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Thread: The Swastika


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    The Swastika

    I have a great book on German aircraft: Warplanes of the Luftwaffe, Aerospace publishing 1994. It has hundreds of pictures, 3 views, etc. Every single one of the aircraft depicted in this book are sporting a swastika on the tail. I have long wondered why German WWII ARF's are never depicted with a Swastika. The new Top Flite FW190, for example. No swastika. In fact, the tail is almost completely devoid of any markings. Check out the new Hangar 9 Bf109: no swastika but they did put a howlingly incorrect German cross on the tail. Why is this? My suspicion was that it was nothing more than political correctness. So, I called both Top Flite and Hangar 9 to ask them about it and my suspicions were confirmed. Apparently, if a company produces an aircraft correctly marked with a swastika they can look forward to unpleasant backlash like hate mail or possibly even a lawsuit. So, if you're after scale accuracy you are going to have to do it yourself. I would love to know your thoughts on this.

    PS: I'm of Dutch descent, not German. The panzers rolled over us, too...

  2. #2

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    RE: The Swastika

    Well, I would say it is not politically correct, especially in Europe. In Germany it is downright illegal to display a swastika. I got a couple of sets of swastika stickers for my Flyzone Focke-Wulf FW 190 Select Scale from Horizon Hobby. You must find them with a search as they are not displayed anywhere on their site. HH has a huge German facility/warehouse. Personally, scale accuracy on a model airplane is to me, very important,Iseenothing wrong in displaying correct markings on a German WWII warbird. None of my flying friends are offended by them, even the one Jewish gentleman who flies with me. In fact he has a balsa and ply FW 190 and he has swastikas on that one.

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    RE: The Swastika

    We really don't want to get into our thoughts on the politics of this. Politics is verboten, so to speak. RCU has a set of rules that excludes politics and what laws a country chooses to write pretty much defines the politics of that country.

    Let's not share our thoughts on the law, ok?
    Good flying wit ya today

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    RE: The Swastika

    A company I used to work for does business internationally and when we had visitors our practice was to fly the flag of the visiting country below our American flag out front as a courtesy. We once had visitors from Japan so we put their flag up there. The problem was they happened to be visiting on December 7th. I guess nobody really thought about it... Doh! We got nasty phone calls and even a bomb threat. Anyway, at the risk of being banned, I really don't see political correctness as politics, per se. All I want is historical accuracy with my historical models. It's a shame really...

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    RE: The Swastika


    ORIGINAL: svanvalkenburg

    A company I used to work for does business internationally and when we had visitors our practice was to fly the flag of the visiting country below our American flag out front as a courtesy. We once had visitors from Japan so we put their flag up there. The problem was they happened to be visiting on December 7th. I guess nobody really thought about it... Doh! We got nasty phone calls and even a bomb threat. Anyway, at the risk of being banned, I really don't see political correctness as politics, per se. All I want is historical accuracy with my historical models. It's a shame really...

    If a company doesn't want the flak they are possibly likely to receive due to a historical emblem, then that is their business. If you want accuracy, go for it. no one is stopping you
    Thomas W.
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    RE: The Swastika

    I'm with ya on the political correct nonsense, BUT, I was working a club booth at an airshow many years back. We displayed a bunch of planes and natureally there was a FW190 done all up real nice. I was selling raffle tickets and this old man came up me and my partner hollaring and pointing at that FW190. We finally understood he was complaining about it and demanded we take it away. We didnt and he finally wondered off still complaining to anybody that would listen. It appears he was jewish and didnt take kindly to that plane. We had to keep an eye out for him later. Thats when the old guy that was helping me said the war is over. He fought in the pacific and said he held no ill will towards japan. We had a little talk later on about some of his experiences but it didnt last too long.
    Edwin

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    RE: The Swastika

    Plane and simple...it is illegal to diplay the swastika in some countries...as RC is international...it is easier not have the swastika.
    If it were me and it just might as I have been looking the new FW-190 over I'll put the swastika on myself....it dosen't change a thing not to have it

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    RE: The Swastika

    I guess the swastika is so bad because of the heinous crimes committed by the Nazi regime, right? The Japanese were certainly no slouches in the atrocity department, though. So why not Japanese planes without the meatballs?
    Or, if the swastika is that bad, shouldn't even modelling a German aircraft from that period be a no-no?
    Invertmast: You're right - if a company doesn't want to include a swastika it's their business and no one is stopping me from making it accurate but that's not my point. My point is I can buy any warbird and it's 100% (more or less) accurate unless it's German, then it's only 99% and I have to do the other 1% myself. The way I see it, that's messed up.
    Jetmech: Sure it changes something - now you have to go out and buy the rest of your airplane. You have to admit that's at the very least inconvenient.
    Chucksolo: thanks for the heads up on HH... I'll need that when my Meister 109 gets finished and it's time add markings.

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    RE: The Swastika

    So what is your real problem... the fact you have to buy a sticker of a swastika and apply it to the model to make it right (and FYI, no "arf" from Horizon or Tower/GP is really "accurate" when it comes to scale, they are "close" and thats about it), or that the swastika has a bad rep (even though it was around for a long time before the nazi regime came around)..
    Thomas W.
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    RE: The Swastika

    People get very emotional about symbols. It doesn't help that the swastika is still in use by neo-nazis and some white supremacist groups. I'm sure many older Jews and eastern Europeans feel the same way about the swastika as a southerner does about a burning cross or a white hood, or a Mexican about a Social Security card.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

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    RE: The Swastika


    ORIGINAL: jester_s1

    or a Mexican about a Social Security card.
    I was going to comment, BUT................

    Kevin

    Club Saito Member #780

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    RE: The Swastika

    Before ARFs it wasn't a big deal, every kit you ever bought had a complete decal set for the full scale look. I still have several sets of German decals, even some from American planes. The world has become touchy feely huggy Kissee and if anyone is offended for any reason you must stop whatever it is that is upsetting to that one person. Just a sign of the times. At least if your spending your money on an ARF they should toss in the correct decals for you to use if you feel inclined. Maybe ask you when you placed your order?
    I prefer to be called a White Anglo Person but to date no one has paid any attention to my desires, I'm still called that crusty old fart. That's when people are being nice to me!
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    RE: The Swastika

    And then there are the so politically correct haters that they yell at you for having a WW-I Nazi plane.

    Those who fail to study history are bound to repeat it.

    I used to be historically correct politically indifferent too. Then I watched Schindlers List and now I have a very dificult time building anything of German WW-II origin.
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    RE: The Swastika

    I have read that modern textbooks used in schools are having the swastika airbrushed out of any photos from the time period. Seems silly to me.

    Also the swastika is not illegal to display in Germany, under every circumstance. Because the big German Technical Museum has all kinds of WWII stuff on display and the aircraft still have their swastikas on the vertical fins.
    ~Tom~

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    RE: The Swastika

    I built a Bucker Jungmeister from dave platt plans and put a zenoah g23 in it. But when it came to paint it , i wrestled with the decision to paint it in the silver and grey or green with the
    red swastica on the verticle fin. After much thought and advice from my wife, i wound up painting it in the Swiss colors yellow and red.i'm glad i did, it was easier to see and most of all, i got alot
    of compliments. I sometimes wonder if if the same ( compliments ) would have been given if i had gone with the swastica. Oh well....

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    RE: The Swastika

    I found photos of a captured IL-16 that was flown by The Finnish and A Gladiator Flown by the Swedish sporting the swastika. As I recall they were a different color but the photos are in black and white. If your going to do a scale plane make it scale, if you don't care if it's true scale do as you please. An ME-109 and the other German planes showed a Swastika, how well would you score at scale masters without one on your plane or have they gone soft too? Can you plead you don't like the history behind a symbol?
    This topic came up once before on RCU a few years ago. The same conclusion was drawn then, use it or don't use it, another choice thing. The manufacture and distributor can do as they wish too. I don't fly ARFs, choice, I can put anything I want on my planes.
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    RE: The Swastika

    ORIGINAL: svanvalkenburg

    I guess the swastika is so bad because of the heinous crimes committed by the Nazi regime, right? The Japanese were certainly no slouches in the atrocity department, though. So why not Japanese planes without the meatballs?

    Because the "meatball" was the internationally recognized and accepted National symbol for the country same as the "star and bar" for the USA, the "target' for the UK or the cross for the country of Germany. The swastika, on the other hand, was a political symbol of an ideology.

    Don't kid yourself on atrocities or go pointing fingers either. Our good ol' USA developed a special love of the newly developed napalm during WWII and while we largely tried to avoid civilian casualties and collateral damage in the ETO we made a special effort to purposefully incinerate over 25 million civilian men, women and children on the Japanese mainland long before we decided to use a nuclear weapon. Dwarfs the Holocuast by comparison, as huge of an atrocity as that was in itself.

    No country has been sinless in wartime or national expansion.
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    RE: The Swastika


    ORIGINAL: MajorTomski

    And then there are the so politically correct haters that they yell at you for having a WW-I Nazi plane.

    Those who fail to study history are bound to repeat it.

    I used to be historically correct politically indifferent too. Then I watched Schindlers List and now I have a very dificult time building anything of German WW-II origin.
    I agree, Those who dont know their history are doomed to repeat is failures. The german people during WWII were stunned when they found what was happing in the camps but they choosed to look the other way during that time because what we had done as the result of theWWI armastinance that set their world in poverity paving the way for a person like Adolph Hitler to take command of thier future.
    Dont let die, let it be talked about. Lest we forget.

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    RE: The Swastika


    ORIGINAL: da Rock

    We really don't want to get into our thoughts on the politics of this. Politics is verboten, so to speak. RCU has a set of rules that excludes politics and what laws a country chooses to write pretty much defines the politics of that country.




    Yep. It's political correctness ... and you aren't even permitted to talk about the morality of "political correctness". Doing so is not "politically correct".

    Do they call that a "circular argument"?

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    RE: The Swastika


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle


    ORIGINAL: da Rock

    We really don't want to get into our thoughts on the politics of this. Politics is verboten, so to speak. RCU has a set of rules that excludes politics and what laws a country chooses to write pretty much defines the politics of that country.




    Yep. It's political correctness ... and you aren't even permitted to talk about the morality of ''political correctness''. Doing so is not ''politically correct''.

    Do they call that a ''circular argument''?
    RCUniverse's rules are clear, but also go on to explain that this isn't the place to discuss politics. There are other forums for political discussions.

    For example, there really isn't anything about models in your short shot in this post. Also, for example, the previous post.... "Dont let [it] die, let it be talked about. Lest we forget." And the one before it......Don't kid yourself on atrocities or go pointing fingers either. Our good ol' USA developed a special love of the newly developed napalm

    RCU rules are an attempt to provide model forums. When politics is allowed, the threads degenerate into the type discussions that we see here. As the RCUniverse rules state, there are other places to discuss that stuff. Discussing models on those other places would be just as disruptive as politics are here.
    Good flying wit ya today

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    RE: The Swastika

    The following is taken from RCUniverse's rules. They are rules you agreed to follow when you registered.

    TOPICS OF DISCUSSION:
    Although discussion forums encourage a wide range of opinions, please keep your posts focused on the topic of the thread and related to the forum you are submitting your message.



    RCUniverse's chosen language is English. All other languages are subject to removal.

    Each forum has a different topic, so what is appropriate in one forum or thread may not be appropriate in another.

    RCUniverse.com is focused on R/C. Accordingly, topics must remain R/C related.

    We do not permit political, social, religious, or other off-topic discussions. There are many places online to express your opinions on issues outside of RC so "RC" Universe is designed to be a place to talk just about RC.
    Good flying wit ya today

  22. #22
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    RE: The Swastika

    I'm no down on my knees person to anyone.The mods are right guys use your head and not your heart.
    Watch out for the ground eh?

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    RE: The Swastika

    Personally I thought the Luftwaffe had some of the best color schemes and insignias of WWII.  Their lack of nose art was indicative of their uptight collective psyche that was at the root of their evil empire.

  24. #24
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    RE: The Swastika

    A scale model aircraft with correct markings is far less offensive than a prime time TV interview with Charles Manson sporting his swastika tattoo! Or the jail shows on TLC featuring white supremacist gangs. Society is twisted and broken!
    Damn huskies ate it!

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    RE: The Swastika

    On the model topic, I think that scale planes should be built with their original scale look. It's not like we build WWII warbirds for the gentle and pleasant flight characteristics; we build them to commemorate the history of that time and to re-enact what happened in those battles. As such, building a model from our enemy with the markings of their ideology at that time makes sense. Civil war re-enactors don't shy away from the confederate flag or the rebel uniform, offensive as it is to some, because that's the history they are remembering.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!


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