett parts or Nelson parts, or anyone else that want to make racing engines. This would require the bore and stoke to be set, the sleeve thickness set, rod length, bearing size and location, cranks, etc. You should be able to take two different makers engines apart and swap parts back and forth if it is a spec engine.

garys

I don't think spec engines is the way to go. Just because we're currently going through a transition with new engines, we've been through it before. It's really no different than what was going on in the mid 90's with Nelson, Jett, and Edmunds. It's really not any different than if somebody came out with a new airplane that was 2 seconds faster, although I suppose that's the next item that can become "spec".

Actually, if you really look at it, even with the changes during the last year, pylon engines are more stable than many other events. Take a look at the engine development that goes on in pattern between the different YS, OS, and electric power systems.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

428 airframes are spec. I read where Cady thinks 145 is the target speed. That nobody went fast before APC props. No wonder he was so easy to beat back then.

s-10promod

Trying to slow any class of racing does nothing to help the class or the sport, All it does is force more money to be spent, and most of the time causes people to quit and find something else to spend their money and time on. This is NOT the way to attract more people to a sport.

garys

Bob, by your definition of a "spec" engine, the airframes are not spec. They share some similar dimensions, but the parts are not interchangable. But you are correct in that we were going over 145 before the APC props came out....maybe not quite as fast as now, but we were closer to the current speeds than 145.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Interchangeable parts really isn't that practical or realistic between brands.

rmenke

My Feedback: (13)

GOD SAVE US FROM THE ATTORNEY'S:

I think that was a quote from about 2,000 years ago that is currently still true. A major part of "going too fast" is concern in risk of injury to all attending a race, and its a valid one to a point. NASCAR and Foumula 1 have had spec rules for years, the only thing thay have been able to acomplish in reality is that the winning car is the one the rules have been pushed to the limits with success. Our club has a speck class (T-34) and Open class in a effort to level the playing field. Fact is that the same two guys who dominated 6 years ago when we again started, are still on top of the heap. Our open speeds have gone from around 120 to close to 200 in one case, all by the rules. These two will eventially be beaten, by mother nature in death or blindness, not by rules. Yes, we all can reduce risk, don't take baths, don't drive cars ect. How are you going to remove the best pilot, best tuner, best builder? Sorry, there will always be a Senna, Shoemaker, Gordon, Petty, Earnhart, Vicman, (under duress) thank God.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Roger, you forgot to add Vicman to your list

You bring up full scale car racing. Strangely one of the ways they slow them down is to make them unstable by limiting tire size and airflow devices. Yes there are restrictor plates too.

In our 1/2a racing scene out here we have two classes, .049 reedie and .074 unlimited. The neat part is those are the only rules for each class. Pretty simple.

If guys are going to go 2bills they are going to spend money no matter what to be fast, they also aren't in RCU griping about new stuff being available. Likely they are hoping to keep it secret till everyone else wonders how they are able to go so much faster. The guy looking for every edge will always find a new way to push whatever rules are there. When racing hits a certain level all bets are off on what is legal with all the sub classes being "spec". 428 seems to be a spec threshold class where guys can have some rules and still be close to no rules speed. MHOP.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Really? Nelson made piston/sleeve assemblies and heads for ST X-40's for many years before he came out with his own F1 engine. His first engine used OS back-ends during development, while maintaining the same bore and stroke as the X-40. For his engine, he did use a thicker sleeve wall. I also bought X-40 parts from other engine guys as well, like Glen Dye and a couple in Texas.
I've been told that there were also some people that mixed P/S sets between Jetts and Nelsons, with no change in performance.

[email protected]

Yes, have given a well used JETT engine to a fellow aeromodeller here some years ago and last I saw of it the piston/ sleeve was running very well inside a nelson case- he very humourously called the engine a JETTSON. How well did it run- well he told me his racetimes were no slower! regards trevor Henderson New Zealand

rmenke

My Feedback: (13)

VM:

Ok, added you to the hasbeens and wantabees. I think the .049 and .074 would be a geat change. Don't know anyone who knows how to grind on these little things, but someone here would experiment until thay got another 1,000r's. Little guys may move the advantage from the very old experienced, and tretcherous to newer young eyes. Ya can't fly um if you can't see um. But, nothing in the rules excluded running 2 or 3 motors?

HIGHPLANES, Thats not the story Cady tells. Something about you not being able to even get it off the ground without crashing. (I guess that's what he means by you not being able to get it up anymore) The truth must lay somewhere in between the stories? ENJOY Bro #119

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Very interesting thread. I am fascinated with the evolution\history of our events. I always wonder what the true motivation is with the authors of some of these rules.
After the creation of QM 40 and the elimination of Formula 1, where are we now? Basically the same thing but easier to be involve in other than the price.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

The back story is often more interesting than the public one Rich. I think half the rule proposals are made by people with an axe to grind. I know a number were made for me (actually against some of my technology), and a few I even had a hand in shaping during the big re-write around 1999-2000.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

HP, matched assemblies and a blanket statement of interchangeable are two diffrent birds. Will it work...sometimes yes, completely interchangeable...I stand my ground.

Dang Roger, that was harsh coming from a guy who never shows up at Rabbit.
I can prove my fast 1/2a prowess with metal and witnesses in these forums, instead of just saying I am the fastest old guy in the history of old guys.
Who knows after our local race in a few weeks you may even call me for speed tips.[8D]

HP, I always like your posts and have for some time, not lookin for trouble.

skull1971

The current rules for Pylon say's 2007-2008, so the 2008 season will use the current rules? A change of the rules, if any, will come in 2009, right????

IMHO, the powers that be need to leave 428 powerplants, and 422 alone. It's racing, it costs money, and lots of it. DUH!!

Ya'll really want to change something, change the plane, YES we have engines that cost $400.00 or more, but we also have 428 planes that cost even more that that! We should look at using a cheaper airplane(s). A Viper won fast time this year here in Houston, so the $120.00 plane can go real fast. I'm not saying that we should all suck up to Great Planes, and Lanier,( now part of GP) but change the rule to no composite fuse aircraft.

garys

Part of the reason the Viper did so well in Houston is that the top guys fly them at their local races. What time would that same pilot do if he was flying a Vortex or NemeQ?

The problem with no composite airplanes is that they'll still be expensive. People paid $400+ in the early to mid 1990's for ARF Revolutions from Mike DelPonte in AZ because they were one of the fastest airplanes. If somebody has a custom built wood airplane that wins a lot of races, people will pay big bucks for it and wait as long as it takes. A good foam/wood/monokote wing takes just as long to produce as a composite wing. They have essentially the same amount of carbon, and the fiberglass cloth in a composite wing isn't expensive. They won't be any cheaper than composite.

Actually, custom built monokote airplanes would be more expensive in the long run because they won't last as long due to fuel soak, ect. I have two Neme-Q's that are coming up on their fourth season of racing, and other than a couple dings on the bottom of one of the wings, they look as good as when they were brand new. I never had a monokoted airplane last that long without getting worn out.

PJ_TankPilot

All these complicated ways to slow down 428. All cost money, some substantial.

There is a really cheap way.

How much does a pound of lead cost ?

s-10promod

Slow down 428? Hummm don't we call that 424?

Duane-RCU

My Feedback: (5)

I probably will never fly 428. Too fast, too expensive. I don't want to see rule changes/slow downs, because as a spectator, I want to see speed! Like stated, slower=424. Those that have the money and ability to race that fast, should be able to. If technology goes backwards, so will interest, and racing will fizzle. 428-422 should be unlimited, and classes for the guys that can "find" the extra speed. If you can't keep up, do more homework!
Speaking of limiting big cars, NHRA tried lowering nitro/gear changes to limit MPH. So what did everyone do? Spin the engines higher and harder to make up for it. They didn't solve much.