JollyPopper

My Feedback: (6)

I have read extensively about the Windex method of laying Monokote over Monokote and thought I understood it. However yesterday I tried to put a rather large piece of Monokote over existing Monokote on a wing and nothing happened. The glue on the top sheet did not activate at all. I am using Windex with amonia as I understood it was the amonia that kicked the glue. I sprayed the wing and laid the overlaying sheet down and began to squeegee it. For a long time. I squeegeed and wiped the overlayment until the wing was absolutely dry and NOTHING. The overlying sheet did not adhere AT ALL. The only thing that even remotely held it in place was a slight bit of static electricity caused by rubbing it. I left it overnight and this morning, it just lifted off as if I had done nothing. What did I do wrong? And how can I lay this top sheet on if this method does not work? I am afraid if I try to iron that big a sheet on, I will end up with a million small bubbles between the two. Can I use a woodpecker on the base and iron it down as a last resort?

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Sounds like you did it correctly. I juice up my windex with more ammonia too. Did you use alcohol and acetone to clean the wing first? I only use the windex on small stuff like trim.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Did you pull the clear backing off of the Monokote? Probably did, but just have to check just in case.

I've done many Windex jobs on Monokote and have never had a problem where it did not adhere. If you had an excessively large piece of Monokote it may take it quite a long time (24+ hours) before it's finaly set.

Ken

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Good answer Ken!! I have done that and ended up swearing at the covering before I discovered my problem.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I have used this method for years as well and never a problem. I have not worried about what it was in the windex that activated the Monokote just have been using good old blue windex. My guess is like the other guys there wasn't enough time or temp for the windex to evaporate completely.

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

I was just applying some trim using Windex. I have never had any problems with it. Another thought I had is to make sure that you are using Monokote and not Ultracoat. Ultracoat will not set up with Windex. Good Luck, Dave

JollyPopper

My Feedback: (6)

At one time or another I have done all the bone headed things you guys have mentioned, but not the case this time. There is enough amonia in this stuff so that I can smell it very slightly. I think I will add some and try again. This piece may be too large to use the Windex as there are compound curves that I am trying to cover. There are gaps between the two sheets that will not stay down, especially over the rib caps. I can rub them down with a squeegee or paper towel only to have them apper somewhere else and I am unable get them all down smoothly at any one time. This is becoming a real headache.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Somebody didn't slip you some Ultracote, by any chance? It has a paper backing, and the adhesive won't activate with Windex.

....me? no, no... it was somebody else that did that... yah, a friend...

Dave Olson

Luchnia

My Feedback: (21)

Was this new MK? Just a thought, but the last MK I bought was almost useless as far as glue quality. I even wound up using some 3m adhesive on some of it so I could at least use the pieces that would not adhere. I have only been able to make small patches out of it to try to use up the roll as far as using the heat process on it. You may have gotten a roll like I last purchased. I think something is wrong with the material and also most of the glue is bad on it. So far it has only been white MK that I have had that is bad from the factory.

Let us know what you find out is the problem.

LesUyeda

"Let us know what you find out is the problem. "

The EPA strikes, AGAIN.

The manufacturers have been force to eliminate everything that made the products perform like they were designed to.

Les

carrellh

I would say "yes." In the compound curve areas that's probably your only choice.

Luchnia

My Feedback: (21)

It is a two-sided coin for sure. We don't want things that are gradually killing us, yet we do want our products to work as designed or at least be notified that the stuff wont' do what it is advertised to do then we can decide if we want to spend our hard earned money for it or not.

After so much "elimination" at some point the product will have to be renamed to something like, "Tape on Covering." ToC works great, just use duct tape to hold it on while flying - as the material stretches just re-tape with new duct tape

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

On a large area I would be tempted to remove most of the bottom covering and lay right on the plane. This does not answer you question I know. Just saying. I also did a large camo job once for a guy. I layed out the pattern and seemed it togehter on a large sheet of glass. Then layed it down as one piece.


David

huck1199

I found that trim solvent works well even on large pieces. I put a row of wides stripes on a wing bottom with no problem. I just wiped the base with a lint free cloth soaked with solvent and laid down the strips (2.5" wide by 10" long) and smoothed them out quickly.You don't even see the solvent on the base. You have to work fast as the solvent dried up in less than 30 seconds.

mirwin

My Feedback: (1)

" . . . . There are gaps between the two sheets that will not stay down, especially over the rib caps. I can rub them down with a squeegee or paper towel only to have them apper somewhere else and I am unable get them all down smoothly at any one time. . . . . . "

I suspect that the complexity of the surface is the cause of your problem. I've laid large sheets of MK down on MK without problem many times. And I don't think that Top Flite has changed the formula either.

But if your fuselage is built of sticks rather than sheeting, I don't think you'll get it to stick due to the wavy surface. if I understood correctly, then I think you'll have to use Top Flite Trim Solvent to get the job done. And I hate using that stuff! If you do try it, go easy on the volume that you apply; too much will disolve the pigment.

I'll soon face the same problem with my newly built Pica WACO YMF-3. Although I won't be applying large pieces of MK on the fuselage, I'll be applying 1/8" strips horizontally down the fuselage. Same problem. In fact, I've been thinking about having Cal-Grafx just make up the strips for me.

By the way, anytime I use the Windex method, I always apply Trim Solvent along the edges with a fine brush AFTER 24 HOURS. I've never, ever had the MK come loose, even after 7 years.

Best of luck to you,
Mike

huck1199

Why not do a test with a couple of small pieces and windex and see what happens?

Avaiojet

Are you using this for trim or accent stripes? Designs or graphics?

I've said this many times. I'll say it again!

Go to your local sign shop and ask for left over vinyl.

THEY HAVE PLENTY! Just as I do.

I mail mine out to modelers, for free, those who just pay for the shipping.

My scraps can be 2" wide to 12" wide in any length. Mostly 24" and 30". Sometimes longer and some cut scraps are smaller.

Sign shops toss this stuff in the trash! Honestly! If they know you need their scraps, they will save them. Sign shops are everywhere, just like model graphics guys.

Hit two or three the same afternoon or morning. At the end of the day, they will have more scraps from the days work. These scraps are on going and on going.

Sure, you may have to wait for the color you want, but it's free!

I've also Posted on how easy it is to make letters and graphics.

Go get your scraps and let's see what you can do?

Oh, one last thing. Vinyl can be applied wet, just as you described. I tell guys, that buy my graphics, to use spray foam in aerosol cans.

Let me know how you make out?

My Waco with vinyl over covering.

JollyPopper

My Feedback: (6)

Avaiojet, I was attempting to use the Monokote over Monokote for accents/designs over a solid purple base. I would be open to using vinyl but I have no idea how to use it. Suppose I did come up with some vinyl, what do I do with it? Are you saying to use it just like I was trying to use the Monokote? How does vinly adhere to Monokote? Would I use heat to apply it? I am willing to use any method that will work, but I am starting from scratch here as I know absolutely nothing about using vinyl. Evidently, I don't know a hell of a lot about Monokote either.

huck1199

What is spray foam?

scooterinvegas

My Feedback: (1)

I was wondering the same thing!! You mean like the stuff I use to seal up cracks in my windows and doors?? [X(]

Maybe something like "Scrubbing Bubbles"??

Duh, it just came to me, aerosol glass cleaners "foam" up when you spray them on!!

(I might not be the sharpest tack on the roof, but at least I'm funny looking!)

scooterinvegas

My Feedback: (1)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPcHDYslaVw[/youtube]

Avaiojet

Applying vinyl material to a model is not the same as applying vinyl to windshield glass. You can press hard on glass.

Models are delicate. Some areas more than others. Pressing is limited. Patients are important.

I'm saying this in jest, but it's true. Any idiot can apply vinyl, I know cuz I'm living proof! [sm=bananahead.gif]

Vinyl cannot be used as a covering material. Most of the lettering stuff and stripes on my Waco were applied dry.

The bold stuff was applied damp and without transfer paper. Sometimes a heat gun can be used for shrinking.

I've had model builders apply my insignias with a heat gun to burnish the vinyl around wing stitching and tape. Amazing results some talented modelers get! Take a look at my RCU Gallery. All those graphics and lettering were applied by the modelers. All talented guys and great customers. Here's the link!

http://www.rcuniverse.com/community/...ry&memid=11343

I keep saying this. Just go and get some vinyl. As much as you can. IT WILL BE FREE!

Clean up that model that you forgot where it is, if you can find it? Use it as a tool for experience.

I've never been one to say making vinyl graphics was difficult or is the application. Nothing is difficult once you learn.

A line from the movie "The Edge." "What one man can do, so can another."

You learn by doing.

I had a Corsair redo vinyl Thread about making your own vinyl graphics and lettering, I used my H9. I'm sure the Thread is still there.

I'll be glad to help out anyone that wants to work with vinyl. I keep no secrets. "Modelers helping modelers."

All I did was make this stuff. The modelers did the rest!

Avaiojet

I guess RCU is like most of us, in that, they throw nothing out.

I found the Corsair make over Thread with simple vinyl changes. Here's the link!

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_84...tm.htm#8462647

A few more photos of talented modeler's airplanes.

mirwin

My Feedback: (1)

Avaiojet,
I'm now finishing the build phase of my WACO YMF-3, and I want to use vinyl. I have a question though:
How do you apply the vinyl to compound curves?
I want to do the leading edges of my wings, horizontal and vertical stabilizer as you have done. But I can't see how you can use vinyl on the wingtips or the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer without it wrinkling.
Would greatly appreciate your assistance.

Mike

Avaiojet

Mike,

Couple of things. First of all, for that use, I would use only HP, high performance, vinyl only. It's thinner and goes around stuff easier. You also have to have talent with a heat gun because you can overshrink. There are fine wrinkles there, but I burnish them down. The difficult places I make cuts or piece. Piece first then the larger stuff goes on after. Just like airplane covering. Difficult to see the overlaped edges in photos AND when standing ten feet away.

I've been doing this a long long time. The first vinyl I used was made by the 3M company and was sold in 27" X 20" sheets. This was the early 70's. Stuff only came in six or so colors.

Model covering works the same way, but I believe, only in some cases, it's more difficult to work with.

I mentioned that modelers heat and burnish vinyl over detailed areas, like wing stitching.