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Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Old 03-05-2005, 07:57 PM
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pgitta
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Default Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

I sure hope someone can give me some advice on this one. I'm stumped. It's a long and confusing story and i'll try to be as clear as possible:

A couple years ago I bought a Futaba 6EXA package with Tx and Rx on channel 47. Worked great.

then...I wanted to try helis so I bought a Futaba 7CAP package which came with channel 50. Worked great, but since I had a couple other receivers using ch 47 already, I decided to swap the 6EXA's 47 and the 7CAP's 50 so now the 7CAP was on 47 and all was well.
Sold the 6EXA with ch 50.
(originally the 7CAP's freq.)

Then last month the 7CAP s**t the bed and went dead and I had to send it in for warranty repair. Well, I didn't want to get into any hassles with the wrong crystal or battery or whatever coming back after the repair, so i removed them.

Got the radio back and went to find my ch 47 crystal that I was so worried about them losing or changing and now I can't remember where I put it!

Well, (told you, long story) while the 7CAP was being repaired and not knowing how long it would be, I wanted to still buzz around at lunch time with the SS so I bought a cheapo Futaba 4-ch package which came with ch 52.

I thought, no problem, just put the ch 52 Tx crystal from that radio in my 7CAP like I did before and swap the ch 47 Rx crystal with the new ch 52 one also and bingo, I'd be in action. Wrong. didn't have more than 2 feet range with the antenna down and maybe 20 feet up.

So I swear and curse Futaba for a bum repair but then decide to try something. I leave the ch 52 Tx crystal in the &CAP and put the ch 52 Rx crystal BACK in the receiver it came with (cheapo radio) and flew nearly out of sight after a range check, no problem.

So now I suspect my old receiver although it was working fine the last time I used it.

So I get another little park flyer Rx I had laying around and put the ch 52 it it and it seems to work, So I go out to the field, can't get the damn 4-stroke to fire, fuss with it all day, give up, come home, get it started and taxi around the neighborhood until I notice the engine surge intermittently when I'm about 40 yards away. I say wait a sec and check the range, and it's maybe 30 yards total.

GOOD thing the engine wouldn't start at the field!

So now I'm back to suspecting the 7CAP again and the repair but then why does it work fine with the new RX!?

these are all high freqs so what's the deal? Any ideas would be appreciated if you're still awake.



Old 03-05-2005, 09:49 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Does Futaba make a 4-channel FM system?
I believe the 3 and 4 channel systems are AM, and the crystals are incompatible with FM.
I have several 6 channel Futaba FM systems, but can't recall seeing a 5 or fewer on FM.
Hitec does only FM stuff. But some of their crystals won't swap between model series.
Old 03-05-2005, 11:05 PM
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Stick Jammer
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Does Futaba make a 4-channel FM system?
Yep.

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...I=LXEFJ4**&P=0
Old 03-05-2005, 11:13 PM
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Stick Jammer
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

pgitta,
Hard to say exactly what is causing your problems but you may want to take a gander at the following info before you sell another transmitter with the wrong crystal.

Special Notice about Frequency Changes-
*72MHz- Low band channels 11 to 35; High band channels 36 to 60.
Receiver crystal channels (11-35 or 36-60) Within Each Band
Can Be Changed, and Do Not Require a retuning of the receiver.
*72MHz Frequency Band (low or high) for the receiver Can Not Be
Changed from low to high band, OR from high to low band without
sending it into Futaba Services for retuning.
*50MHz, 72MHz, 27MHz and 75MHz Frequency Bands Can Not under any
circumstances be interchanged with each other. 72/75:receiver Must
be sent in for retuning to the appropriate band. 50/27: can't do.
*50MHz, 27MHz and 75MHz receiver crystals Can be changed anywhere
within the respective bands. There are no high or low bands such
as the 72MHz band has.
*Transmitter Crystals Can Not be changed to another channel except
by a licensed service center. It is against FCC regulations, and
illegal for the user to change a frequency determining component
of a transmitter. If the radio is not retuned, it can be a hazard
spectators, modelers or property, and void AMA insurance coverage.
*Check with the local R/C club for the frequencies used in your area.
Old 03-05-2005, 11:30 PM
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pgitta
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

i wish it were that simple. The new Tx the crystals came out of is a [link=http://www.futaba-rc.com/radios/futj40.html]4YF[/link] and it is FM.

Stick Jammer, don't worry. I did not violate any rules swapping the first crystals as the change applied to your rule #1. and no I haven't been hacking inside the radio either.

Anyway, I'm back where I started. Not knowing.

But thanks to all for the input.
Old 03-06-2005, 12:14 AM
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Stick Jammer
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

A couple years ago I bought a Futaba 6EXA package with Tx and Rx on channel 47.
then...I wanted to try helis so I bought a Futaba 7CAP package which came with channel 50. Worked great, but since I had a couple other receivers using ch 47 already, I decided to swap the 6EXA's 47 and the 7CAP's 50 so now the 7CAP was on 47 and all was well.

Sold the 6EXA with ch 50.
(originally the 7CAP's freq.)
Just to be clear, these are not my rules. Your above statements would pertain to the last item listed, not the first.
Old 03-06-2005, 05:43 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

ORIGINAL: pgitta

I sure hope someone can give me some advice on this one. I'm stumped. It's a long and confusing story and i'll try to be as clear as possible:

A couple years ago I bought a Futaba 6EXA package with Tx and Rx on channel 47. Worked great.

then...I wanted to try helis so I bought a Futaba 7CAP package which came with channel 50. Worked great, but since I had a couple other receivers using ch 47 already, I decided to swap the 6EXA's 47 and the 7CAP's 50 so now the 7CAP was on 47 and all was well.
Sold the 6EXA with ch 50.
(originally the 7CAP's freq.)
Hopefully you informed the person to whom you sold the 6EXA that you had ILLEGALLY changed the frequency so he could factor in the cost of sending it to an authorized technician for tuning.
Then last month the 7CAP s**t the bed and went dead and I had to send it in for warranty repair. Well, I didn't want to get into any hassles with the wrong crystal or battery or whatever coming back after the repair, so i removed them.

Got the radio back and went to find my ch 47 crystal that I was so worried about them losing or changing and now I can't remember where I put it!

Well, (told you, long story) while the 7CAP was being repaired and not knowing how long it would be, I wanted to still buzz around at lunch time with the SS so I bought a cheapo Futaba 4-ch package which came with ch 52.

I thought, no problem, just put the ch 52 Tx crystal from that radio in my 7CAP like I did before and swap the ch 47 Rx crystal with the new ch 52 one also and bingo, I'd be in action. Wrong. didn't have more than 2 feet range with the antenna down and maybe 20 feet up.

So I swear and curse Futaba for a bum repair but then decide to try something. I leave the ch 52 Tx crystal in the &CAP and put the ch 52 Rx crystal BACK in the receiver it came with (cheapo radio) and flew nearly out of sight after a range check, no problem.

So now I suspect my old receiver although it was working fine the last time I used it.

So I get another little park flyer Rx I had laying around and put the ch 52 it it and it seems to work, So I go out to the field, can't get the damn 4-stroke to fire, fuss with it all day, give up, come home, get it started and taxi around the neighborhood until I notice the engine surge intermittently when I'm about 40 yards away. I say wait a sec and check the range, and it's maybe 30 yards total.

GOOD thing the engine wouldn't start at the field!

So now I'm back to suspecting the 7CAP again and the repair but then why does it work fine with the new RX!?

these are all high freqs so what's the deal? Any ideas would be appreciated if you're still awake.
Here's mine, although I suspect you may not like it. You should not be swapping transmitter crystals. FCC regulation is that this should only be done by an authorized technician. It's not a Futaba issue, it's the FCC. When the transmitter crystal is changed the radio should be checked to confirm its output is correct. You never said what was wrong with it, but sending your 7CAP in for repairs WITHOUT the crystal and battery prevented the service center from testing two components that could possibly have caused the failure.
Old 03-06-2005, 08:33 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Ok,, different view point. It is possible to swap Tx crystals and have the system function normally. However it sounds like you have a problem and might have confused it by swapping crystals. You can buy extra Futuba crystals and or if you prefer sent the tx in and have someone convert it for you. I have sent in rec.'s for repair and the same rec's came back, "repaired" twice, but was still broken. I don't know what was done to it or perhaps just looked over and returned. But I am not at the point of "not repairing rec's.". When I have a rec. issue I just purchase a new rec. I have at least 5 rec. on the shelf that possibly could be repaired, but their cost is so low compared to crashing a big model.

I would reco you get a KNOWN good rec and TX. Then fly that. Then switch only 1 component,, such as the rec. and use the KNOWN GOOD crystal. This way you are making only 1 change. Prior to flight you should range check with the engine running. Don't discount battery switches and defective batteries can also cause problems. This is why you must start with a known good system and then only change 1 item. I would also reco,, you not repair receivers. I have never (in 37) years had a crystal go bad, but many receivers. Only 1 tx ever went bad and 2 crashes from buss bars in batteries failing.

If you swap rec,, you can reuse your crystal in the test rec. with little probability of the crystal being bad. Hope this helps you sort all the 'stuff' out.. Jim
Old 03-06-2005, 10:13 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Jim,
You can NOT legally change a transmitter crystal to another frequency. Period. It's against FCC regulations and jeopardizes safety, which is what I think pg is experiencing.

Try putting in a crystal on the original frequency and I think you'll be fine. Crystals are cheap enough, from now on simply change the receiver crystals.
Dennis-
Old 03-06-2005, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

ORIGINAL: jimcork1

Ok,, different view point. It is possible to swap Tx crystals...
When I had my Yamaha YZF-600 it was "possible", and quite easy, for me to go 120 MPH on the nearest interstate. Unfortunately, as the local trooper explained to me, it was not legal, and perhaps not so safe (even though the highway was empty). The same goes for changing transmitter crystals in the US. It's possible, but not legal, and not particularly safe.
Old 03-06-2005, 09:06 PM
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pgitta
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

************** Hopefully you informed the person to whom you sold the 6EXA that you had ILLEGALLY changed the frequency so he could factor in the cost of sending it to an authorized technician for tuning. ***************


Jim,

thanks for the reasonable reply. I had thought twice about even asking this question here for fear of getting lectured by some purist and sure enough I got one.

I'll say just this. If I have a high range channel 50 and swap a channel 47 crystal in it, do my range checks, and get a perfect result, I'm going to fly, and there will not be one damn bit of risk to you legal eagles or your airplanes.

If switching the Tx crystal is such a horrible crime, they shouldn't make it plug in from outside the radio where it's accessible to anyone. It should be soldered to the PCB.

Somewhere out there no doubt there's a mattress forum, and no doubt some poor slob is getting lectured as to the seriousness of his crime at removing the original tag.

Furthermore, I choose to fly in the middle of nowhere, miles and miles from the nearest club field, for the very reasons of not wanting to hear a legal sermon from some guy who thinks he's Chuck Freakin' Yeager because he flies a toy airplane.
Old 03-06-2005, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Yes, you got a lecture, because what you are doing, changing tx crystals, is wrong.

There's more to safe radio operation than a simple range check. I watched a 1/4 scale model crash 3 weeks ago on its first flight. Range check worked fine, but he got all sorts of glitches once it was in the air. He managed to get it back to the runway, but not in one piece.

You never did answer whether you did or DID NOT inform the buyer that you illegally changed the crystal. I wonder if he also flies in the middle of nowere? I wonder if anyone's plane has been shot down by the radio you illegally changed? People thinking about buying second hand transmitters should keep this thread in mind. At the very least, compare the crystal number to the one on the radio. Even better, send it in for a complete check before trusting your plane to it.

It's nice that you have justified breaking the law in your own mind. The value of RCU is that people can learn here. Hopefully others reading this post, who might not have known, and who have respect for their fellow modellers, have learned that there is a reason for the FCC regulation that transmitter crystals should only be changed by an authorized technician.

No doubt you will have another insightful reply. Please do read the RCU Policy statement (that red text just above the text box) BEFORE you flame me a second time.
Old 03-06-2005, 10:14 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

I would certainly like to know the "reason for the FCC regulation....", since transmitter crystals ARE interchangeable everywhere on the globe except in the US.
Hitec transmitters even have a slot in the battery compartment for a "spare crystal"..
There's nifty thumb recesses on the transmitter crystal slot, to permit easy removal.
Obviously Futaba and Hitec et al aren't changing a global design for the "odd-man out" US.
Old 03-06-2005, 10:37 PM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

No doubt you will have another insightful reply. Please do read the RCU Policy statement (that red text just above the text box) BEFORE you flame me a second time.
LOL!

"Ahh haave siened"

you seem to be up on the law. Could you reccommend who I should turn myself in to first

The FCC or RCU?

Damn. I did it again. I'll turn myself in to the FCC once and RCU twice.

I must be punished.
Old 03-06-2005, 10:44 PM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

ORIGINAL: Tall Paul

I would certainly like to know the "reason for the FCC regulation...
Futaba's FAQ on the subject: http://www.futabarc.com/faq/service-faq.html#q2
Old 03-06-2005, 10:52 PM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Subpart E—Technical Regulations
Sec. 95.645 Control accessibility.
(a) No control, switch or other type of adjustment which, when
manipulated, can result in a violation of the rules shall be accessible
from the transmitter operating panel or from exterior of the transmitter
enclosure
.
(b) An R/C transmitter which incorporates plug-in frequency
determining modules which are changed by the user must be certificated
with the modules. Each module must contain all of the frequency
determining circuitry including the oscillator. Plug-in crystals are not
considered modules and must not be accessible to the user.


Alert! Alert! Alert! FUTABA in violation of federal law!!! for ILEGALLY providing a removable crystal so flyers can ILEGALLY change them.

This is all just too ILLEGAL

I assume you will be penning a letter to Futaba immediately informing them of their FCC violation?
Old 03-07-2005, 12:32 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

I think I'm a bit confused after "scanning" through this thread. I have a Hitec Eclipse 7. It has a removeable/changeable RF module which is channel 47, 72.730 Mhz. Now I thought one of the nice features of this Tx was the fact I could change the channels by switching the module (which I have not done yet, so far all my planes and helis are channel 47). So from the last post here (legalities) I am safe to change the module, without bringing it in to an authorized dealer. Otherwise what's the purpose of the module? Is the original poster of this thread in violation, because his Tx did not have a module, but changed the crystal? If thats the case, then whats the difference between changing the crystal, and changing a module? Isn't that basically the same thing? Doesn't the module that I can change, have the crystal to change the channel? Do the laws/rules need to be changed? I guess I don't see the difference between the two. Someone please "clarify" this for me. Thanks in advance for clarifying.
Joe
Old 03-07-2005, 04:45 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Dustoff

Yes it is perfectly legal to switch your Tx frequency with a single frequency module or a synth module without retuning. The reason is and the reason this type module was first delveloped for use in our Tx's is that the module contains all the Frequency determining circuitry within the module and therefore when changing the module there is no need to retune. In fact a module by itself can be sent to a sevice facility for a checkup and alignment without even including the Tx.

If I may I would like to address the reason why crystal swapping (crystal only, not modules) in Tx's is aginst FCC regulation in the US and if I am not mistaken I beleve in Canada also. As unlisensed users of the 'hobby bands' we are listed by the FCC as secondary users. Now we have a situation in North America that many other parts of the world do not have to contend with. You see the hobby bands are shared by lisensed meaning paid exclusive users of frequencys that are interspersed between the hobby channels. They are half way between each of the channels. This is precious little spacing.

These commercial users are listed as primary users which means if we intrude on them we have to cease and desist. I don,t beleve the FCC cares if we shoot each other down but watch out should we step on the toes of the commercial users. This could even impact our future free and unlisensed use of the band. Now I don,t beleve those folks in many other parts of the world have quite this situation and true for instance crystal swapping in the UK is freely practiced apparently. A simple crystal swap certainly can have the potential to detune the Tx sufficiently to impact the primary users while still not apparent on a range check or even impacting an adjacent hobby channel.

As to the reason many non module Tx's may have accessable crystals is with the world market where swaping is freely practiced it would be uneconomical to produce different case designs just for the North American market.

Just one last thought: When it comes to the RF environment in North America, there is no "middle of nowhere".

John
Old 03-07-2005, 07:25 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

As to the reason many non module Tx's may have accessable crystals is with the world market where swaping is freely practiced it would be uneconomical to produce different case designs just for the North American market
Then I could just say it's too inconvienent to follow that rule just because I'm in the U.S. , so I'll ignore it.
Old 03-07-2005, 09:01 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

some guy who thinks he's Chuck Freakin' Yeager because he flies a toy airplane.
Toy airplanes are powered by rubber bands. Glow or gas powered R/C planes are far from any "toy" category. As mentioned in this thread repeatedly, it's quite easy and within FCC regulations to change out the Rx crystal and leave the Tx as is.
Old 03-07-2005, 09:18 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Thank goodness you're about 2 states away from me.
Old 03-07-2005, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

John
Thanks very much for the explination! I do apreciate it.
Old 03-07-2005, 10:09 AM
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pgitta
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

Thank goodness you're about 2 states away from me
Right. I could cause some serious damage to your county.

All bullcrap aside, any reasonable person would agree:

#1. one cannot simply explain away the fact that the Tx manufacturers make and sell them in direct violation of the FCC law which tells me the FCC couldn't care less that they're doing it. These kinds of laws are made in the hope of discouraging every Tom, Dick, and Harry from swapping stuff all over the place without proper range checks and such and potentially causing a problem. This is similar to woodworking where every publication loudly states one should NEVER remove the blade guard from their tablesaw when in reality, they are often impractical and I'd bet 90% of professional woodworkers use them off and take a little more care while they work. The FCC. Futaba, and the rest know darn well people are changing their Tx crystals and if you read Futaba's FAQ you can even read between the lines "We cannot [recommend] changing crystals" Translation, "Can you change them...uh...go ahead but if someone asks me, I'll deny ever telling you to"

#2 Many here put much faith in the "certified technician" If they're so qualified and professional, so many here would not have stories of how they're Tx is never working right when they get it back. So if the "certified" tech smoked a little too much dope that day, is my Tx setup any safer than if I swapped a lousy crystal and did a range check?

#3 it all boils down to common sense. If you start swapping stuff and throwing the plane into the air without testing, etc. yeah, that's bad, but on the same note, these are not nuclear reactors were dealing with here. People should take care not to be such extremists.

and...some feel they've been "flamed" by me? well let me tell you, there are ways so subtly flame people with provocative phrases such as "I suppose you informed the buyer of your radio that you ilegally changed the crystal so he could add in the expense of getting it retuned" insinuating I am a thief and dishonest with buyers. (I choose not to tell you if he knew or not. so there. you can wonder)

and if you're so worried about safety, the next time you have an urge to pass a line of cars on a two way highway to save yourself 30 seconds to your destination, or tailgate, or walk on the ice with your hands in your pockets or whatever.

you're way more of a menace than I'll ever be with my "illegal" crystal.
Old 03-07-2005, 12:55 PM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

pgita, I seldom take exception to the way some like you have taken callus disregard for others. when you violate the law like you admit doing you are no better than the thief who steals from others. I do hope that others in your area realize what a poor example you are and make sure you do not fly at their flying sites as you have voided your insurance by such violations putting them all in jeopardy.
Old 03-07-2005, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: Tx Rx crystal/freq mystery

pgita, I seldom take exception to the way some like you have taken callus disregard for others. when you violate the law like you admit doing you are no better than the thief who steals from others. I do hope that others in your area realize what a poor example you are and make sure you do not fly at their flying sites as you have voided your insurance by such violations putting them all in jeopardy
.

Ok, thanks.

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