Q-500 Racing Discuss AMA 428, AMA 424, and any other variants of Quickie 500 racing

Old School Q500 building

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Old 11-18-2008, 02:30 PM
  #1  
BloomAce
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Default Old School Q500 building

I have been noticing a lot of these Q500 kits/RTF ones have inflated prices and limited availability. I think it is time to go back to old school and design and build them yourself.
Anybody else agree?

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Old 11-18-2008, 02:52 PM
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diggs_74
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

I don't know that I would agree totally.. It's true that some of the higher end racers aren't cheap but you have to look at the time and effort (ie. money) that went into the design.. I've been working on my current quickie design for over a year and have maybe 3 planes to show for it and shortly another set of molds.. I'm not complaining just stating a fact.. If you look at some of the top models around and look at how many changes have been made and the cost of those changes you start to understand the price.. I know what's involved material wise in designing and molding a quickie and I can tell you that a guy would have to sell a pile of them to break even in most cases.. I can almost be you know one is making it rich selling quickies to the "masses"..

Sure, for $50 in wood and foam you can design and build a quickie, it might even be a winner but when you catch some bad air around #3 and pile it up you have to start all over and it may not be quite what you had the first time.. What I'm getting at is that when you buy a Vortex, Neme-Q+, Shotgun, whatever, you're going to get the same thing 99% of the time and that's a great flying quickie..

Just my .02 worth..
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Old 11-18-2008, 02:56 PM
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vicman
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

I agree with both of you guys. I think the other problem is getting them in a decent time frame.
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Old 11-18-2008, 03:52 PM
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daven
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

We are such a small niche, that other than the Viper, no one has decided to go after this market. The kits available are from small cottage type business's that are everyday modelers doing this in their spare time.

I was in the same dilemna you are in 5 years ago so I took a look at what was winning races and used similar moments and airfoils and drew out my own plans and cut my own kit. After I knew it would fly, I sent those drawings to someone that converted them to CAD and had a few kits laser cut for me. We then added the tabs and slots that made things easy to build, and continued to refine the design.

Go for it, its very rewarding, but don't expect to make a living at it. I'm lucky to make enough profit in a year to buy a new motor or wing, but I can get my kits at a reasonable price.

The big issue I see right now is wings. I spoke to a friend about sheeting a few for me, and the prices have definately increased over the past few years. Use to be able to get a sheeted wing shipped for about $60, now its closer to $100.

I am now working on a shoulder/midwing Seeker aimed at 424 racing that will utilize the Viper wing from Tower. The wings are $79 + $8 shipping for red or white. If all goes well, kits will be available this spring. Sounds like I need to make a mod for people to make as a T-tail. Still looking at least $150+ for a kit? Unless people are still interested in sheeting foam on their own...
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:44 PM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

what's in a 'kit' ? raw sheeted wing and a fuse kit ? a viper wing and a fuse kit?
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Old 11-18-2008, 09:00 PM
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BloomAce
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

Dave I think you hit it right on the head. Nobody has really gone after this market. I wouldn't expect to make a living at it. I do think there should be more options and availability for all level of pylon pilots. The Viper ARF fuse and V tail is very weak. I know there there are several articles on how to reinforce the plane. If it is an ARF I would expect that it is built right. Now the Viper wing is a winner. I like the idea of building your own kit. I like what I hear from you on modifying your kit to take the Viper wing. I think a well made 424 kit for mid level pilot with a price point around $100 would get more people into pylon racing if they are on the fence.

I think the biggest frustration for beginners in the 424 racing is having back up plane or wing and availability to get it. So if you have your own jig and plans you could build one faster than ordering one from a kit distributor that tells you that they have them in stock and ends up taking weeks or months to get it.

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Old 11-18-2008, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

BloomAce,

I can understand where you're coming from, but the truth is... the cost of designing and providing quality building materials are up there. And as a designer and manufacturer of the SAM-RAI wood kit, I wish there's a cheaper ways to do this so we can offer at a lower price to cover the cost.

Just like Dave Norman said, "The kits available are from small cottage type business's that are everyday modelers doing this in their spare time." In fact, Dave is 100% correct. I do this as a hobby, for personal pride and accomplishment and to give back to the hobby and future modelers. Money is not what drives me. If money was a factor then I'm at a losing end with many years of research and thousand of dollars spent with little money to show for. With that said, I hope all will understand why all the top quality Q500 models today are price where they are.

For those that maybe interested in a SAM-RAI Q500 kits, we have them available and in-stock and can ship it within 24-48 hours from the time we received the fund.

Regard,
Sam
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Old 11-28-2008, 05:44 PM
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Tony Pacini
 
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

Pay the money and get one that's done. I've found that it's cheaper than doing it yourself in most cases. Unless you have LOTS of time and a burning desire to build, pay someone else to do it. Work some extra hours or sell something you're not using to raise the extra cash.

Even if you scratch-build (supposedly the least expensive method, because you're doing ALL of the labor yourself), the materials would probably cost more than the run-of-the-mill ARF. Wood, foam, adhesives, covering, hardware........probably more than the $130 you'd pay for a Viper.

Thinking of building a kit? That's even more money than an ARF in most cases. Your labor time is slightly less, but the cost of the kit is substantially higher. One exception is the Vortex, because you can still get the composite wing already done, then build the fuse and tail from a laser-cut kit that goes together pretty quickly. (Or you can buy one that's completely done, it's just more money and longer wait time).

On the other end of the spetrum, composites are even more costly to do yourself. By the time you purchase the adhesives, painting supplies, consumable bagging materials, decent wood, and 3 or 4 rolls of different weights of cloth plus carbon reinforcements, you'll have to build probably 6-10 of them before you realize any savings, and that's not even counting the startup costs (molds, vacuum pump, painting equipment, tools). While it may only take a few hundred dollars in raw materials to lay up a composite airframe once you're up and running, ya gotta spend a wad of cash and a ton of time to get there.

Another thing to consider is that YOUR finished product may not be quite as good as the one you buy that's already "done", at least until you've built enough of them to become proficient. This is more of a factor than with any other type of aircraft. It's got to be straight, strong, AND light. Pretty helps, too!

Yes, there are exceptions. If you've already got the materials and you've got a long, cold, winter ahead of you (with nothing else to do), then building is a sensible approach. Most importantly, you must LIKE to build. This is different than any other event except combat; model airplanes ALL have an undetermined expiration date, but pylon planes tend to go away quicker than most.

Buy it "done". It's worth it, and you certainly get what you pay for.
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

Some of the clubs did Q-500 racers a few years back.

1) One member cut the wings.
2) Another cut out the fuselages and tail surfaces.
3) A third covered them.

This type of project is fun if everyone wants a given racer.

The final cost per airplane will be in the same range as a "Viper".

What I found over the last few years is that you pay extra for a scratch built product. The model is generally better than the China built model, but the cost of hardware, covering, and other materials brings the final cost up.

Most of the current Q-500 kits are built from individuals wanting to share their knowledge.

I built several of Matney's Models kits. These are relatively inexpensive short kits at around $100. You have to buy the wood, wheels, fiberglass, glue, and paint to finish the model. It will run around $200 plus your time. Attached is a picture of my "Dawg Gone It".

I am thankful to the few that continue to produce kits for this small market.

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Old 11-28-2008, 07:00 PM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

I already have three Viper wings, two good fuses, one that is heavily repaired and still flies great. I would love a decent fuse kit to fit the Viper wings to. If I could pay around $80.00 for a good fuse kit, that would be great. The wings usually survive in most crashes (from what I've seen...) so there are plenty. So $150.00 including wing would be about right, but I think selling without the wing would be just as good for me.
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:51 PM
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Randy Etken
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

I make a Q-500 called the R-200. I am thinking, what it would cost to make twenty planes. That is about what I make each year. What is the cost per plane if I was just starting up?

Mask maker and computer and vinyl $5000
Set of wing molds 5000
Fiberglass 400
Carbon Fiber 300
Balsa Sheeting 350
Tooling Epoxy for molds 150
Epoxy Resin 250
Vacuum Pump 350
Vacuum supplies Bags Poly peel 350
Paint guns 250
Landing gear 200
Total $12600
That is a cost of $630 per plane with no labor??? Yes you could do with out the mask maker. It would be $380 per plane.

It takes me about 100 hours to build a fuse plug and tail and make the molds. Then it takes 30 hour to make each plane.

Now if you do this and your plane is slow, you just start all over with a new design.

After looking at this, I should be buying from Chuck or Terence.
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:23 AM
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Tony Pacini
 
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

AMEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN, BROTHER!

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Old 11-29-2008, 01:19 AM
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Randy Etken
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

Now if I charged $10 per hour and the $380 that would be a total of $680. A price BoomAce calls inflated. I also fogot to list the PPG Concept paint at $300.
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Old 11-29-2008, 01:35 AM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building


ORIGINAL: BloomAce

I have been noticing a lot of these Q500 kits/RTF ones have inflated prices and limited availability. I think it is time to go back to old school and design and build them yourself.
Anybody else agree?

What really you intend for "old school" models? Can you give to me some examples?
Is this one an old school model? http://www.giustozzi.eu/?p=89
Thanks.
Cg


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Old 11-29-2008, 08:11 AM
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daven
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

If I buy a composite wing from Bruce and do the fuse and tail myself, I'm at about $400 my cost and about 15-20 hours work. I dislike laying up wings, and honestly haven't gotten it perfected well enough to trust one on an LS. Tails are another story (easy) and balsa / ply fuses are cheap and easy.

We've all been looking for the perfect $200-$250 Q500 arf. Figure out how to get a competitive one out there and I'm pretty sure they will sell like crazy. I just don't believe people understand all the small things that make a hand built Vortex or Neme-Q (and others) so fast can be put into an inexpensive ARF.

From what I hear from the Texas guys, a well built Viper is about two seconds slower on a ten lap course than the custom built Q500 planes. Most racers can live with that, but at the top US level, when everyone can fly very well, that 2 seconds turns into nearly half a lap at the finish.
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Old 11-29-2008, 10:53 AM
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Jerry-B
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building


DaveN
Put me on your list for your new mid wing Q500.
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Old 11-29-2008, 01:46 PM
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daven
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

Still working with my Cad guy, he's been real busy. Your on the list.
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Old 11-29-2008, 06:37 PM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

393wr

Nice looking plane, I like the new / different design. It is always nice to see different approaches to a rather simple airplane, this is how the Q500 has evolved over the years, and only through indivdual expression will the sport continue to be refined. I encourage those that are builders at heart to express their ideas in their own design.

I only wish could translate the text.


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Old 11-29-2008, 08:10 PM
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daven
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

wkevinm,

You can translate, there are web translaters out there that work pretty good for free. I ran the site above through babblefish, check this link for english translation:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate...rUrl=Translate
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Old 11-29-2008, 08:11 PM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

Scratch built Q500. This will take the Viper wing. I am working on building the V-tail.

The only money that I have spent on the project is the wood. That cost me about $50.
I have all the other supplies. I will be cutting my own foam cores. I have a hot wire and the Viper airfoil.
Here is a picture of my project so far. It is a lot more rewarding to build it yourself than buying an ARF and making modification you want designed into the plane.
It has been fun. I would encourage anybody that has moderate building skills to give it a try. It is not that hard to do.
Just make sure you build it straight.
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Old 11-30-2008, 12:09 AM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

I hope you all didn't think my $80.00 quest for a fuse was for composite. In this part of Texas, about all we have is Q25. We still have to travel for anything better, and that probably won't happen much for me. So a wood fuse/Viper wing is good enough (and legal) for most of us. Maybe this winter I'll build my own fuse, and might even try a conventional tail on one too. Unless a good designed fuse kit for the Viper wing comes available first.
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Old 11-30-2008, 02:36 AM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

Bloom, Your photos show what appear to be Doddger plans. Is there a reason you don't like the Doddger? I've been using them all this season in 424 with very good results.
Lost one in a midair at the last race. As soon as I get the other projects finished, I'll build at least one more for next season.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:19 AM
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

wkevinm

Thanks for your words. I'm an italian aeromodeller and I don't think at the fact that other people too can be interested to our works!
Now I have translated with Google Translator all the txt of my article (automatic translation may be very fun!) and I enclude it down here.
Bye bye from center of Italy.
Cg





Fulginium Q500
Pylon from class Quickee Q500.

The Remote Past.

For many years I do flying models and, like many of us
with age between the forty and fifty, I passed through several
aeromodellistic categories: first models to elastic, fly free, then always to motomodelli flight
free flight gliders and finally the radio flight.
(Cristiano years ago and Leo)
For my generation buy a box of assembly, a
balsa kit as we call it now, it was like not knowing how to
make a plane totally alone.
I still remember the "History of Aviation" dispense with the
beautiful triptychs that I
redesigned and enlarged in scale for me
and for my friends in order to make the
reproductions.
Designed templates or fantasy when I was
the same designer, manufacturer and tester.
It was the eighties and the pilots of aeromodellistic
group of Foligno, my city, are crazy for F3a.
We had three pilots in national ranking: Sergio Bergantini,
Franco dal Bello and Mario Belloni. This, in particular, has the merit of
bringing the first radio proportional to Foligno.
Mario, at the time airline pilot, bought his first
radio in the United States where people flies with gas
on the left and thanks at this fact in Europe our group
is now the only ethnic minority that flies in
"mode 4".
Perhaps for love of knowledge of a larger modeling
landscape or simply for spirit of contradiction
I was much more interested in the Team Racing,
to Combat, and Pylon than F3A.

Closer Past.

At the beginning of this year 2008 I decide that time is come
to learn more about Pylon.
With the tenacity (read: cheek) that stands out to me I
inform, consult Google, who was the Italian champion
Specialty and discovered that his name is Paolo Mucedola.
With a series of searches and cross call on the phone I were
immediately entered in the world of speed.
I just wanted to start with the aircraft Formula FAI F3D
but Paolo convinces me to go step by step and contact Fabio
Desolei, Quickee Q500 chief, for practice
School of Pylon.
In the meantime I speak of my initiative with three other friends
Pilots of my group: Augusto Buzzeo, Leonardo Radi and
Giorgio Marzioli.
Always exactly following Fabio Desolei indications we have
mounted 4 boxes of ARF Grand Chelem Q500 by Topmodel
equipped with Quickee Rossi engines.
With very few flights of training we were thrown in
races and have disputed the Italian Q500 championship
placing our pilots no less than the 2nd, the 4th, 5th and
8th place national ranking. (IMG_4879.JPG)

The name 393WR.

The Pylon Aeromodellistic Group of Foligno took
its own identity giving 393WR the name that now we explain.
Years ago, into an hangar of our local Aeroclub, were a beautiful
Fiat G 46, two-seater that was almost brought to flight
only a pilot whose life had strong shades of pure
adventure.
Walter Rattichieri, so called, was a pilot
hunting on Fiat Cr 42 then aircraft tester and fine
acrobat air.
(The G-46 with Walter.jpg)
His was a memorable passage with the above mentioned G46
in knife flight at very low altitude between two rows of poplars along the
the road of Foligno Aeroclub.
So the name chosen for our pylon team recalls
both the initial W.R. of great Walter and 393° Squadron
by Hunt to which he belonged and it seems that what we have
brought luck. (393 wr indirizzo.jpg)

The Present.

After a season of racing there seems finally to have understood what
should have a model to win in competitions
Q500.
So we put together our insights and after an
Autocad short step for the design, we printed a
project executive in 1:1 scale with which we went from
Gino de Dominicis, great for the building.
For those who do not know who is Gino say only that in the years
'80 who had bought a box of mounting "Made in
Italy "would have a good chance to buy a Gino
product. When we said that we needed for a prototype
Gino told us that between one and ten models the
execution time would not have changed that, whereas
waste and errors in processing, would put immediately
been working 20 models. Understand what kind of person?

The Model.

We intentionally wanted to linger in a preamble to
is not purely technical but purely human, that
allowed to show that things better than that
give more satisfaction comes from the head and the heart
of people.
Each of these flash has a history that is not only the
story of a project but the summa of histories and words
who gathered to become shape.
The accuracy of CAD design, execution and masterful Gino,
all the words to costs and find functional solutions
allowed to give birth to the model that now
we finally to explain.

The Q500 is the class that marks the "entry level" in the world of
Pylon, so these models are vital, robust and cheap.
Italian rules requires wooden fuselage, same goes for
the wing that may be all wood or coated polystyrene.
However, it is not permitted any part who comes from the mold.
This does not mean that the essence can not be
refined, and that attention to detail can not be
also economic.

The draft of the model started by choice of the profile.

To enable high speed with minimal drag would think to a profile
biconvex symmetrical as profiles of NACA 64 series. The
symmetrical profile has the characteristic of being neutral and
have, therefore, a moment equal to zero. So his
behavior is the same in reverse flight too.

For use on a highly technical plane for Q500 competition
like that, Doctor Eppler of Stuttgart University in Germany,
has developed a series of profiles taking into account that
a pylon model never need to fly upside down.

Thus were born the legendary asymmetric profiles the E220 and E221
which, on a perfectly shaped wings, have
very good results with low resistance
with progress and a good coefficient of lift in close turns
that airplanes are submitted by pylon.
The profile of Professor Eppler were further
optimized with sophisticated analysis tools which digital
have shown that if you can not reduce reduce
resistance beyond a certain limit, it is also
can improve the performance of the laminar flow around
profile.

Martin Hepperle has achieved these improvements by making
point specifically for the Q500 profiles MH16 and MH17.
To download your profiles you can connect to your site
at http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/

MH17 in particular is a high-profile benefits,
thickness 12.12%, small coefficient of drag, indicated for
Reynolds numbers equal to 400,000 and above and that is what we
we have chosen for Fulginium Q500.


Construction of the wing.

The polystyrene has chosen density of about 18 kg / mc. The plates
were the first team then left to mature
allow a smooth evacuation of moisture among the
cells of the material. The cut was done with a pantograph
parallel wire hot, obviously built by the same mythical
Gino, which allowed it to play a
single person.

After cutting the profile have been charged for the holes
servants wing, for the exit of the extension, for Headquarters
extensions and for the same slot of a bayonet Central
in hard balsa using wire always hot and changing the
Special dime specially built for this model.
For the coating wing was chosen in single Obec
sheet. (DSC_1592.JPG)

The legendary Gino say you should pay attention to the verse of
wood Obeche: if you look in a veneer with Obeche
a light grazing you will find that one side of the sheet, in
Matching wood fibers, has small
depression while the other side have that many and convexity
this because the process of cutting itself.
Well, areas with depression are those that go wet
glue and made adhere to the structure in polystyrene and not the
contrary. Indeed areas with the convexity made outside
once sanded wood will leave a significantly more
Smooth not having done the opposite. Think that the "Chinese"
know?
The glue used for bonding Obeche - polystyrene is
the Dual-epoxy capable of providing gifts in excess of
strength and deformability.

Following the wings are located below where the press should
stay up to the drying glue.

The next phase includes the installation of the board of entry into
balsa hard, burglary of the wings and the heading of
same with balsa and epoxy bonded. The wings are cut
and a wedge to maintain a smooth surface
sull'estradosso of the wing. For the hinges we recommend the use of
adhesive tape.

The tins of servo wing is derived from a
in balsa box with four strips of poplar to
ends cut into many slices depending on the extent of
locations of the servants. (DSC_1902. Jpg) The servant is screws on
hardwood small blocks, is biadhesive and then hangs
precisely in place. To lock everything we used a
sticker but you can use whatever you want. (DSC_1903.JPG)

Winglets.

No Q500 plane has to be because you prefer to adopt
a terminal in balsa wing or full trailer to end
the wing.
This model is an exception: the terminal is cut from profile
Obeche and clad in the same proceeding of wing and a
small winglet concludes the wing.
(DSC_1591.JPG) (DSC_1534 copia.JPG)
As you know the winglets increase efficiency because
decrease the resistance caused by the vortices induced to
, and a tip extended elongation without increase the wingspan.

Construction of the horizontal tail plane.

Wing same building with the only difference of
really tiny size of the profile N 64008 A.
(DSC_1585.JPG)
If you want the command horn lift may be
located inside the fuselage and is a by
do, of course, before pasting the plan to the fuselage.
(DSC_1565.JPG - DSC_1566.JPG - DSC_1567.JPG)
The postponement of control rod is made of wood with terminal
Metal hold with the shrink.
The hinges are glued to cyanoacrylates Mylar.

Construction of the fuselage.

The experience in the fields of competition has allowed us to
establish that the fuselage is the body that most of all must
be robust in an engine category Q500. Not so much
because the orderly separation engine and tear of
Cart unfortunately are on the agenda in a
Q500 competition but because to have a stable model is
also a serious fundamental longitudinal stiffness and
torsion beam of the fuselage.

The entire structure of the fuselage is balsa 6 mm with
sides that have been stiffened by the application of
two cheeks in birch plywood by 0.8 mm, in a muzzle and
the other tail, with large holes for the easing
glued with epoxy. Also bei in balsa ensure triangles
The absolute contact between the various parties. The bonding, when
are not in epoxy, are made of quality vinyl
Rapid drying (Bindulin). (DSC_1587.JPG)

The engine is always ordered birch 6 mm with wide joints,
bonding with Uhu Plus and triangles of balsa to avert the
dangers of posting.
The other ordered are in poplar plywood 3 mm.
(DSC_1589.JPG)

Complete all the milling of respecting the edges
range allowed by the Rules of 6.5 mm and a rigid unit
a lightness really insuperable.
As the legendary Gino twisting the fuselage and the grinding
teeth for the effort: It 'a bone!

The engine mount is the same as the Grand Chelem and houses
perfectly in the four nuts already Griffa
conditions in the engine so it is strongly recommended recycling.
(DSC_1580.JPG)

To access the servo motor and servants of the plans are Tail
been charged with bur holes that we have closed with corks
of balsa fastened with Scotch.
(DSC_1578.JPG - DSC_1581.JPG)

Construction of the vertical tail plane.

The rudder is made by working of a tablet
balsa from 6 mm to obtain its profiling with the cutter.
(DSC_1586.JPG)
The command is external. (DSC_1570.JPG)
The hinges are glued to cyanoacrylates Mylar.

Basket.

The basket is made of stainless steel laser cut. It 'a little
but heavy enough disk. Even if it is compatible
Cart Grand Chelem although the ideal would be to build
Ergal in a 2.5 mm. (DSC_1562.JPG)

Coating.

For the coating of copy photos we used in
dell'Oracover effect for the carbon wing extrados plan
Tail and the entire fuselage of the model. (DSC_1548.JPG)
For the belly wing and belly of the plan we Tail
dell'Oracover but always used a big black chess
silver.
Even the decorations are Oracover. (DSC_1536.JPG)
Two things I will always remember about this
material: its extreme quality and the feeling of space
its purchase has left in my wallet.

Flight.

Preparing three phases of flight that are many races to
in servo. A decidedly extended, a media and a
reduced. I decide to start with one that allows maximum
excursion to the servants and produces a displacement of about 1
centimeter to all moving parts.
The engine speed goes on and when the mechanic leaves his tail
I see the model as a starting harpoon straight and fast forward
to me.
Un po 'di cabra and the model is in flight. E 'beaten and
counteract his tendency to put down the muzzle on the act
trim to Cabri. Others do not need to correct if not a decrease
just the effectiveness of the rudder that appears deep
objectively too sensitive.
Landing is stable and manageable as a sailplane.
We say that its flight characteristics are beyond all rosy
forecast, now it is only to see a confrontation with his
more formidable opponent: the clock.
See you on the fields of race e. .. that's competition!

(DSC_1887 - from 1888 to 1894 - from 1895 to 1896 - 1898.JPG)

To see the video of his test just type
address: http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=NlOXfWQ3rpg

Cristiano Giustozzi 393WR Foligno.
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:24 AM
  #24  
dhal22
 
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building

was that the longest post ever?

david
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Old 11-30-2008, 02:09 PM
  #25  
wkevinm
 
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Default RE: Old School Q500 building



393wr

Thanks for the translation and good luck in future races.

wkevinm
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