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Backplate 05-13-2008 03:49 AM

Composites
 
I cant beleive you guys aren't using composites in 424 Quickie racing.
The only arf on the market at the moment is the Viper, which would take longer
to put together than a composite racer! Stupidity when there are composites ready
available over there to race! Sure there would be some good woodies that will go as
fast as a composite, but the problem is that one must build several to get a good one.
All composites are the same & all work. I reckon most guys that race pylon would have
more money than time! This is why composites are the way to go.

Ed Smith 05-13-2008 05:29 AM

RE: Composites
 
Whether I agree with the reasoning or not is a different discussion. However, 424 is looked upon as an entry level Pylon Racing event. It is felt that very few newcomers will spend $400.00 or so to start in an event they they may not like. To encourage new people to enter keep the event simple and as inexpensive as practical.

Ed S


luv to race 05-13-2008 05:29 AM

RE: Composites
 
Back in the late 90's when composites hit the scene, lots of 424 flyers were using them. Then the perception came about that if you were not flying a composite airplane, you could not win and/or be competitive. Coupled with the high costs of the composite planes. Guys were starting to quit and move to other disciplines of R/C flying. Thusly....They wrote the rule that eventually outlawed composite planes.

So...the "no composites" rule in 424 Quickee racing is enforced as a way to keep the costs down. I don't think it has anything to do with performance, speed, or accuracy of the planes. History has shown that composites run from $400 to $750 price range, which is too much money for a "beginner" type class.

I think if someone had a composite kit, and sold them consistently in the $125 to $200 price range. Maybe the powers to be would reconsider the rule that outlaws the composite stuff, and rewrite the rule to allow them. As long as they were sold under a particular price.

Just my thoughts.

Randy Bridge

bigtrev@xtra.co.nz 05-13-2008 02:51 PM

RE: Composites
 
Dave, as Ed and Randy say the 424 is the beginner class- I don't think your comments were truly related to a beginner class - were they? trevor h:D

Backplate 05-13-2008 03:01 PM

RE: Composites
 
I see your guys point! but there is no difference in 428 quickie than 424 quickie. Both could use composites & fly in the same racers on the day but just switch over engines for the class of racing. A 424 composite would be no more exspense than 428, if any thing the 428 would be more exspensive than a 424 because of the brand of engine. Pehaps there should be a sportmans class for new beginners in pylon like we have here in New Zealand. I can not see composites getting any cheaper to buy than $400. If you are going to race & compete you should have the best & be allowed to use it! I myself dont fly your 428
class 1 because I would have to pay out Aleast $500/ 600 New Zealand dollars to get a Nelson or Jett engine! Where I can buy any 46 size engine for under $200 dollars. And the other reason is there is not enough guys racing it in New Zealand. I share every bodys thoughts.

vicman 05-13-2008 03:10 PM

RE: Composites
 
You are close but not exactly right. 424 can race 428 with an engine change but not the other way around.;)
424 does'nt allow composite wings.

garys 05-13-2008 05:23 PM

RE: Composites
 
As have been said by others, the reason 424 doesn't allow composites is the cost. Composite airplanes almost killed our entry-level event in the southwestern US a few years ago (you could count the number of contestents on one hand without using all your fingers). People felt that they NEEDED the composite airplane to be competitve, and didn't want to spend that much money for the entry level event, and quit. Others that were interested in trying, were put off because they wanted to at least be flying something competitve when they started, and couldn't justify the expense of composites just to try out the event. While a well built wood airplane can be competive, the perception is composites are faster. As soon as they were outlawed in the entry level event, participation increased, and is fairly well attended now.

fizzwater2 05-13-2008 05:46 PM

RE: Composites
 
We've had two 424 only races in the Kansas City area in the last 3 weeks - 24 entries at one, 20 at another (even in the rain!). The cost of composites would have definitely kept several of the people from trying the races, if they felt they "needed" one to be competitive. The way to get more people to race is to keep the costs down, get them interested - then they can move to 428 or even 422 if they so desire.


scratchpc7 05-13-2008 06:05 PM

RE: Composites
 
For what it is worth, and please correct me if I am wrong.

As I look at the AMA rules for 424 racing, the only mention of deviation from 428 racing is the wings and tail. It is my understanding that a composite fuselage is allowed, but the wings and tail need to be wood or wood over foam. So at least from that aspect, a glass fuse would speed up the build process somewhat and make straigher fuses, but the foam wings keep the cost down.

As to the comment about more money than time, I don't have much of either but I have less money. I know several others in my area who race and are in the same financial shape as I am. If I have to spend loads of money, I am out.

As a racer (I use the term lightly) who started 17 years ago and only raced a few times, who is now getting back into it, there is no way that I would start racing with a $500 composite winged aircraft. Yes, it might fly better, but until I can fly a tight course in the 1:20's, and keep up with the best racers in the class, having a top-notch aircraft won't matter a whole lot. In reality, if I want to stay racing in 424, I will probably be scratch building my own aircraft. because I know I will stuff a few :):)[:@]

It is the same as purchasing a set to top-of-the-line Nike/Ping/Adams golf clubs when the best you can shoot is 120. It won't make you a better golfer, only one with more expensive equipment.

Those are my thoughts.
Doug

bigtrev@xtra.co.nz 05-13-2008 06:18 PM

RE: Composites
 
I think what Dave is trying to say is that if you can afford to buy a composite aircraft- forget the circumstances- then why shouldn't you be allowed to do so.........and race it in any appropriate class. I know Dave pretty well and his heart is in pylon racing -he will tell you that he has limited time to build, but because of his employment circumstances is able to afford a composite.
Financial circumstances are different for all of us- he also understands that............perhaps he is also saying that 'is it right that those that can't afford a composite should be determining those that can'.
An interesting subject- personally I sit on the fence, regards Trevor H:D

scratchpc7 05-13-2008 06:36 PM

RE: Composites
 
Hey Trevor,

I can understand what you are saying, but then comes the next issue. Pilot A can afford the best equipment, best aircraft, has two or three back-up aircraft. These aircraft come right in at the weight limit, fly perfectly, etc. Pilot B has one airplane that he built himself, no backup because he can't afford a second engine. Pilot B can never be competitive because his equipment just doesn't stack up. As Pilot B, I think at that point I will give up because I can't, or won't, spend lots of money to keep up.

AMA 424 racing is designed to help upstarts, like me, get involved in racing. As it is I am racing against folks who fly 428 at the National level. I can't keep up now, but at least I know it is not because I have an equipment handicap. If I keep with it, I hope to be able to challenge them someday.

However, 424 racing is an AMA event. Don't you gents in NZ have the option to make up your own rules and allow what you want in the racing classes?

Doug

bigtrev@xtra.co.nz 05-13-2008 06:49 PM

RE: Composites
 
Doug, a well thought out reply and one that I was anticipating arriving on the thread.........I don't know the answer to ones spending ability- let alone prioritising. I am self employed so I can work a few more hours to pay for my 'toys'.
Yes, we do have our own set of pylon rules, loosely based on the AMA rules- I suspect Dave (backplate) was trying to relate a circumstance that has cropped up here and referred to the AMA rules for a bit of guidance. Dave will no doubt comeback with his views later today.- currently its almost our lunch hour...........he swings a paintbrush for a living. Give him about 6-7 hours and he'll respond, regards to you all trevor H:D

Bill Vargas 05-13-2008 06:59 PM

RE: Composites
 
I'd have to agree, composites in APRA/424 is not a good thing for the beginner class. Building a "woodie" is VERY simple and easy to do,,, it just takes a little bit of time to build and a little tutoring from the seasoned Racers.

But for the cost of a composite Quickee with a nice LS or a SS and if your looking to go Faster, you will go Faster flying Q40 with the same amount of money,,, in some cases for less,,, and they are easier to fly too [sm=shades_smile.gif]


BV

Jeff Pfeifer 05-13-2008 07:31 PM

RE: Composites
 
I think 424 should definately stay as a wood and foam class to keep the cost down for everyone. This is the class that we need to keep as inexpensive as possible to get new blood in to racing. I realize that there are many that don't have the time to build from a kit or scratch, and the Viper/ Predator are good canidates they go together quickly, and fly pretty good once trimmed out. What I do believe the market needs is a larger selection of 424 legal ARFs that are in the $100-$200 range.

bigtrev@xtra.co.nz 05-13-2008 07:32 PM

RE: Composites
 
yes Bill, fully agree with your sentiments re Q40...........pylon racing has an interesting number of classes that caters for anyone Q40 being just one of them- in NZ we have a similar class
called Intermediate- flown by a small handful of people.
Our airframe rule for sportsman ( our beginners class) and Intermediate is 'open' so we are able to fly composite (wing /tailplane, fuselage) construction in those events as of right. Trevor H

Backplate 05-14-2008 02:18 AM

RE: Composites
 
I welcome all of you guys comments, on composites. So if they were cheaper you guys would be flying, no matter what your flying skills were like?
I know that a composite would be No faster than a good woody, so all this is relates around what can I afford? Even thou 424 racing over there is your beginers class for Q500.
If the guys were flying in a competition, & they were getting beaten by a faster woody every time would they give up because there woody racer was to slow!
As mentioned before what would happened if some one was racing a woody racer, & cleaned up a Composite racer? I can not see just because a composite is more exspensive you cant use it? Where is the logic? At the end of the day, what does it matter as long as you a racing & having fun, whether its a woody or composite?
We are all out there to try & win & have fun? So if you want to get a better air frame you have to move on to the class you guys call 428 with a Nelson or Jett to use a composite?
Any way guys I hope this all sort of makes sense to you all, & hope one day composites will be cheaper to purchase. Any way cheers for all the comments

DMyer 05-14-2008 09:03 AM

RE: Composites
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Backplate

I welcome all of you guys comments, on composites. So if they were cheaper you guys would be flying, no matter what your flying skills were like?
I know that a composite would be No faster than a good woody, so all this is relates around what can I afford? Even thou 424 racing over there is your beginers class for Q500.
If the guys were flying in a competition, & they were getting beaten by a faster woody every time would they give up because there woody racer was to slow!
As mentioned before what would happened if some one was racing a woody racer, & cleaned up a Composite racer? I can not see just because a composite is more exspensive you cant use it? Where is the logic? At the end of the day, what does it matter as long as you a racing & having fun, whether its a woody or composite?
We are all out there to try & win & have fun? So if you want to get a better air frame you have to move on to the class you guys call 428 with a Nelson or Jett to use a composite?
Any way guys I hope this all sort of makes sense to you all, & hope one day composites will be cheaper to purchase. Any way cheers for all the comments

The fact is... plenty of us have built high quality woodies and waxed the composites in 428. Fact is... not many people have the skills to build a woodie that is the equal of a composite. Asking a beginner or prospective racer to spend $400+ and up on a disposable airframe(or learn how to build a composite worthy woodie) for a beginner event where attrition is very high for the typical beginners.... will not attract or keep very many interested very long as has already been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Some even venture that high cost and composites are killing 428... but that is another matter I am sure no-one wants to discuss.

Bill Vargas 05-14-2008 11:42 AM

RE: Composites
 
DMyer, its not the cost,,, its just that nobody really has the time or don t know how to build a 424 or one for 428 like they used to back in the day. The other sad point is,,, our Pylon Racing community is small and kit manufactures don t have a high demand for Pylon ARF's, so they lose money and stop making them which leaves only the "high" dollar stuff, if you will. So now the Racer who isn t able to afford or doesn t want to spend the money for a composite plane goes away and does something else. Don t get me wrong and I am not saying to outlaw composites but maybe one day people will learn how to build their own again and when that happens, the mind set of having a composite will fade away.


BV

DMyer 05-14-2008 12:51 PM

RE: Composites
 
Does that mean the Viper will go extinct or is there enough demand that Great Planes will continue that line for the forseable future? IMHO... some may knock the Viper, but for $119, or less than it cost to fill my SUV once, 424 racers can obtain a decent quality plane that flies well... and is frankly, a better built plane than 75% of the average RCr's can build themselves!

Scorpion Racing 05-14-2008 03:17 PM

RE: Composites
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: DMyer

... IMHO... some may knock the Viper, but for $119, or less than it cost to fill my SUV once, 424 racers can obtain a decent quality plane that flies well... and is frankly, a better built plane than 75% of the average RCr's can build themselves!
Sad, but very true!!

Randy Etken 05-14-2008 04:05 PM

RE: Composites
 
1 Attachment(s)
I have built both foam and composite wings. It takes less time to build a composite wing than a painted foam and balsa wing. The difference is the mold, 40 hours to cut with cnc machine at $125 an hour. Fuse is the same, you have to carve a plug and make a mold. Most people will not do this or can not.
composite wings foam wings

Bozarth 05-14-2008 05:39 PM

RE: Composites
 
Almost all of the 428 racers in my area have put their Shotguns, Slingshots, Neme-Qs, Vortexs (compostites) on the shelf for local racing and have brought out Vipers (or balsa/foam equivalents). I have done the same. The Vipers fly 90% as good as the composites at 25% of the cost. We have seen the fun factor increase with the Vipers - less stress since the price is so much lower! I have even started building another ReVlution. I love composites and can tell a difference when I fly one, but for local racing, you can't find a better deal than a Viper. It reminds me of the Cold War with the Soviets - as soon as one racer brings out his composite, we will all have to. Once again, my comments apply to local races. And because of Vipers and great deals on short strokes, we have a new local 428 racer (Hey Rich) who not only has moved up from 424, but is also CD'ing our first race of the season! You can't ask for more than that.

Kurt Bozarth

djlyon 05-14-2008 05:45 PM

RE: Composites
 
Backplate, logic has no place in this issue or any racing issue. Perception rules.

Bill, start building Racer 2 kits again. I only have one left. I'm getting tired of scratch building Double Ds.

Actually I like my HurriKanes. Big Bruce wings and woody fuselage. The fuselage takes almost a week (2hrs per day)to build if I spend most of my time drinking beer and picking my nose. If it weren't for the $350 Hurrikanes I would still be racing only scratch built or kit built woodies.

Denis

HighPlains 05-14-2008 07:31 PM

RE: Composites
 
For crying out loud. They are called Quickies for a reason. They don't take that much time to build even from scratch. We should simplify the 424 racer by getting rid of internal tail linkage and maybe even the V-tails. Now with the portly weight limit, you don't even need small servos to make weight.

luv to race 05-15-2008 05:43 AM

RE: Composites
 
Building has been an issue ever since I got into this thing in 97'. The majority of guys just don't want to do it. Why, maybe that don't know how? Maybe they are too embarrassed to ask for help? Maybe they just don't live near guys that are willing to hang out in the garage and build planes? Who knows….

Like Denis said.. You can build a laser cut Hurricane fuse, or laser cut Vortex fuse kit in week. With minimal effort. But the key word is "effort", the one thing that the majority doesn't want to invest. I say, you can ***** all you want on the internet…by all means let it out. But next time you have a race in your area, put down the X Box and go to the flying field. Take your kids too. The kids can put down the Cheetos and go outside. Meet up with the pylon guys and strike up a friendship. Start hanging out with someone who builds, and invest the "effort" and have fun with it. Involve your kids….

Lastly, the Viper is still good for the hobby. Is hasn't made pylon racing "take off" like everyone always projects. But it's better than not having a cheap ARF for the new guy.

thoughts,
Randy Bridge


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