What side of the fence are you on?
11-14-2013, 07:33 AM
#26
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A little of both.
Mainly I build to fly, But then there are exceptions to the rule, a little extra to reinforce landing gears in the even of a hard landing for example… I don't want to fix my plane every week.
But … that being said. I also believe that "lighter flies better" is only true to a point. I build planes, not kites, and when the wing loading gets to a point where the plane acts more like a kite than a plane… that is too light for me in most cases. Especially with our field being as windy as it is during the summer.
11-14-2013, 08:22 AM
#27
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Last edited by maekju; 11-14-2013 at 08:34 AM.
11-14-2013, 10:18 AM
#28
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I do reinforce the LG blocks more then the plans show
11-14-2013, 11:33 AM
#29
My Feedback: (-1)
I'm really hard on an airframe and have broken a Roar in half and it was built stock. The weak spot is in the fuse right along the TE of the wing. Rick added the reinforcement in that area. I just can't use one of my YS engines in it!! I have a NIB Fox .40 saved for it. More then enough power.
11-14-2013, 11:41 AM
#30
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I keep saying I'm not going to build a new plane this year but I'm pretty sure I will build a Roar and do the mods Rick did in his build thread.
I wasn't aware one could ever have 'too much' engine.
11-14-2013, 12:43 PM
#31
I'm with GB and others on this point. I'm amazed at some of the weak points on the better-quality ARFs. I've built three Ultra Stick 40's, an early yellow and two newer red ones, and all had butt-glued gear and aft wing mounts. After proper fixing (keying in the mounts and pinning with dowels), the build time approached that of a kit. They do fly great tho, and handle slam-and-go arrivals and abrupt pull-ups from a power-on dive.
1. Check all glue joints and reinforce when needed.
2. Reinforce wing and landing gear attachment points.
3. Use a Sullivan Tail Wheel on all tail draggers.
4. Fuel Proof the firewall.
5. Epoxy in the tail even with those 2 scrawny bolts that some ARFs have now.
6. Replace all nylon 1/4 X 20 wing hold bolts ...most are brittle in the ARF's
I do this regardless of the weight it adds. Although these steps don't add a lot, but I don't try to lighten the load so to speak. I have noticed that the recommended engine sizes have a - (dash) in them. The light planes go to the left and the heavy ones are from the right.
11-14-2013, 01:05 PM
#32
My Feedback: (3)
I do almost all of these mods on every ARF
1. Check all glue joints and reinforce when needed.
2. Reinforce wing and landing gear attachment points.
3. Use a Sullivan Tail Wheel on all tail draggers.
4. Fuel Proof the firewall.
5. Epoxy in the tail even with those 2 scrawny bolts that some ARFs have now.
6. Replace all nylon 1/4 X 20 wing hold bolts ...most are brittle in the ARF's
I do this regardless of the weight it adds. Although these steps don't add a lot, but I don't try to lighten the load so to speak. I have noticed that the recommended engine sizes have a - (dash) in them. The light planes go to the left and the heavy ones are from the right.
1. Check all glue joints and reinforce when needed.
2. Reinforce wing and landing gear attachment points.
3. Use a Sullivan Tail Wheel on all tail draggers.
4. Fuel Proof the firewall.
5. Epoxy in the tail even with those 2 scrawny bolts that some ARFs have now.
6. Replace all nylon 1/4 X 20 wing hold bolts ...most are brittle in the ARF's
I do this regardless of the weight it adds. Although these steps don't add a lot, but I don't try to lighten the load so to speak. I have noticed that the recommended engine sizes have a - (dash) in them. The light planes go to the left and the heavy ones are from the right.
I was reading and thinking 'he must have read my mind' and then I saw the last on the list!
Wait a minute!
I used to be one of those guys who watched his plane self destruct to protect the plastic 1/4-20 bolts!
More often than not, I go with 10-32 these days. If it is bad enough to break a 1/4-20 there is lots and lots of damage. Well, that is probably size dependent.
11-14-2013, 01:43 PM
#33
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From a Helicopter perspective, I definitely build mine to fly.
Going against all advice I have read, (to use blue Loctite) I always use the strongest red Loctite in my heli builds.
I also use hot glue to secure any loose wires, eg Servo leads and gyro leads.
I reinforce the receiver aerials against vibration and wind with heat shrink tube
The tail booms are held in place by plastic clamps tightened with screws.. However for insurance, I glue mine in place with high strength epoxy..
It works for me. I have over a dozen helicopters built this way, in more than 3 years of regular flying some of these helis have over 1500 flights and nothing ever fails.
Sure, if I crash and need to replace parts, it will be more difficult, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it..
Going against all advice I have read, (to use blue Loctite) I always use the strongest red Loctite in my heli builds.
I also use hot glue to secure any loose wires, eg Servo leads and gyro leads.
I reinforce the receiver aerials against vibration and wind with heat shrink tube
The tail booms are held in place by plastic clamps tightened with screws.. However for insurance, I glue mine in place with high strength epoxy..
It works for me. I have over a dozen helicopters built this way, in more than 3 years of regular flying some of these helis have over 1500 flights and nothing ever fails.
Sure, if I crash and need to replace parts, it will be more difficult, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it..
Last edited by Rob2160; 11-14-2013 at 01:46 PM.
11-14-2013, 02:03 PM
#34
"I used to be one of those guys who watched his plane self destruct to protect the plastic 1/4-20 bolts!"
I started changing out the bolts on the Ultra Stick 60 because of its ability to shed a wing without warning. I have also changed out the normal wood dowels for ones made of oak. I figure if that plane is losing a wing it's because of something else...my high wings don't eject unannounced.
I started changing out the bolts on the Ultra Stick 60 because of its ability to shed a wing without warning. I have also changed out the normal wood dowels for ones made of oak. I figure if that plane is losing a wing it's because of something else...my high wings don't eject unannounced.
11-14-2013, 02:13 PM
#35
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Going against all advice I have read, (to use blue Loctite) I always use the strongest red Loctite in my heli builds.
11-14-2013, 02:21 PM
#36
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As Johnny Cash would say .......... I walk the line !! LOL
Built for many years before I started flying. I don't care whom you are, if you build to fly and you do fly, eventually you will crash. Whether it be equipment failure or pilot error. Simple, simple.
Built for many years before I started flying. I don't care whom you are, if you build to fly and you do fly, eventually you will crash. Whether it be equipment failure or pilot error. Simple, simple.
Last edited by Granpooba; 11-14-2013 at 02:24 PM.
11-14-2013, 03:52 PM
#37
Thread Starter
Bob
11-14-2013, 03:56 PM
#38
My Feedback: (3)
"I used to be one of those guys who watched his plane self destruct to protect the plastic 1/4-20 bolts!"
I started changing out the bolts on the Ultra Stick 60 because of its ability to shed a wing without warning. I have also changed out the normal wood dowels for ones made of oak. I figure if that plane is losing a wing it's because of something else...my high wings don't eject unannounced.
I started changing out the bolts on the Ultra Stick 60 because of its ability to shed a wing without warning. I have also changed out the normal wood dowels for ones made of oak. I figure if that plane is losing a wing it's because of something else...my high wings don't eject unannounced.
ROFLOL!
Oh the memories!
I only had that happen ONCE - and it was a maiden flight!
The brand new ST-61 buried itself in the shoulder to the nearby highway as the wing floated away.Learned to NEVER reuse nylon bolts that have ridden through a mishap.
I have to admit to doing things different with high wings, including the oak dowel and CA hardened socket that sometimes gets reworked with a metal sleeve.
YMMV
Last edited by Jim Branaum; 11-14-2013 at 03:59 PM.
11-14-2013, 04:06 PM
#39
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I have arf's to fly AND I enjoy kit and scratch building. I fly what I have built because that is why I build them (see my Phoenix 1 thread under classic pattern). I love this hobby and and don't think less of anyone if they don't or can't build. Building my own plane just gives me options to bring something different to the field that you can't get elsewhere. I got my first RC plane in 1974 (I was 14yrs old) and it was a Styrofoam trainer (Cessna Cardinal) bought from Bob Walker's (Robart) Hobby shop in St. Charles IL. My next plane was a kit as the arf's just weren't there back then and the building bug just stuck with me.
11-14-2013, 04:32 PM
#40
My Feedback: (-1)
I'm the one that says too much power is just about right but some years back when I was building a lot of Roars I had a then new on the market MDS .58s that needed to be broken in. One of the few engines I ever bothered to break in but they needed a lot of fuel run through them before they would even run, if then!! I found out later they required low nitro or FAI fuel, they didn't like nitro at all. Anyway, that turned out to be way more engine then a Roar wanted to handle. I have seen them flown with little .25 engines. I used nothing but the LA .46 and it was a lot of engine for the plane but the extra power was good in the climb and glide event. On a stock build just add some extra wood in the weak spot of the fuse about an inch in front and behind the TE of the wing. These are fun fly planes and borne to die. You can build and fly one in about 12 hours if you needed to.
11-14-2013, 05:46 PM
#41
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Like someone else said, you ain't gonna build it strong enough to survive a crash, not a hard landing, a crash. That being said, ya might as well build it as light as you can. At least that way it will fly like a dream until... So yeah, I build to fly.
11-14-2013, 05:53 PM
#42
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I build to fly, what else is there. I do not build light or heavy, I build appropriate to the aircraft. But on that note I did build a Waco, used their wood sizes and the such, and actually cart wheeled it one day and only a small piece of wingtip broke, definitely over built. Build appropriate, power appropriate, and fly appropriate, to and for you.
11-14-2013, 06:09 PM
#43
Thread Starter
That's a bit of a silly question is it not? Who builds to crash?
I build to fly, what else is there. I do not build light or heavy, I build appropriate to the aircraft. But on that note I did build a Waco, used their wood sizes and the such, and actually cart wheeled it one day and only a small piece of wingtip broke, definitely over built. Build appropriate, power appropriate, and fly appropriate, to and for you.
I build to fly, what else is there. I do not build light or heavy, I build appropriate to the aircraft. But on that note I did build a Waco, used their wood sizes and the such, and actually cart wheeled it one day and only a small piece of wingtip broke, definitely over built. Build appropriate, power appropriate, and fly appropriate, to and for you.
Bob
11-14-2013, 06:25 PM
#44
My Feedback: (2)
You know, I've followed a few of your builds… I think I've learned at least a couple things from them.
One thing I've always wanted to learn… and I'm not sure I know how to go about learning it, is understanding the forces being placed on the body between the wing and the tail. If there is anyplace on a plane that feels like its being overbuilt I tend to think its the body, and its this area. but I don't really know how to tell how to build this section safely… i.e. what is needed. for example.. I've ripped wings off planes in flight, and inspecting the wreckage said to myself "yup that was a weak joint", and I've damaged landing gears with rough landings…..but I've never broken a planes body in flight with a maneuver, and I've also never broken a tail, or had an engine fly off without the rest of my plane…. so something tells me the forces at play here aren't as strong as we think, and we probably tend to overbuild our bodies and our tails. Maybe we don't build to crash.. but we might overbuild b/c we don't know or understand the forces at play…
11-14-2013, 09:04 PM
#45
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Statistically I have to agree with you.. I just don't want to crash because something came loose in my helicopter that could have been avoided by using stronger glue..
11-15-2013, 04:57 AM
#46
Thread Starter
You know, I've followed a few of your builds… I think I've learned at least a couple things from them.
One thing I've always wanted to learn… and I'm not sure I know how to go about learning it, is understanding the forces being placed on the body between the wing and the tail. If there is anyplace on a plane that feels like its being overbuilt I tend to think its the body, and its this area. but I don't really know how to tell how to build this section safely… i.e. what is needed. for example.. I've ripped wings off planes in flight, and inspecting the wreckage said to myself "yup that was a weak joint", and I've damaged landing gears with rough landings…..but I've never broken a planes body in flight with a maneuver, and I've also never broken a tail, or had an engine fly off without the rest of my plane…. so something tells me the forces at play here aren't as strong as we think, and we probably tend to overbuild our bodies and our tails. Maybe we don't build to crash.. but we might overbuild b/c we don't know or understand the forces at play…
One thing I've always wanted to learn… and I'm not sure I know how to go about learning it, is understanding the forces being placed on the body between the wing and the tail. If there is anyplace on a plane that feels like its being overbuilt I tend to think its the body, and its this area. but I don't really know how to tell how to build this section safely… i.e. what is needed. for example.. I've ripped wings off planes in flight, and inspecting the wreckage said to myself "yup that was a weak joint", and I've damaged landing gears with rough landings…..but I've never broken a planes body in flight with a maneuver, and I've also never broken a tail, or had an engine fly off without the rest of my plane…. so something tells me the forces at play here aren't as strong as we think, and we probably tend to overbuild our bodies and our tails. Maybe we don't build to crash.. but we might overbuild b/c we don't know or understand the forces at play…
Bob
11-15-2013, 06:43 AM
#47
My Feedback: (2)
If you have followed my build threads then you already know that I have done a great deal of airframe lightening, development, and testing, even through destruction, with that said, I design my fuselages to resist torsional loads above and beyond everything else, that is why I use verticals on the fuselage sides between the longerons and opposing diagonals on the tops and bottoms again between apposing diagonals. 3X8" X 3X8" medium density balsa sticks glued with thin and medium CA is more then strong enough to get the job done even on a 43% aerobatic IMAC type aircraft. You see, torsional: (twisting loads from aileron impute) will break a fuselage faster then anything else I know of so clear straight grain medium density balsa with no nicks or cuts cross grain in the longerons and good solid bond lines are essential to a strong lightweight fuselage, or at least those are my findings.
Bob
Bob
