Weight limit
11-07-2012, 06:41 AM
#52
RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: sensei
Lets hear more about the airplane, Length, span, whatever, enough of this politics crap.
Bob
Lets hear more about the airplane, Length, span, whatever, enough of this politics crap.
Bob
I flew on a Herc from Pax River to Greenland, most miserable flight hours of my career!
11-07-2012, 06:42 AM
#53
Senior Member
RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: crash1ace
I don't trust or ever feel safe around any model flyer who isn't an AMA member either .
I don't trust or ever feel safe around any model flyer who isn't an AMA member either .
As far as weight limits, if one is an AMA member and claims insurance needs,he is bound by the AMA safety code. One should understand what the safety code states; it's all there in black and white on the AMA website. However, if one has no AMA membership it doesn't mean that he can do whatever he wants regarding models. A large enough incident affects us all
11-07-2012, 07:27 AM
#54
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RE: Weight limit
Interesting thread the first where I read every post from beginning to end. Well I mean one this long.
First let me say good luck with your project...the first operational airplane I worked on was a KC-130F at MCAS EL TORO. I'd love to see a video.
In my opinion you guys should become AMA members for the insurance, and you should be protecting the land owner whom you seem to have a lot of respect for.
As stated there is a weight limit, and a waiver for up to 125 lbs. The wavier process is not just an inspection of the airframe. But it includes a flight to prove airworthiness. Now after all that the inspector can be held liable as well as the pilot/owner. (Which is why I didn't finish the inspector process) Plus you're on a more or less honor program that any modification or repairs will be cause for reinspection. I can't imagine an inspector granting a waiver to a non AMA member.
Here is another thing to consider. A landowner does not own any airspace above his property. Not even so much as a hairs width above the tallest object. So the FAA would be the authority if something were to happen, if they wanted to get involved.
Anyway you can do as you wish. I hope you the best I feel though you're putting yourself and the land owner at risk
First let me say good luck with your project...the first operational airplane I worked on was a KC-130F at MCAS EL TORO. I'd love to see a video.
In my opinion you guys should become AMA members for the insurance, and you should be protecting the land owner whom you seem to have a lot of respect for.
As stated there is a weight limit, and a waiver for up to 125 lbs. The wavier process is not just an inspection of the airframe. But it includes a flight to prove airworthiness. Now after all that the inspector can be held liable as well as the pilot/owner. (Which is why I didn't finish the inspector process) Plus you're on a more or less honor program that any modification or repairs will be cause for reinspection. I can't imagine an inspector granting a waiver to a non AMA member.
Here is another thing to consider. A landowner does not own any airspace above his property. Not even so much as a hairs width above the tallest object. So the FAA would be the authority if something were to happen, if they wanted to get involved.
Anyway you can do as you wish. I hope you the best I feel though you're putting yourself and the land owner at risk
11-07-2012, 07:36 AM
#55
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RE: Weight limit
As far as weight limits, if one is an AMA member and claims insurance needs, he is bound by the AMA safety code. One should understand what the safety code states; it's all there in black and white on the AMA website. However, if one has no AMA membership it doesn't mean that he can do whatever he wants regarding models. A large enough incident affects us all
1. Whether or not you are an AMA member, there is no law establishing a weight limit for model aircraft. The AMA "weight limits" affect what you can do at an AMA club's field and whether you are covered by their insurance. They don't make it illegal to fly a heavier model though. You won't be arrested and the AMA won't kick you out.
2. It's true that a large enough incident can affect us all. That fact does not, however, create a legally binding weight limit. The FAA may create one someday; I'll be surprised if they don't. Until they do, though, people are "free to do whatever they want," subject of course to the risks of being sued or possibly facing criminal penalties for reckless conduct. You don't have to like it, but disliking it doesn't change the facts.
3. It's interesting that none of the people claiming that there really are weight limits other than the AMA's insurance requirements never mention any specific weight. If these supposed limits existed, you'd think somebody would take the trouble to tell us what they are.
11-07-2012, 07:46 AM
#56
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RE: Weight limit
I stand corrected. The B-29 I referred to was the Byron's, 29' span and 400 lbs.
The weight limit for AMA ops is 125 lbs for props and 100 for turbines. Not under AMA, you're responsible but there's no limit.
After 3 pages, here's the reg:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/520-a.pdf
11-07-2012, 07:57 AM
#57
RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn
OK, let's try again.
1. Whether or not you are an AMA member, there is no law establishing a weight limit for model aircraft. The AMA ''weight limits'' affect what you can do at an AMA club's field and whether you are covered by their insurance. They don't make it illegal to fly a heavier model though. You won't be arrested and the AMA won't kick you out.
2. It's true that a large enough incident can affect us all. That fact does not, however, create a legally binding weight limit. The FAA may create one someday; I'll be surprised if they don't. Until they do, though, people are ''free to do whatever they want,'' subject of course to the risks of being sued or possibly facing criminal penalties for reckless conduct. You don't have to like it, but disliking it doesn't change the facts.
3. It's interesting that none of the people claiming that there really are weight limits other than the AMA's insurance requirements never mention any specific weight. If these supposed limits existed, you'd think somebody would take the trouble to tell us what they are.
As far as weight limits, if one is an AMA member and claims insurance needs, he is bound by the AMA safety code. One should understand what the safety code states; it's all there in black and white on the AMA website. However, if one has no AMA membership it doesn't mean that he can do whatever he wants regarding models. A large enough incident affects us all
1. Whether or not you are an AMA member, there is no law establishing a weight limit for model aircraft. The AMA ''weight limits'' affect what you can do at an AMA club's field and whether you are covered by their insurance. They don't make it illegal to fly a heavier model though. You won't be arrested and the AMA won't kick you out.
2. It's true that a large enough incident can affect us all. That fact does not, however, create a legally binding weight limit. The FAA may create one someday; I'll be surprised if they don't. Until they do, though, people are ''free to do whatever they want,'' subject of course to the risks of being sued or possibly facing criminal penalties for reckless conduct. You don't have to like it, but disliking it doesn't change the facts.
3. It's interesting that none of the people claiming that there really are weight limits other than the AMA's insurance requirements never mention any specific weight. If these supposed limits existed, you'd think somebody would take the trouble to tell us what they are.
11-07-2012, 08:12 AM
#58
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RE: Weight limit
Interestingly, the ultralight aircraft weight limit in the U.S. is 254 lbs. Below that, it's a vehicle like a snowmobile and as such not under FAA purview. So we're not that far from the man-carrying arena. [X(]
If I read the minutes right, heavy model aircraft exceeding the weight limits approved prior to April 2009 were grandfathered in.
The first large plane approved by the AMA was a Wing Derringer, a model of a very interesting production light twin. The model was from the Detroit area in the early '80's.
11-07-2012, 09:21 AM
#59
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RE: Weight limit
The airplane will have an 18' wing span and will be just over 13 feet long. Our runway is 1000 feet long, all grass, that we share with full scale pilots. The owner is deeply involved with anything that flies and is involved in this project also. We really hope this thing comes in under 55 pounds, but we aren't sure yet. We will do everything in our power to stay within any and all guidelines. As far as the builder/pilot is concerned, I have only ever seen one better pilot. If anyone can handle this thing, I'm sure he can. But as everyone knows, accidents can and do happen all the time. I believe (really sure) that he is an AMA memmber as he flies all over the country. I will also rejoin if all the things I have read here are accurate.
11-07-2012, 11:57 AM
#61
RE: Weight limit
This is a really big airplane your talking about and 4 180s with mounts, props, spinners & fuel tanks are going to run close to 12 lbs. Landing gear around 8-10 lbs. radio gear, batteries, wiring, linkage around 8 lbs. and paint believe it or not will run at least 6 lbs. and easily more. So we are talking 36 lbs. before the airframe itself and that leaves like 19 lbs. for this huge structure and that is probably not realistic for a 55 lbs. composite airframe. Honestly I see a 75-85 lb. airplane unless you consider reducing the scale to something like 150"-160" span. down from your current 216" design. Any chance you can share the current design wing area with us?
Bob
Bob
11-07-2012, 01:10 PM
#63
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RE: Weight limit
Sounds like a cool project. Good luck!
The statement about the FAA controlling 'every inch of airspace' is not true. Look at an aeronautical or sectional chart and look at the legend for 'uncontrolled airspace' and do a search on positive controlled cairspace. A great deal of the airspace below 400' above ground is uncontrolled, and uncontrolled can range from 400' to 18,000 (flight level 180). Most uncontrolled airspace in the US is below 10,000'.
11-07-2012, 02:18 PM
#65
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RE: Weight limit
Fontanooch, this thread was never about who was responsible. I understood that aspect before I ever introduced the thread. The thread was about what the limits are and how we can stay in complainace with everybody's rules.
sensei, I don't have the plans here so I don't know what the wing area is. But I suppose it could be calculated easily. The full size C130 is 132 feet, 7 inches, so 18 feet wingspan would be about 1/7 scale. The area of the full size wing is 1745 square feet, so 1/7 of that would make the area of the model just under 250 square feet.
sensei, I don't have the plans here so I don't know what the wing area is. But I suppose it could be calculated easily. The full size C130 is 132 feet, 7 inches, so 18 feet wingspan would be about 1/7 scale. The area of the full size wing is 1745 square feet, so 1/7 of that would make the area of the model just under 250 square feet.
11-07-2012, 02:58 PM
#66
RE: Weight limit
250 sq. ft. of area is not the number so I just took 216" x 28" average cord that gives you 6048" of wing area, and that is a bunch, in fact that works out to about a 32oz. wing loading and a cubed loading of 5.0 if you keep things the same as they are and your finish weight is 85 lbs. This airplane will fly very forgiving at those numbers and be a real pleasure to fly, The power loading will suffer some at this weight but everything you do on an airplane is a trade off. so the best you can do is too keep things as light as possible.
Bob
Bob
11-07-2012, 04:14 PM
#67
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RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: JollyPopper
Fontanooch, this thread was never about who was responsible. I understood that aspect before I ever introduced the thread. The thread was about what the limits are and how we can stay in complainace with everybody's rules.
sensei, I don't have the plans here so I don't know what the wing area is. But I suppose it could be calculated easily. The full size C130 is 132 feet, 7 inches, so 18 feet wingspan would be about 1/7 scale. The area of the full size wing is 1745 square feet, so 1/7 of that would make the area of the model just under 250 square feet.
Fontanooch, this thread was never about who was responsible. I understood that aspect before I ever introduced the thread. The thread was about what the limits are and how we can stay in complainace with everybody's rules.
sensei, I don't have the plans here so I don't know what the wing area is. But I suppose it could be calculated easily. The full size C130 is 132 feet, 7 inches, so 18 feet wingspan would be about 1/7 scale. The area of the full size wing is 1745 square feet, so 1/7 of that would make the area of the model just under 250 square feet.
11-07-2012, 04:14 PM
#68
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RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: sensei
Oh hell, three years ago I sat on the AMA board in discussions of giant scale aircraft exceeding the 55 lb. rule and setting new rules for aircraft in the experimental category due to my heavy involvement with very large airplanes. So as I stated if you are not flying at a sanctioned club then it is your rules, your responsibility and your liability, so just use common sense.
Bob
Oh hell, three years ago I sat on the AMA board in discussions of giant scale aircraft exceeding the 55 lb. rule and setting new rules for aircraft in the experimental category due to my heavy involvement with very large airplanes. So as I stated if you are not flying at a sanctioned club then it is your rules, your responsibility and your liability, so just use common sense.
Bob
11-07-2012, 04:30 PM
#69
RE: Weight limit
My recollection at one time the limit in the US for it to be considered a model was 55lbs. In Canada our limit was 75lbs. The US raised their limit to 75lbs and up to 100lbs with inspection. When these larger models are flown in Canada they fly under a waiver where the pilot must carry their own insurance and they are approved for that event only.
The powers to be aka FAA on the US side and Transport Canada on the Canadian side do not want to regulate models that are used for recreational purposes. They want to leave that up to the AMA in the US and MAAC in Canada. The two key words are “model” and “recreational”. The FAA and Transport Canada regulates everything else that is not recreational or what is outside the definition of a model as set out by the AMA and MAAC. The AMA and MAAC have worked with the federal governing bodies to define what is a model and what activities are recreational so it might be wise to be aware of what exactly is considered a model.
Will anyone stop you from flying a quad copter taking photos and selling them which is plainly a commercial venture? Probably not. Same goes if you build something not considered a model as defined by the recognized modeling body of your country. Likely no one will stop you if you fly at a non sanctioned field. Is it legal? I think that would be up to the government entities either federal or local depending on how hard they want to push it or how grievous the incident that brought it to their attention.
We are all big boys and have to take responsibility for our actions.
The powers to be aka FAA on the US side and Transport Canada on the Canadian side do not want to regulate models that are used for recreational purposes. They want to leave that up to the AMA in the US and MAAC in Canada. The two key words are “model” and “recreational”. The FAA and Transport Canada regulates everything else that is not recreational or what is outside the definition of a model as set out by the AMA and MAAC. The AMA and MAAC have worked with the federal governing bodies to define what is a model and what activities are recreational so it might be wise to be aware of what exactly is considered a model.
Will anyone stop you from flying a quad copter taking photos and selling them which is plainly a commercial venture? Probably not. Same goes if you build something not considered a model as defined by the recognized modeling body of your country. Likely no one will stop you if you fly at a non sanctioned field. Is it legal? I think that would be up to the government entities either federal or local depending on how hard they want to push it or how grievous the incident that brought it to their attention.
We are all big boys and have to take responsibility for our actions.
11-07-2012, 05:06 PM
#70
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: Propworn
My recollection at one time the limit in the US for it to be considered a model was 55lbs. In Canada our limit was 75lbs. The US raised their limit to 75lbs and up to 100lbs with inspection. When these larger models are flown in Canada they fly under a waiver where the pilot must carry their own insurance and they are approved for that event only.
The powers to be aka FAA on the US side and Transport Canada on the Canadian side do not want to regulate models that are used for recreational purposes. They want to leave that up to the AMA in the US and MAAC in Canada. The two key words are “model” and “recreational”. The FAA and Transport Canada regulates everything else that is not recreational or what is outside the definition of a model as set out by the AMA and MAAC. The AMA and MAAC have worked with the federal governing bodies to define what is a model and what activities are recreational so it might be wise to be aware of what exactly is considered a model.
Will anyone stop you from flying a quad copter taking photos and selling them which is plainly a commercial venture? Probably not. Same goes if you build something not considered a model as defined by the recognized modeling body of your country. Likely no one will stop you if you fly at a non sanctioned field. Is it legal? I think that would be up to the government entities either federal or local depending on how hard they want to push it or how grievous the incident that brought it to their attention.
We are all big boys and have to take responsibility for our actions.
My recollection at one time the limit in the US for it to be considered a model was 55lbs. In Canada our limit was 75lbs. The US raised their limit to 75lbs and up to 100lbs with inspection. When these larger models are flown in Canada they fly under a waiver where the pilot must carry their own insurance and they are approved for that event only.
The powers to be aka FAA on the US side and Transport Canada on the Canadian side do not want to regulate models that are used for recreational purposes. They want to leave that up to the AMA in the US and MAAC in Canada. The two key words are “model” and “recreational”. The FAA and Transport Canada regulates everything else that is not recreational or what is outside the definition of a model as set out by the AMA and MAAC. The AMA and MAAC have worked with the federal governing bodies to define what is a model and what activities are recreational so it might be wise to be aware of what exactly is considered a model.
Will anyone stop you from flying a quad copter taking photos and selling them which is plainly a commercial venture? Probably not. Same goes if you build something not considered a model as defined by the recognized modeling body of your country. Likely no one will stop you if you fly at a non sanctioned field. Is it legal? I think that would be up to the government entities either federal or local depending on how hard they want to push it or how grievous the incident that brought it to their attention.
We are all big boys and have to take responsibility for our actions.
It seems weird that we are now on page three of responses to a question that has a very simple answer.
11-07-2012, 06:00 PM
#71
RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: stoneenforcer
true but dont exceed 400' per FAA
ORIGINAL: sensei
Oh hell, three years ago I sat on the AMA board in discussions of giant scale aircraft exceeding the 55 lb. rule and setting new rules for aircraft in the experimental category due to my heavy involvement with very large airplanes. So as I stated if you are not flying at a sanctioned club then it is your rules, your responsibility and your liability, so just use common sense.
Bob
Oh hell, three years ago I sat on the AMA board in discussions of giant scale aircraft exceeding the 55 lb. rule and setting new rules for aircraft in the experimental category due to my heavy involvement with very large airplanes. So as I stated if you are not flying at a sanctioned club then it is your rules, your responsibility and your liability, so just use common sense.
Bob
11-07-2012, 06:14 PM
#72
RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn
You are probably thinking of the AMA rule, which is an insurance rule, not any kind of law. Whether something is legal in the U.S. is a matter of whether there is a law against it or not, not whether the government ''wants to push it,'' and in the case of weight limits for models there is no such law. Perhaps Canada is different.
It seems weird that we are now on page three of responses to a question that has a very simple answer.
You are probably thinking of the AMA rule, which is an insurance rule, not any kind of law. Whether something is legal in the U.S. is a matter of whether there is a law against it or not, not whether the government ''wants to push it,'' and in the case of weight limits for models there is no such law. Perhaps Canada is different.
It seems weird that we are now on page three of responses to a question that has a very simple answer.
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/reg/
11-07-2012, 07:57 PM
#73
RE: Weight limit
Maybe you should start a build thread on this airplane so we can get to the hobby side of this thing and follow its progress without politics. What do you think?
Bob
Bob
11-08-2012, 05:30 AM
#74
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RE: Weight limit
ORIGINAL: Propworn
Read the post again and you have hit the nail on the head. The word ''model'' The FAA has left the definition of model up to the AMA if it falls outside this definition the FAA regulates it simple. If you think that the lack of a specific law will protect you from prosecution your sniffing glue big time. There is a whole section on Unmanned Aircraft Systems UAS on the FAA site you should read it before advising someone there are no laws or rules. If it’s not a model as defined by the AMA it is a UAS and is governed as such by the FAA
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/reg/
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn
You are probably thinking of the AMA rule, which is an insurance rule, not any kind of law. Whether something is legal in the U.S. is a matter of whether there is a law against it or not, not whether the government ''wants to push it,'' and in the case of weight limits for models there is no such law. Perhaps Canada is different.
It seems weird that we are now on page three of responses to a question that has a very simple answer.
You are probably thinking of the AMA rule, which is an insurance rule, not any kind of law. Whether something is legal in the U.S. is a matter of whether there is a law against it or not, not whether the government ''wants to push it,'' and in the case of weight limits for models there is no such law. Perhaps Canada is different.
It seems weird that we are now on page three of responses to a question that has a very simple answer.
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/reg/
11-08-2012, 08:54 AM
#75
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RE: Weight limit
read the faa regs issued this year. there is a weight limit, ceiling limit, ect for rc modeling set as national "guidlines" for us. however, i wouldnt put myself on radar if flying near particular airspaces. they just simply implimented common sense regulations. not sure how its enforced judicially.
ORIGINAL: Top_Gunn
OK, so give us a citation to a statute or regulation establishing a weight limit for models. Saying ''The FAA owns the airspace'' means nothing until the FAA makes a regulation, and they haven't done that yet. The OP asked for information, and I gave it. This has nothing to do with ''thinking about yourself'': I've never had a plane weighing more than 16 pounds and I don't expect that I ever will. Whether the absence of a weight limit is good or bad is not the issue here.
ORIGINAL: rgburrill
I am so sick of hearing this ''I don't belong to the AMA so I can do what I damn well please'' crap! [:@] Stop thinking about yourself and think about the eniter hobby in general. As stated in the US the FAA owns the airspace get over yourself!
I am so sick of hearing this ''I don't belong to the AMA so I can do what I damn well please'' crap! [:@] Stop thinking about yourself and think about the eniter hobby in general. As stated in the US the FAA owns the airspace get over yourself!
