Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Why is this beginning to look like just another oil thread?

While your question has been answered in several different manners there are other issues to consider. CA is NOT UV resistant. That means your glue will begin to fail if you store it in any UV environment. CA also is hydroscopic which means it will suck the water out of the air if in an open bottle. Oh, once it has done either of the previous things, it becomes less fun to use. If the CA is used in an environment where there is a lot of movement, be warned that it tends to create good glue joints but they tend to be somewhat brittle.

I build with Titebond, but keep an opened (but capped) bottle of thin under a can for 'special' stuff. It generally lasts around 6 months in my shop before I have to pitch it.

The sanding issue is huge, and the clamp and set time can be a PITA, but over all I prefer TB to CA.

No matter what your choices are, remember that more glue does not solve a poor fit problem which thick CA hides.

j.duncker

My Feedback: (2)

If you do go down the CA route I strongly recommend you set up some positive extraction on your building area. I used a cheap inline fan with flexible hose that I could move to wherever I was using CA.

Many modelers are now so sensitized to CA that they can not use it.

sjhanc

My Feedback: (3)

After decades of kit building using CA's, Titebond, and Epoxies of all kinds I discovered Gorilla Glue Brand adhesives about 15 years ago. I built test structures with it (the brown glue) and then tore them apart. It turned out to have far superior holding strength than all the others although its use always required clamping. A few years later they began making a new formula (white) that sets quicker and really speeds up building. Both of these formulas require clamping of parts to prevent the foaming action from floating them apart. Now I have also begun to use Gorilla glue CA's (thin and gel) as it is a long trip to a hobby shop for me to buy hobby adhesives. Gorilla CA's are at least as good as any hobby brands. You can use accelerator sprays with them. Don't buy large containers, only what you can use up in a 2 month period as they get hard in the container.

I fly giant scale planes with large gas and brushless motors and have never had a firewall pull out or landing gear mount glue joint failure with Gorilla glue as has happened with hobby epoxies and CA glue. I am currently rebuilding a P 51 that was assembled 20 yrs. ago with epoxy that has softened and turned to tar allowing the hard parts to be pulled apart without damage to the parts.

A big advantage of this glue is almost no smell. You need to used rubber gloves to keep it off skin as it can't be cleaned with solvents.

If you use gorilla glue you can coat 1 of the parts with glue, then spray water mist in the air and pass the other part through the mist. Clamp them together, wait 1 hr. for the brown glue or 20 min. for the white. Excess glue will foam out of the seams, after it is hard it can be easily pulled off. The glue joints sand easily making finishing a snap. For sheeting foam wings put an L shaped bead on 2 sides then a credit card will scrape the glue for complete coverage. When you run out of glue to scrape put another L shaped glue line inside the first. Don't work the card back and forth as the glue will kick too soon. Use toothpicks through each layer of a foam layup to prevent the parts from sliding apart. Don't ask how I found this out. Using the brown glue you have 30-40 minutes to assemble the shucks, skins and cores and weight it down. I use stacks of magazines for this.

I used less than a 4.5 oz bottle to build a 92 inch foam wing and a large fuselage. The final wt. with radio, 80cc eng., and all other equipment, LESS covering was 17lbs.

[email protected]

My Feedback: (29)

I have used Titebond on a firewall . It was a Four-Star 120. But I would much prefer epoxy in this area. I just put that out there to show how strong Titebond is.
I hate working with CA. It can burn the nostrils when sanding or cutting glued areas

[email protected]

My Feedback: (29)

I use that stuff too. I am currently in a build. The plane was in a box for about 2 years. Well the mice started knawing at the stuff in the box. A lot of foam saved major damage. But where the varmints ate the wood , it's a great fix !

numb3rulz

Give Loctite Go2 a try. Smells nice,thick like a medium CA, gels so it doesn't run fast and 30 minutes to set. It says it takes 24 hours to cure but I tested it at 2 hours and broke the 3/16 ply and not the joint. Half the price of CA

CafeenMan

I now use polyurethane glue for laminating if I have it on hand. It's way more convenient than epoxy and more than strong enough. But more often than not it's gone bad in the bottle any time I reach for it so it's not economical for me. I don't use it for many things and even the smallest bottles go bad for me.

I don't have to wet the wood for it to "go off". It's so humid where I live I just apply the glue, put the wood together and it foams up like it's supposed to. I haven't had any joints fail. I never use it for anything where the joint will be visible because it's really difficult to make neat joints with the stuff and I haven't found any solvent that cleans it up wet or dry.

I've tried MEK, Acetone, Lacquer thinner, Mineral spirits, Xylene, Naptha, Alcohol and Epoxy thinner. Nothing touched it.

steph69

lots of good advice thanks guys, I think I am going to just enjoy the build and get some experience from it then on the next build I will start experimenting with titebond ,then I will have some experience of CA to compare it to.
But I have took on all the advice above and it is very much appreciated so thanks.
I bought this kit over a year ago but I was to much of a beginner to start, so I put it away and had some fun with my ARFs, fixing damage reading up on forums and upgrading my other planes I am know looking forward to it with confidence. I was never worried about the building process I was more worried about the servos, engine and pushrod setups and reading more building threads wasn't helping but I have really enjoyed the hobby over the past 2 years and want to start building kits so I can have something a bit different from the usual ARFs.

thanks steph

sensei

Gorilla glue really is great stuff as already stated, I like to use it on my wing cores and horizontal foam cores when gluing in tube sockets, servo rails, spar extensions, and root ribs because of it's expanding quality prior to gluing down the skins with laminating epoxy and vacuum. Picture 1 shows a top of core view that has been lightened and prepared for the process of gluing in all the goodies, and picture 2 shows the bottom of the core after all the goodies have been glued in with Gorilla glue under vacuum, and picture 3 shows how fast it goes from 1-3

Pic.1Pic. 2pic. 3

Bob

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

It appears you are embedding a carbon rod and tube. Or is that a servo wire tube? What are those 3 structures on the bottom of photo #2?

You and I have a slightly different view of foam wings skinned with epoxy. I think I have already said that I love Gorilla glue for skinning foam wings because (after cutting a wing open) I discovered the glue penetrated the foam deeper than epoxy does and because I just edge sand the skins and tape them together and then sand after the cure.

CafeenMan

Except that you wouldn't use CA or Titebond to attach wing skins to foam. I really do like polyurethane glue but I've stopped buying it because most of it goes bad on me - even the smallest bottle I can buy. If I had a specific use for it that would use the better part of a bottle I would certainly buy it - skinning a foam wing for example. But I would never use it for general construction - way too messy for me. If you ever look at my builds you're rarely going to see glue anywhere.

CafeenMan

Did you cut those cores or was that a kit that came that way? Are cut-outs cnc or cnc hot-wire or how is that done?

MinnSpin

My Feedback: (40)

Fully fitted, including G26 (minus 16 oz. fuel), it weighs just about 13 lbs. First flights were really "mushy" so I chopped off one bay from each wing and that dramatically improved things. Now it's officially a 74" profile plane. I have a picture of this in my hanger, and can send you more if needed.

MinnSpin

Stickbuilder

I use Titebond II applied with a small artists paint brush. No more breathing problems. Plus a longer work time. It is plenty strong.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

sensei

Those are carbon fiber tubes that cap over the ends of the wing tube, they are placed on the top and bottom of the cores with a series of .25" dia. holes between them allowing the higher density Gorilla to bridge from the upper tube to the lower tube. Through much testing of my own I also found that the Gorilla glue penetrates deeper as you state however comes in a little heavier in the end and not as rigid a bond line or wing as with epoxy, so for those reason the epoxy is the best way to go for my builds.

P.S. The three structures you referred to are the servo rail pockets, after skinning I run a mini surface router around the IML that leaves the pockets for the servos.

Bob

sensei

This was one of my prototype designs so I make templates from paneling purchased at Home Depot and hand cut the cores with a hot wire.

Bob

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Wow Bob, I completely missed the CF tubes you are using to eliminate the stress riser created at the end of the wing tube. I too am at the point where I only use epoxy to sheet foam. For one, my pylon airplane could not be done any other way. I run full span spar caps and the entire area from the root out to the retract mounts has glass reinforcement. would not be able to do this with any other adhesive..

MinnSpin

My Feedback: (40)

As suggested, CA can be really nasty. Thin CA is particularly hazardous, bonds instantly - really nasty on skin and if you're going to use it, please wear safety glasses. As a rule, I wear gloves when using glue or epoxy as it saves cleanup. The properties of Foam Safe CA are noticeably different, perhaps because less caustic. But skin will bond just as well and even better when used with kicker, so be careful. Whether CA or Titebond or Elmer's or Gorilla, glue is made for specific applications. PS -my experience with CA soaked wood is that it will not bond.

Lifer

My Feedback: (1)

MinnSpin,

I asked because I am upscaling one of my favorite sport planes, the NotForSale. 15 inch chord, 3.5 inch ailerons, 60 inch span and a 48 inch length from spinner to tail. Targeting about 9 pounds. As far as glues are concerned, I'll use epoxy on all joints involving birch ply, c/a on rib-to-spar and LE and TE joints, and aliphatic resin glue for sheeting. Hoping to do climbing inverted flat spins.....

sensei

Agreed, I would not even mess with any other way then epoxy in the application you speak of.

Bob

MinnSpin

My Feedback: (40)

30 minute epoxy is used on most builds, but even that becomes brittle over time especially on airframes flown through winter months. The profile was a long build of 400 hours. I now limit scratch building to fan fold foam designs, which are quicker to complete and equally fun to crash, I mean fly.

2walla

My Feedback: (10)

I will share this trick... Balsa usa brand ca kicker will remove uncured gorilla glue residue..

Hossfly

Sure Glad I started reading this forum. Many good ideas, and some neat tricks I will try as time passes by. I have been building models of all types since I was 5 years old. Next Feb. 19, I turn 79. I have been through many glue-types. I sure wish the old cements such as Testor's formula B were still around. Sig is the same stuff, but Sig just has to make a tube that is so big in the neck that cement runs every where unless it is standing straight up, or plugged each use and that takes too much time. That just takes too much attention between squeezes. As others have stated, CA can make you horribly sick like a strong FLU or such. For years I just thought it was simply me. I finally found out that CA was the culprit. I finally found out to get by 90% of any problems. Try to have a fan blowing by me onto the gluing area. Use as little CA as one reasonably can, makes a big difference. Go to a dollar-store and get the bags of 8-10 +/- small tubes of CA. There you can get some of those, like 8-12 packs for a dollar.
The "squirts" are less BIG and easy to work with. Using the larger containers, have a pin to stop them up after each application.
I finally settled down to using CA for most tacking, white glue for most building and epoxy for all hard-woods and some balsa.It works well with for me. Still I use a number of different mfgers. types and get by so-so. I don't do much in the ARF department. I like to build my own, from original to kit to whatever my little brain conjures up.
For you electric types, there are many old style rubber kits that can be beefed up for RC flying, even CL,
One item that I will present as there are some "notams"above that some use epoxy for sheeting a foam wing. Very good, however if one has some extra time, a much lighter wing can be made using white glue. Once the foams are all ready to cover, mix up some typical white glue of your preference and have your top and bottom covering ready, along with the original forms. I add a little water to the thicker glues. Brush on the white glue on one side then settle it into the former. Have a flat table and all the old magazines, books, etc that you think needed. Weight it all down flat. Come back tomorrow and remove the top cover. You WILL ALMOST GET SICK as it will look like it is rotten. Turn it over, again nice and flat. Do the next cover sheet. Check it each day until it is really-really dry. That wing will be as strong as a foam wing can get. You will probably need 2 weeks to get it completely dry, but it will be one strong wing. Been There Done That.
If you are like me, and care to make frame-work fuselages one little help is that many poor frames are made because no one did it like it should be done, especially many years ago. Lay up a side, only be sure the first one is for the other side!! If you wish tack it together with small drops of CA. Now cut up a bunch of 1/64 plywood triangles, whatever size you care for. Keep the frame straight and level. Glue a triangle on at each joint. Glue at this time = your choice. I pin down using white glue, anything other than "School Glue". Your call depending on what you want. When both fuselage sides are done, set up for a top and bottom. Pin it down and square it all up, and braced.
Put in the cross pieces. Same procedures with the ply triangles. I have several large models that are over 20 years old with G-28s and they are still flying. Kinda ugly but they fly!

Thanks all of you for the above discussions. Great information.

Horrace D. Cain
Hopefully your new AMA Executive Director this Jan. 01 2015. BTW, You did vote did you not?

sensei

I also love stick building and the use of gussets, the only real difference between me and allot of builders is I design my airframes based almost solely on extreme lightness and all bond lines that utilize thin and medium CA as the primary adhesive, this includes firewalls and all landing gear plates.



Bob

dspeers

My Feedback: (22)

I have had issues with non-RC use of gorilla glue failing over time due to stresses parallel to rather than perpendicular to the glue line (wood deck chairs). Both urethane glues and CA are very inflexible once dry, and some folks indicate issues with CA over time. I am wondering how urethane holds up over time. Have been hesitant to try fliteskin due to this concern. Anyone have any experience with durability of urethane over years?