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Thread: Composites


  1. #51

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    RE: Composites

    Just wondering, what would happen if the Viper (ARF) was not available any more like the Preator. As there is alot of guys out there that cant build & have't got the time to build.
    Would 424 racing stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    0r would that finally let composites be used in 424 racing?

  2. #52

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    RE: Composites

    Purely speculative... but if you look at the evolution of our sport, and racing as a small part of the sport, it has evolved from everyone building their own aircraft from kits, plans or their own designs into an ARF dominated hobby. Twenty years ago all the quickies were scratch or kit built and no-one even blinked an eye about having to build a few for the upcoming season. For numerous reasons, there simply are not many people, especially newcomers, building their own aircraft anymore. The Viper and Predator were a boon to 424 because they were an inexpensive ARF that did the job. If we lose the Viper and nothing similar replaces it, there will be serious issues attracting prospective pylon pilots by convincing them to either build or buy an expensive composite racers. IMHO that could be the last nail in the long term survival of this sport. Better buy a lot of Vipers to stock up and convince GP to keep producing them! Just my opinion - I am sure others have their own.

  3. #53

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    RE: Composites

    I went to Mulberry to see pylon racing for the first time. Got hooked immediately.

    Found 3 Barry West planes at Graves in Orlando. Raced em 3 weeks later at Markham Park. (I flew a trainer for the first time on Feb 16th so I've come a long way in a very short amount of time....)

    Recovered all of them to get rid of the polka dots...

    Couldn't find any more races in Florida....

    Drove 16 hours to Connecticut. Then the next weekend to Maryland. Raced against experts cuz there weren't enough standard pilots to race seperately. I got waxed for sure...!! The expert class of 424 is prominent in many other districts. These are 428/422 guys having a little fun on Saturday morning..
    I didn't stand a chance of course but it was quite an experience. I got a lot better quickly...

    Found 2 more Barry West planes at Graves. Bought em. Recovered em. Flying pretty good. All Predators...

    Question - (maybe Randy Bridge can give his thoughts and some of you other 428/422 guys...) Why can't we have the same thing here in our district.. Standard class 424 for us goober heads and 424 expert class for you 428/422 big dawgs. That way us 424 guys could race against our "own kind" for a time but have the option of trying to chase down the big dawgs when we're ready...Should it be okay to use composites in 424 expert class? Then at least us rookies would have a smaller step to take rather than jumping all the way up to 428.....Big step....!!!

    To be honest, it was a blast trying to follow those experts around and see their lines and try to emulate them.. On the straightaway's I was actually gaining on them but they got me in the turns....Workin on that....

    Ordered a Ninja from Darrol, pickin it up at the NATS.

    Found 2 more Predators online. Bought em....

    How bout it guys - how bout an expert class of 424 like many many other districts.....???????

    One things for sure. I'll be better prepared for the expert guys in October when I go back there to race...Gave me a new perspective...And something to shoot at.....

    Thoughts?

  4. #54

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    RE: Composites

    Composites are the only way to go in 424 & 428 class of racing where you guys are.
    We here in New Zealand South Island are heading towards full composites in what we call
    Q500 class for sportsman using a 46 size engine any prop but not carbon. We also have a class
    called expert Quickie using nelson or jet engines, which is your 428 class. We here are now getting a good number flying Pylon, most guys are now heading towards using composite air frames.
    They are made so good, fly straight & take less time to put together than a Viper??

  5. #55
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    RE: Composites

    Phil the word in general is that 3 pole is dying on the vine, I hate it too, but ya gotta go with what the trend is. Seems 2 pole is up and coming. Look into the Club 40 stuff, I remember a post that told of about 3 clubs having races in FL. We in Texas appear to only have (Maybe) 2 Dist 8 races this season. BUT we have already run about 5 Club 40, and have 2 or 3, 424 two pole scheduled. I think it was on the NMPRA site where the talk of FL Club 40 was at.
    ERIC DESARDI, Revver Bro. 159, NMPRA 59i, III%
    Moe's Cycle Service, New Creations-RC

  6. #56

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    RE: Composites

    Phil.
    Out here in California, Lee VonDerHey put on kind of a 424 race, but allowing composites and experts flying. Only two guys actually flew composite planes, most of the "experts" dusted off old woodies or bought Vipers.

    Vendata.
    In the western US, we allowed composites in our APRA (424) when the composites first came out, and they werne't illegal in the event. It didn't take long for the entries to go from 15-20 per race to 4 composites and nobody else. People saw the guys winning flying composites, and felt that they needed them to win. They didn't want to pay the price for them and quit. We outlawed composites and our entries immediately grew, although they still haven't reached the levels we had prior to composites almost killing the event.

    Eric.
    I've flown warbirds on a two pylon course. Frankly, it wasn't much more exciting to me than sport flying in formation with somebody else. I also had more close calls at a few warbird races than I've had in over 20 years of three poll racing. With equal airplanes, I don't feel that two pole is safer. If I could no longer fly three pole racing, I'd find another hobby.
    GS

  7. #57
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    RE: Composites

    see below!
    Scott Smith
    NMPRA 86t - District 7 VP

  8. #58
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    RE: Composites

    Guys, please don't get me wrong, I like 3 pole racing! I fly a mock 3 pole at my home field every chance I get, really I've gotten to where I prefer it. BUT 2 pole is here to stay, and in Texas Club 40 is real strong, and looking to start 2 pole 424 (as I've said before). The biggest thing I hear for 2 pole is it takes less workers to put on a race. Plus since our planes are slower (average less that 100mph) we can get into more smaller fields. Not all fields can run with the 500 foot set backs. Another issue is cost, how many can , for spent $500 on a race motor? The 2 pole racing here, $500 will buy the complete set up, minus a couple if do-dads.

    Had a second thought, or a just a different one, I race because it's fun, I enjoy flying, but most of all I go for the people! I really wouldn't care if we raced shopping carts at Wal-Mart, as long as it was with the Club 40 group we have here in Texas. This is the best group of people I have ever met!!

    Hi dollar plane, cheap ARF, 2 pole 3 pole, 200+mph or less than 90, who cares as long as your having fun and safe.
    ERIC DESARDI, Revver Bro. 159, NMPRA 59i, III%
    Moe's Cycle Service, New Creations-RC

  9. #59
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    RE: Composites

    As far as SEMPRA races, it is true we have lost 2 flying sites in the last 2 years. On a good note, 1 of them is coming back and a new one too This year was a little sparse, 1 in October, 1 in November, 1 in March, 1 in April, and the finally in September. Well, I think 5 races between 2 clubs in a year isn't too bad, is it? I am with you on wanting more races, and I will be greatful for some other CD's and clubs putting on races. I know what it takes since we put on 2 events, race and I am excited about next season and the new venues. Eric was correct in the decline of 3 pole racing over the past 5 years, but I have seen an increase in the past 2 years in SEMPRA. All we need to do is get others excited and help them up over the larning curve as quick as we can. I was the only one at my field 5 years ago, and now we have 5 racers on the course. Hell, 3 years ago 5 pilots was 424! I am so excited for you and Richard coming in, and we are the ones who can keep racing growing again. We should have a good group of pilots in 424 for September, at the Markham Park race, so bring it on!! Rick Ruede, Jack Fehling and I will show you the fastest line around the course! I hope you push me into running a 1:38 down there again, that is always fun!! Spread the excitement you have, and see how it takes off again.

    I have no ill feelings Eric, what you said was correct; to a point. I raced 2 pole and had a blast. Especially with a flying start like the Sarasota club used to do!! Good Times! 424 is not that much more costs than club 40. A Viper ARF is $120, a TT40 is $80. If you want to compare it to a club 40 ARF, it is $20 more for the kit and maybe 20 mph faster. The set backs are the same as an AMA legal 2 pole course, which is 400'. As with any AMA racing event, you may get a waiver for a set back modification. And it is not a big deal, since the AMA does not cover you when you race anyway. I assume you are competing at a sanctioned race, and everone fills out a waiver?? I have a great respect for club 40 and would love to try it. Like I said, 2 pole racing is a lot of fun too! But I will not try to say my way is better than yours, just different. I also will not try to sway people away from any type of racing because it is not how I do it, because the whole reason we do what we do is to have a good time.

    I would argue the safety of a 3 pole set up over a 2 pole anyday. The amount of workers needed are only 1 person less for a 2 pole course, and the distance may be set up at any lenght for either event. If you can race 2 pole, you can race a 3 pole course in the same location.

    I have learned quite a bit from flying over the years. The best group to be with are the one who love what they do enough to make the effort to travel to do it. IMAC, Pattern, Helis, Jets and racers all travel to do what they love. And I think the competitor spirit makes for a good group to be with. You rarely hear the complaining at a race you would at the sport club on any given flying day.

    So lets race! I feel the NEED FOR SPEED!!
    Scott Smith
    NMPRA 86t - District 7 VP

  10. #60
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    RE: Composites

    Scott, Thats great that racing is on the rise in your area!!!
    ERIC DESARDI, Revver Bro. 159, NMPRA 59i, III%
    Moe's Cycle Service, New Creations-RC

  11. #61

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    RE: Composites

    Vipers and the long gone Predators were easy.. HERE'S THE PROBLEM FOR US ROOKIE RACERS...Building a fuselage was a snap. Cutting out the ailerons and installing torque rods was a pain in the butt and then reinstalling them straight.? Building a V tail out of some flat wood was a pain. Cutting, sanding, shaping...torque rods in the elevator/rudder was more of a pain. Then you have to learn how to glass the middle section of the wings....Then setting the V tail in the fuse has to be done almost perfectly. Then Monokote lessons...Potting the wing? The kits you all mention are fabulous, BUT it's not something a rookie can do by himself..And it very time consuming..And a small mistake may well cost you the plane...

    I have to build planes out a bunch of sticks unless I buy a Viper....Luckily I found a bunch of Predators or I would NOT be racing..

    I built my first kit 424 plane-lots of people fly them, I won't mention the name - great plane...I installed the V tail wrong and it was confetti on it's maiden flight....I'm sure it had other issues too.

    Most people I've talked to WILL NOT buy a kit that they have to build. Especially for racing when it will certainly meet it's demise one way or another....


    Just gabbin guys, -Bought a composite - wish I could fly it in a 424 race!!!



    I would much rather spend the money for a composite that is pretty close to perfect and stop wasting my time building when I could be practicing...

    Wonder why guys will bring out 1500 dollar sport planes but claim that racing is too expensive...Hmmmmm

  12. #62

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    RE: Composites

    Attn: PhilMill you have hit the nail on the head (G0 COPOSITES)
    Dave New Zealand

  13. #63

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    RE: Composites

    >>> I built my first kit 424 plane-lots of people fly them, I won't mention the name - great plane...I installed the V tail wrong and it was confetti on it's maiden flight....I'm sure it had other issues too.<<<

    if at first you don t succeed, try try again [sm=shades_smile.gif]


    BV
    If it ain t leaking oil, then somethings wrong,,, USMC 82-03, RETIRED!

  14. #64
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    RE: Composites

    Yeah, short lifespans are a reality in pylon racing for sure! I lost 11 planes my first year, I hit everything moving AND stacionary I could! I guess I started building my own because I got tired of not knowing what would break next, since I didn't put it together. 4 years ago it was a little harder to find something with enclosed lnkages, and I knew I could design a plane that could beat what was available. I enjoy seeing my Scorpions on the line, but there is a lot of work in each one. The ARFs for 424 are a wonderful thing, and saved my butt overnight putting one together to race the next day a couple of times! Should composites be allowed in 424? I have hundreds of hours in testing, flying, creating molds and now testing again to even think about selling one for $120 a copy. Not to mention materials alone are double that. My composites will start showing up in 428 soon, but not in 424 at all.

    There will never be a such thing as a cheap composite plane, and for a beginner class it should not be allowed. I flew in IMAC in the beginner and Sportsman classes with a 30% Carden and was the only one without a 40% - 50% $7,000 airplane. The idea of money was all you needed to win was very real. Pylon doesn't need that fear of being beaten by anything other than a better pilot. 424 has removed almost all the purchased advantages by dis-allowing composites. SEMPRA does on better than the nationals by limiting RPMs so even spec engines are worthless. I think 424 should remain for new people. 428 is for the next step prior to 422. There are a lot of VERY important things you need to learn about lines, traffic, courtesies and routines before you jump into 428 and 422. I feel everyone needs at least a full season chasing points before you move up, get your a*% kicked and give up all together. Give yourself a chance to learn, AND enjoy the sport some. It is always nice to have a chance of winning, even if you get spanked in the end. I can't tell you how many times I have made dumb choices in a race and gone from first to 6th or 7th from 1 cut. Learn this now, and not when you are racing the current national champ and the world champ in a heat!

    See you at the line...
    Scott Smith
    NMPRA 86t - District 7 VP

  15. #65

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    RE: Composites

    Hey Bill Vargas, You're absolutely right. I will keep on trying till I succeed.

    I kinda thought this would happen in the learning process so when I bought the kits a couple months ago, I bought 3 of em.....!!!

    Learned a lot from the crash....I'll do much better on the next one.....I'll get it eventually - But it's gonna take some time and money......

    Asking a lot of questions and getting as much info as I can from other racers and online.....

    In the meantime, I have 5 Predators race ready and flying great....Took a lot of work to get em that way.. 2 more brand new ones on the way...


    Then I'll go back to work on the kits....Got a couple of 428/422 guys here in Orlando giving me some really good advice and helpful hints on the Predators and on the kits...

    Couldn't do it without em.....

    Hey Scott, I can take a good butt whoopin. BUt I won't ever give up. I'm movin onward no matter what....But I would like the chance to race some big dawgs. It will only make me better and more focused. IN fact, There are 2 Q40 guys that are gonna fly 2 of my planes and I get to chase em...Gonna be a blast....Good training...

    Enjoying every minute of this racing stuff....Almost have to force my self to fly my sport planes.....

    I agree with ya Scott about how much there is to learn.. I'm with ya dawg....Learning a lot....

    I'm hoping I can learn how to chase ya down...!!LOL If I catch ya Scott, will ya be nice and give me some room? LOL We don't wanna tear up our airplanes do we? LOL LOL



  16. #66
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    RE: Composites

    Well Phil, I am a NASCAR guy (rubbin' is racin") but I respect every one on the course; as long as you stay out of my line!. What I want is you and all the new blood to be around in 428 10 years from now when I start talking about the good ol' days of racin'! I will give you all I know in the pits, as well as all I got in every heat. Just remember 1 thing; I plan for the war, and beyond each battle!

    I hope to see all you guys at Markham. I can't wait to be on the clock again!
    Scott Smith
    NMPRA 86t - District 7 VP

  17. #67

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    RE: Composites

    Yo Scott, I'm a Nascar guy too. If you are faster than me , I'll simply move over and let you by. Then I'll do everything I can to keep up with ya...
    For me , right now, it's not about winning so much as it is about doing my absolute best, focus, concentration and most of all, having a blast doing it...!!!!!!!
    I'm gonna be bringing Rob Berry with me to Mulberry and probably to Markham Park. I fixing up my other Predator for another guy , Robert at my club. He wants to race too.... Another guy Nick, has watched us practice too and is selling one of his sport planes to buy a Viper or 2....

    That's 4 guys from Osceola Flyers in Kissimmee. That otta help fill up the matrix a bit.....I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure they have what they need to race with us......

    Yea , I am also looking forward to the drop of the flag......

    See ya soon buddy....

  18. #68

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    RE: Composites

    Good Going Phil!,,, they should keep you going till you start thinking about building your own and thats where the fun really begins! I mean flying and watching your own stuff putting the "whoop *****" on everyone,,, bragging rights just don t get any better [sm=shades_smile.gif]

    I wonder what the R200 vs the Seeker score is now?

    You ever thought about doing that? Building your own stuff is very easy too!


    BV
    If it ain t leaking oil, then somethings wrong,,, USMC 82-03, RETIRED!

  19. #69

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    RE: Composites

    Yea Bill, I plan on building my own stuff eventually. I've got a long way to go and a lot to learn before I do that though...One day....

    Building my 2 remaining kits will be a good step for me.....

    Found 2 more Predators. One new and one new but never flown....That'll be a total of 11 Predators......That means I can race a minimum of 11 heats!! LOL

    Then I can surely take my time and really get into building the kits.....I've done quite a few modifications to my race planes so I'm learnin a lot...

    Then I can help the guys that are newer than me......I can give em a lot of short cuts and kinda try to make somebody's racing efforts a little easier. Just like the guys are doing for me.....Thanks to Vaclav and Yousey....amoung others.....Many others.....

    Can't wait for the Hodges race on the 26th.......Might even get a couple OS 25 FX's and compete in the quickie 25 class....

    Then maybe a couple Skyraiders and try some Club 40 races......

    Heck, I'd race a bathtub if somebody put a motor on it.......

  20. #70

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    RE: Composites


    ORIGINAL: Bill Vargas

    I wonder what the R200 vs the Seeker score is now?

    BV
    Lets just say, that the R200 hasn't won a race yet this year and they seem to be everywhere around here.

    Seeker hasn't finished lower than third after 3 races, and I think the Whale even kicked a few R200's tails at the last race.
    Dave Norman
    29w

  21. #71

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    RE: Composites

    f
    ORIGINAL: Bill Vargas

    Good Going Phil!,,, they should keep you going till you start thinking about building your own and thats where the fun really begins! I mean flying and watching your own stuff putting the "whoop *****" on everyone,,, bragging rights just don t get any better [sm=shades_smile.gif]

    I wonder what the R200 vs the Seeker score is now?

    You ever thought about doing that? Building your own stuff is very easy too!


    BV
    Nirvana is your own scatch built woodie eating composites for lunch!

    Dan


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